Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


What music are you listen...
by zeca
Today at 09:50 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
Today at 02:56 PM

German nationalist party ...
Yesterday at 10:31 AM

New Britain
February 17, 2025, 11:51 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
February 15, 2025, 04:00 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
February 14, 2025, 08:00 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
February 13, 2025, 10:07 PM

Muslim grooming gangs sti...
February 13, 2025, 08:20 PM

Russia invades Ukraine
February 13, 2025, 11:01 AM

Islam and Science Fiction
February 11, 2025, 11:57 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
February 06, 2025, 03:13 PM

Gaza assault
February 05, 2025, 10:04 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding

 (Read 21317 times)
  • 12 3 ... 5 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     OP - May 13, 2015, 07:28 PM

    Reading through these forums, there seems to me to be a disconnect between those who are interested and invested in the modern critical scholarship regarding Islamic origins (zoatar, zeca, zimriel (the 3 Z's lol), and recently Hassan and happymurtad inter alia) and the rest who seem to still want to analyse Islam according to the traditional framework (life according to the Sira, Muhammadan authorship of the Quran with suwar split according to the Noeldekian model, birthplace in and importance of Mecca, rashidun Caliphs as pious Muslims, qibla towards Mecca after Muhammad's arrival in Medina, etc.). I would like to kind of set this thread out as a simplified intro to some of the more arcane topics discussed in this forum. To summarize:

    1. Muhammad came from Yathrib and had nothing to do with Mecca. Mecca was not at all a notable location for anyone in his lifetime or for about 50 years thereafter, in fact it does not appear in the historical record until the fitna of ibn al-Zubayr, but for a very contested reference from the historian Herodotus as "Mecorabia" in the 5th century BC
    2. The Quran was the work of multiple authors, some writing after Muhammad was dead, some having already written their work before Muhammad came on the scene; whether or not Muhammad was the author of any suwar is not at all clear, and the book itself is not about him. Much of the supposed biography of the Prophet (battle of Badr, his birth during the "year of the elephant", battle of Uhud, the relationship between the "muhaajiruun wa 'anSaar", etc.) are "midrashic" fictions created from the Quran in order to explain it. Rather than the suwar being revealed in the context of these events, these events were made up and placed into his sira in order to explain opaque verses in the Quran.
    3. Muhammad's life has been consciously re-written to model Moses in the Bible, in particular in his failure to reach the Holy Land in his lifetime. The existence of Abu Bakr as the 1st caliph lacks early substantiation and as does the existence of Aisha, who seems legendary in character. Abu Bakr is written in the sira to take the role of Joshua in the Bible, leading the faithful to the Holy Land that Muhammad failed to reach in his lifetime.
    4. Textual analysis of the Quran as well as outside attestation reveals (1) a text deeply influenced on the theological, linguistic, and narrative levels by Syriac Christianity in the 600's (2) The influence of texts that predate Muhammad (3) several layers of composition, with at the very least  Christian homiletic, half-way Muslim, and fully Islamicizing layers and (4) later redaction of existing surahs to make the more "Islamic."
    5. Muhammad was an apocalyptic prophet and led some type of a religious community based on the idea of jihad against sinners/unbelievers/hypocrites. They expected the imminent end of the world and in this belief were highly influence by the apocalyptic proto-Crusade being waged by the Byzantine Emperor Heraclius against the Sassanid Empire.
    6. Muhammad's religious movement was remarkably ecumenical and included amongst others different types of Christians as well as Jews. Jews seem to have had a prominent part to play in the movement and its apocalyptic expectations for the capture of Jerusalem from the Romans, and it seems possible that Muhammad was himself married to a Jew and was the focus of Jewish apocalyptic expectations.
    7. Muhammad's military campaign was focused, as was his movement, on Palestine and Jerusalem, and he died after having taken it by force of arms. There seems to have been a belief that he would rise from the dead/that the world would end before or at his death. Multiple traditions, Islamic and non-Islamic, report that he was buried only after his body began to stink, robbing his followers of any hope of a resurrection a la Jesus.
    8. Many of the Arab conquests had nothing to do with Muhammad, but were only later incorporated into an Arab empire claiming him as its religious founder. Muhammad's importance waned in the middle of the 7th century after his death and then rapidly waxed after the failed fitna of ibn al-Zubayr and the creation of the Meccan ideology.
    8. For about 50 years after Muhammad's death his importance declined rapidly. The religious authority of the empire was invested in the Caliphs themselves, not in scribes who interpreted the life of Muhammad. Muhammad and the scholars who study his "biography" only comes back into the limelight as the focus of the Arabs' religion after the failed fitna of ibn Al-Zubayr. Only towards the middle of the 8th century do the 'ulemaa' start to emerge as the final arbiters of Islamic law in the empire.
    9. The religious movement associated with Muhammad originally called themselves mu'minun, believers, and muhaajiruun, immigrants. It is not at all clear that they considered themselves to be a separate confessional identity in the same way modern Muslims do before the last decades of the 7th century.
    10. The qiblah remained fluid for the first century after Muhammad, and was only fixed on Mecca at a much later date. This can be traced archeologically by looking at early masaajid, whose qiblahs go in multiple different directions and only slowly converge onto Mecca in the 8th century.
    11. The hijra seems in early paleo-Islam to have been a duty on par with jihaad, and had nothing to do with leaving Mecca for Medina. Instead the "hijra" seems to have been from the arrid wastes of Arabia to the Holy Land of Palestine and Great Roman Syria (contemporary "Shaam" in Arabic).
    12. The first Arabs caliphs were not Muslims as we would think of them, many of them printed coins and propaganda with crosses on them, and they seemed to have been the ultimate religious authority in the primitive Islamic empire. The ulemaa' who interpreted the (largely fictitious) life of the prophet would only come to hold the religious power in the empire during the 8th century.
    13. The shi'at Ali was originally focused on his person alone, the linkage of Ali to the ahl-al-bayt was a later development. At least one Shi'i group existed which was focused on Ali's son through a slave woman, and not his progeny through Fatima Muhammad's suppossed daughter.

    These are just off the top of my head. Critical groupies (you know who you are), feel free to add more!

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #1 - May 13, 2015, 09:17 PM

    Great summary CJ ... do you have a source for item number 3?  That is a subject I am particularly interested in at the moment.  I think there is a connection between it and the 'mystical night journey' attributed to Peter the Iberian, a very famous and prominent monophysite Palestinian monk.  IMO, it looks very much like Q 17:1 is an attempt to give pilgrimage status to Mohammed-Moses in the same way that Peter the Iberian made a 'mystical night pilgrimage' to Jerusalem, because he refused to do a real pilgrimage at a time when the city was controlled by Chalcedonian orthodoxy.

    If this is right, then we have Mohammed visualized as making a 'night journey' from Mount Nebo, the location of Moses's death, combining these two stories.  Just as Peter the Iberian was prevented from making a real pilgrimage by the heretic Chalcedonians who dominated Jerusalem, so Mohammed was prevented from taking Jerusalem by the Byzantine powers (who probably, in actual history, killed him).  Thus like Peter he did make pilgrimage to Jerusalem, but it was via mystical night journey, allowing him to get the benefits of pilgrimage while opposing the actual temporal rulers.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #2 - May 13, 2015, 09:41 PM

    Thanks for this thread, CJ - very much appreciated.

    I have two hats when discussing Islam these days.

    1. Firstly my own personal views are more in line with modern critical scholarship and views expressed here by yourself, Zaotar and others.

    2. The other hat which I take in dialogue with Muslims and others who want to discuss reform and views that can challenge and offer more progressive alternatives to traditional Islamic doctrine. In this case I am not so interested in arguing the case of modern scholarship, since I am dealing with matters of 'faith' and 'belief' (not historical or scientific evidence) and seeking realistic steps towards more progressive and liberal views. In this case I accept the traditional models simply for arguments sake.

    Smiley
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #3 - May 13, 2015, 09:44 PM

    This forum certainly can accommodate both discussions.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #4 - May 13, 2015, 09:47 PM

    Thanks for this thread, CJ - very much appreciated.

    I have two hats when discussing Islam these days.

    1. Firstly my own personal views are more in line with modern critical scholarship and views expressed here by yourself, Zaotar and others.

    2. The other hat which I take in dialogue with Muslims and others who want to discuss reform and views that can challenge and offer more progressive alternatives to traditional Islamic doctrine. In this case I am not so interested in arguing the case of modern scholarship, since I am dealing with matters of 'faith' and 'belief' (not historical or scientific evidence) and seeking realistic steps towards more progressive and liberal views. In this case I accept the traditional models simply for arguments sake.

    Smiley


    This makes sense, as critical scholarship has never been a very productive path to reform and progress in Christianity and Judaism -- there is not much reason to think it would be different for Islam.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #5 - May 13, 2015, 10:59 PM

    Great summary CJ ... do you have a source for item number 3?  That is a subject I am particularly interested in at the moment.  I think there is a connection between it and the 'mystical night journey' attributed to Peter the Iberian, a very famous and prominent monophysite Palestinian monk.  IMO, it looks very much like Q 17:1 is an attempt to give pilgrimage status to Mohammed-Moses in the same way that Peter the Iberian made a 'mystical night pilgrimage' to Jerusalem, because he refused to do a real pilgrimage at a time when the city was controlled by Chalcedonian orthodoxy.

    If this is right, then we have Mohammed visualized as making a 'night journey' from Mount Nebo, the location of Moses's death, combining these two stories.  Just as Peter the Iberian was prevented from making a real pilgrimage by the heretic Chalcedonians who dominated Jerusalem, so Mohammed was prevented from taking Jerusalem by the Byzantine powers (who probably, in actual history, killed him).  Thus like Peter he did make pilgrimage to Jerusalem, but it was via mystical night journey, allowing him to get the benefits of pilgrimage while opposing the actual temporal rulers.


    Shoemaker makes this point forecefully IMO (I absolutely love his damn book, so good), "Death of a Prophet", 104, and 114-116 according to the index lol.

    I have never heard of Peter the Iberian, but this is fascinating. What are the primary sources on him?

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #6 - May 13, 2015, 11:40 PM

    There is a biography of Peter by a guy called John Rufus, which was originally written in Greek but has come down to us in Syriac and Georgian versions.  Here is an article about Peter, who was a very fascinating guy, an extremely prominent figure in Palestinian Christianity, who died around 490 CE:

    http://www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/sbf/Books/LA47/47209AK.pdf

    Here is a brief summary of his 'night pilgrimage,' which I can't find an original translation of on the interwebz (it's translated in the John Wilkinson pilgrimage book).  The reason he made the 'night privilege' is because he was ardently monophysite, and couldn't stand the Chalcedonian orthodoxy that had taken back control over the Jerusalem pilgrimage:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=DXAJAN5BB0MC&pg=PA78&lpg=PA78&dq=john+rufus+peter+iberian+wilkinson&source=bl&ots=hXm9ofEh_a&sig=4WBVRvyiEpDJv_SsqJfzyRtsBt0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=St1TVZmHOMLGogTj84GABw&ved=0CEoQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=john%20rufus%20peter%20iberian%20wilkinson&f=false

    Notice, btw, that Surah 17 ends every single verse with an end rhyme of "an," for all 111 verses.  *Except* the very first verse, 17:1, which relates the night journey, and which ends with "basiru."  It seems pretty clear it was separately added.  So why?  What point was it making?  Well, the next verse, 17:2, is talking about Moses.  And then it goes into how the Jews acted corruptly and were haughty, and so 'mighty men' (aka the Romans) smashed them at God's command ... twice.  There is a part about the Jews that I don't quite understand (17:8 ), but seems to be threatening the Jews that if they come back to Jerusalem they will get hammered yet again. Then you have verse after verse of fairly boring polemic through the end of the surah.

    So it seems like 17:1 was added to make a parallel between Mohammed-Moses, who tragically croaked on the east side of the Jordan, claiming that he had made a 'night pilgrimage' before he died, just like the great Palestinian monk who was likewise debarred from entering Jerusalem by the orthodox Christian heretics.  Why?  Because it's actually an ingenious way of dealing with what Shoemaker theorizes, which is that the Muhammad shockingly died (probably at the hands of Byzantine forces), devastating his followers, rather than leading them into Jerusalem as they had expected.  Well, as it turns out, Muhammad didn't 'really' fail to go into Jerusalem any more than Peter the Iberian did ... he made a night journey there.  So he didn't really fail, he just entered Jerusalem in a mystical, rather than earthly, way.  Just like Peter the Iberian.  Note, btw, this implies that the "al Masjid al Haraam" in 17:1 would probably be Mount Nebo, where Moses died, which Muhammad's Arab forces controlled at a very early juncture. Unlike Moses, Muhammad mystically made it across the Jordan, using the ingenious nocturnal pilgrimage device that had been used for Peter the Iberian. So this would be a late addition to the surah, designed to exalt Muhammad above that failure Moses, excusing Muhammad's catastrophic failure to enter Jerusalem.  Also, the same problem with the Jews, they were barred from entering Jerusalem because they were so corrupt and treacherous (17:2-8).  So wouldn't that mean Muhammad himself .... oh no, don't make that inference, see 17:1, he did enter Jerusalem after all, mystically!

    Such is my basic theory, which I think is very interesting ... doubtless I will learn that it has been published 73 times over though.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #7 - May 14, 2015, 12:34 AM

    a biography of Peter by a guy called John Rufus, which was originally written in Greek but has come down to us in Syriac and Georgian versions.  ... a very fascinating guy, an extremely prominent figure in Palestinian Christianity

    Guillaume Dye in that article you posted yesterday ("The Qur’ān and its Hypertextuality in Light of Redaction Criticism") seems to argue that the Georgian tradition of Christianity is effectively the Palestinian tradition, 400s-700s CE.

    So, Lection of Jeremiah: Georgian. Tbilisi A-144: Georgian. To which we can add Hoyland's addenda to John Moschus listed as a Greek source, concerning the new "midzgida" in Jerusalem: also preserved only in Georgian.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #8 - May 14, 2015, 02:26 AM

    I have more to add, but on a lighter note this is what I was thinking of when I wrote "the three Z's" lol

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0W6ufDtdS8

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #9 - May 14, 2015, 03:06 AM

     "(life according to the Sira, Muhammadan authorship of the Quran with suwar split according to the Noeldekian model, birthplace in and importance of Mecca, rashidun Caliphs as pious Muslims, qibla towards Mecca after Muhammad's arrival in Medina, etc.). " 
    I think that's a caricature !!!!.


    for me personally, i still stick to the traditional narrative, at least the " core Framework" not for theological reasons, but because this narrative is quite plausible,  I just assume that Muhammed was literate, and he was a member of early community that has some kind of Jewish, anti-trinitarian background.

    any one can come up with a theory, but it is hard to prove it.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #10 - May 14, 2015, 08:28 AM

    The traditional view is a just so story. It feels plausible because everyone is habituated to it, often violently.

    A war Lord gets praised and deaded outside Jerusalem though....

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #11 - May 14, 2015, 08:31 AM

    Does this war Lord, (what might have his name been, I think he was praised but that is a nickname) need to be thought of as a twin of Arthur?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #12 - May 14, 2015, 12:01 PM

    Quote
    Reading through these forums, there seems to me to be a disconnect between those who are interested and invested in the modern critical scholarship regarding Islamic origins (zoatar, zeca, zimriel (the 3 Z's lol), and recently Hassan and happymurtad inter alia) and the rest who seem to still want to analyse Islam according to the traditional framework

    Is this more of a disconnect between people who are from a muslim background and people who aren't? I imagine that the semi-mythical Muhammad of muslim tradition must have deep roots in the thinking of anyone brought up as a muslim. I'm from a Christian background that was really very mildly religious, to the point of being effectively agnostic, but it still leaves me with an image of Jesus that is hard to shake off. Intellectually I can accept that the historical Jesus probably bore little resemblance to the figure I was taught about as a child, but really that's still the Jesus of my imagination. It isn't that it's hard to reject the idea of miracles and the resurrection and so on, but at some level I think I still want the Jesus who didn't rise from the dead to look like my Sunday school image of Jesus. I can only look at the experience of muslims and ex-muslims from the outside, it isn't my experience, but I imagine something similar applies for their idea of the story of Muhammad.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #13 - May 14, 2015, 01:54 PM

    ^Its ironic that you say that.I was going mention how difficult it can be to reject the traditional view of early Islam as exmuslims.

    In my case,when I was a muslim,I had found it very troubling that the prophet of Islam could marry a child and kill hundreds of jews.So I was open to rejecting parts of the tradition that was considered authentic because of that.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #14 - May 14, 2015, 03:00 PM

    Great stuff guys  Afro This forum is turning into the Faculty of Islamic Theology and History, CEMB University.  dance
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #15 - May 14, 2015, 03:08 PM

    I agree Zeca and Skywalker.

    To a certain extent I can view the history of Islam in an objective dispassionate way, though I can never totally detach my personal & emotional involvement with it.

    Above all I am concerned about my Muslim family, friends & loved ones and am always keen to seek practical ways to help solve the problems caused by outdated, restrictive and divisive dogmas.

    Few Muslims will be able to take on board the findings of modern scholarship - at least in the short term - as it leaves little room for faith.

    So while I do personally accept (and am very interested in) such scholarship as a purely academic pursuit - I'm also keen to find practical ways of achieving a more liberal and universalistic Islam for those who believe in it and find comfort in it.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #16 - May 14, 2015, 03:31 PM

    The following is by an Amazon reviewer of a new book by AN Wilson "Book of the People"

    Anyone brought up in any society will have a huge number of similar things going on in their heads.

    Quote
    The author's purpose in writing this engaging book is to persuade people to read the Bible. It is cast in semi-fictional form . He explains why. L is a friend, real or imagined. The book is a 'guide' to the Bible . It takes the form of seven chapters devoted to the search for a historical Jesus; the Prophets; the Book of Job; the Gospels, and the idea of the Bible as a Book of the People. In the last chapter Wilson visits Ghent to see and discuss the famous Altarpiece.

    The title of this book has been chosen because the Bible has affected human life. Wilson points out that before the Bible became a book available to all, thanks to Luther, its contents were familiar as images carved in stone or painted on glass. Once it became known as a book there began the accusation it was not true. Today, he rightly says the Bible is unfamiliar to many. He argues that one reason for this is that there has been a tendency since the Enlightenment to think of the 'Bible in fundamentalist ways'.

    The Bible, it has been said, is very subversive and iconoclastic. It clearly appeals to the author who enquires into what the Bible is, what it means and how it works. He argues that the plodding fundamentalists of both atheist and religious persuasions are hopelessly wrong.

    As Wilson explains the Bible was written by thousands over centuries .The stories often contradict each other. He attacks those who argue the Bible is a 'shopping list of bossy assertions'. A sort of Koran to tell us what we must do and when. The Bible he says could not be more different. It does not give answers. Instead it 'nudges the imagination'.

    Wilson regards the Book of Job as a 'stupendous work of literature'. This chapter is a gem. He calls it the Bible in miniature. Given its unique beauty, Wilson is puzzled as to why the well-read and educated in the West have decided that the Bible is not worthy of their attention. In the book he says his friend L believed it was in part laziness. He quotes Dawkins as saying that the Gospels are ' ancient fiction'.

    This is an excellent, thought-provoking book that explores the power and beauty of the Bible. Not everyone will share the author's opinions but they should make the effort to understand them. A wonderful imaginative journey. Read it.


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #17 - May 14, 2015, 03:45 PM

    i think this is a red herring, last time i checked , Donner , Angelika and all the neotraditionalist are not Muslims, so somehow, i have to accept the revisionist approach, otherwise  I am dogmatic.

    unfortunately history is not an exact science, and some historians simply reject some evidence, if they don't agree with their narrative,  actually some people accept the traditions, when it portrait Muhammed in a bad way ( Massacre of Qurayza) , and dismiss any positive aspect as an Islamic propaganda.  i have the feeling some scholars are not really interested in understanding how Islam emerge, but they have an agenda to discredit Muhammad and the Quran as a forgery and unoriginal book.



  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #18 - May 14, 2015, 04:10 PM

    hatoush - I'd say that my point stands regardless of whether countjulian's or your view of early Islam is closer to the truth. People have predispositions to believe all kinds of things, because of their backgrounds or for other reasons, and it's natural to start looking for confirmation of what we're inclined to believe anyway. That doesn't necessarily mean the belief is incorrect, just that it's worth considering what our own, or other people's motives might be for wanting to hold that belief.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #19 - May 14, 2015, 04:24 PM

    some historians simply reject some evidence, if they don't agree with their narrative, actually some people accept the traditions, when it portrait Muhammed in a bad way ( Massacre of Qurayza) , and dismiss any positive aspect as an Islamic propaganda. i have the feeling some scholars are not really interested in understanding how Islam emerge, but they have an agenda to discredit Muhammad and the Quran as a forgery and unoriginal book.

    Historians rejecting evidence that doesn't fit their narrative - I can accept that - but I'm not convinced that there are many current academic historians in the field who have an anti-muslim agenda and aren't really interested in understanding how Islam emerged. The Robert Spencers and the like are different but I'd class them as pseudo-scholars anyway. If anything I get the impression that some of the academics go out of their way to avoid causing offence. I've also seen concerns mentioned in passing of academics not wanting to put students who come from muslim majority countries in a compromising position - and I'd imagine that could potentially be a real problem.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #20 - May 14, 2015, 04:49 PM

    i think this is a red herring, last time i checked , Donner , Angelika and all the neotraditionalist are not Muslims, so somehow, i have to accept the revisionist approach, otherwise  I am dogmatic.

    unfortunately history is not an exact science, and some historians simply reject some evidence, if they don't agree with their narrative,  actually some people accept the traditions, when it portrait Muhammed in a bad way ( Massacre of Qurayza) , and dismiss any positive aspect as an Islamic propaganda.  i have the feeling some scholars are not really interested in understanding how Islam emerge, but they have an agenda to discredit Muhammad and the Quran as a forgery and unoriginal book.


    I don't think Donner is particularly dogmatic, and I actually think almost no modern scholars have the agenda you describe ... if anything it's the reverse, the two biggest agendas driving non-Muslim scholarship on the Qur'an tend to be (a) recovering and pushing a more ecumenical, 'friendlier' Islam; and (b) creating dialogues with Muslim scholars while avoiding charges of Orientalism.

    I think the basic point is that analysis of religious history and texts should be the same across the board -- not making exceptions.  The fact is that Christianity and Judaism have been analyzed with critical intensity that vastly surpasses what Islam has yet gone through, and there is still great resistance to applying those same techniques in Islamic studies, despite how productive they have been shown to be.  Those who (like me) push for the application of such broader methods of critical analysis are admittedly sometimes doing so because they want to peel back 'traditional' interpretations that they dislike; Neuwirth, for example, seeks to recover an Islam that is deeply connected with, and compatible with, European tradition.  But it is a disservice to how critical scholars operate to treat this as the primary or dominant motivation -- most critical analysis is done for the opposite reason, because the texts are so fascinating and brilliant when studied by the methods of critical analysis.

    Take the example of 17:1 I discussed above (not saying it's right, btw, just as a methodological example), where I theorized that invoking the Palestininan monk's night journey and adapting it was an 'ingenious' way of solving a difficult theological problem, within a sophisticated literate and sectarian environment.  This Qur'anic ingenuity is lost when 17:1 is relegated to the traditional exegesis; then it becomes a strange and baffling bit of mystical weirdness that we just wave our hands at and say 'magical Eastern story about magical prophet.'

    Likewise, in Dye's new analysis of surah 19, he keeps emphasizing how sophisticated and original the composition is.  Yes it takes up old narratives (after all, it's telling the story of Mary), but it does so in a remarkably scholarly and clever way, demonstrating both broad erudition about existing Biblical tradition and also its creative and selective use for constructing a new textual composition.  The point is that this approach actually takes the Qur'an *seriously*, not as a compilation of garbled renditions of half-understood older stories that are repeated by an illiterate Hijazi prophet, but rather as a sophisticated and complex text composed by a sophisticated author in response to real-world challenges.  The same way we would for a Biblical text.  The failure to take the Qur'an seriously in this way has rendered it largely unintelligible, so that we default to speculations and stories crafted by much later tradition.  As Dye says:  "Hence the following dilemma: we cannot say that the general framework given by the Muslim tradition is right and, at the same time, take seriously the Qur’ānic text."
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #21 - May 14, 2015, 05:09 PM

    I think the “critical scholarship” as you are calling it, is mostly speculation without solid evidence. They are mainly pointing to absence of evidence rather than positive evidence. They do propose some interesting things to speculate over, but I do not know if we will ever know about any of it with real certainty.

    There may be firmer evidence buried deep within the sands of Arabia. And hopefully that evidence will stay buried until the Arabs are enlightened enough to look at it with an objective eye. But if that is the case then it will be long after all of us have died.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #22 - May 14, 2015, 05:24 PM

    I am sorry Tony, but I  just find your above post to be kind of ignorant and reductionist in the extreme. For one thing, if linguistic analysis has taught us anything, it's that many of the Quran's secrets lie in the verdant fields of Syria, Palestine, and Lebanon, id est the Syriac language, not in the 'sands of Arabia.' Reducing all of the Middle East to the sands of Arabia is reductionist and IMO ignorant in the extreme. Secondly, everything I wrote above is supported by ancient primary source material, be it written records and documents from the time, evidence from inside the Quran itself, coins, and archeology. There is plenty of evidence, the problem is it's fragmentary and somewhat confusing. Thirdly, there are many Arab scholars doing this type of work with a critical eye such as Imran Badawi, and right here on this forum Happy Murtad and Hassan in particular have been more than willing to lend their skills to our inquires. There are plenty of Arabs willing to look at the evidence with a critical eye, and even if there were not there's literally nothing stopping non-Arab scholars from looking at the evidence. I am sorry to be offensive but I just don't think your comment adds anything to this discussion, in point of fact I think it detracts and it borders on bigotry.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #23 - May 14, 2015, 05:24 PM

    " older stories that are repeated by an illiterate Hijazi prophet ", that's an example, the word umi in Islamic traditions, has two meaning, the widely used one illiterate, and another meaning " gentile" not Jews. obviously you know which one Muslims prefer :(

    your basic assumption  is : those guys from hijaz are too primitive to produce a sophisticated book , and that's fine, i am sure you have a good reasons to have this thesis.

    for me,( probably, because of my background), i prefer another theory, maybe we don't know enough about hijaz, maybe ,there was really a long Semitic traditions, where people thought about themselves as descendant of ishmael, maybe  Muhammed is a literate person, maybe there was other literate person with him, and it was a collective enterprise,   maybe we should include Arabia in it's late antique context.  maybe the biblical stories were a common knowledge at that time.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #24 - May 14, 2015, 05:28 PM

    But hatoush, where is the evidence for this. Mecca does not even appear in the historical record before Zubayr. Archeological digs have not been done there, but much has been done in the surrounding areas, and it reveals a total paucity of Christian or Jewish presence. Stories like the Alexander legend and the 7 sleepers of Ephesus which appear in the Quran were well known in the Hellenized Syriac language sphere, but not so much outside of it. It makes much more sense to locate the Quran here than in a city which for historical purposes did not exist until 50 years after Muhammad died.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #25 - May 14, 2015, 05:59 PM

    " older stories that are repeated by an illiterate Hijazi prophet ", that's an example, the word umi in Islamic traditions, has two meaning, the widely used one illiterate, and another meaning " gentile" not Jews. obviously you know which one Muslims prefer :(

    your basic assumption  is : those guys from hijaz are too primitive to produce a sophisticated book , and that's fine, i am sure you have a good reasons to have this thesis.

    for me,( probably, because of my background), i prefer another theory, maybe we don't know enough about hijaz, maybe ,there was really a long Semitic traditions, where people thought about themselves as descendant of ishmael, maybe  Muhammed is a literate person, maybe there was other literate person with him, and it was a collective enterprise,   maybe we should include Arabia in it's late antique context.  maybe the biblical stories were a common knowledge at that time.


    Hatoush I was saying that's *not* the correct way to interpret it, that we *shouldn't* look at it through the eyes of an illiterate prophet isolated from the world, giving mystical proclamations in the desert.  This brings up a key issue: The Islamic tradition has a very complex (to say the least!!!) attitude towards the broader culture of Late Antiquity, an attitude manifest in the Qur'an itself. On the one hand, it is clearly engaged with, and claims authority of, the older Biblical traditions; the Qur'an is crammed full of Biblical stories and situates itself within that tradition. On the other hand, Islamic tradition (much more so than the Qur'an itself) is adamant about having originated completely independent of any external traditions, purely as pre-existent revelation handed down by Jibreel to Muhammad. Its origins are illiterate and Hijazi when it comes to arguing for originality, but completely literate and connected to Late Antiquity when it comes to arguing for sophistication. It's not Western scholars who have peddled the story of Muhammad as illiterate prophet within pagan Mecca (although I must say many have been led into accepting this misleading picture)!!! That is Islamic tradition, which has sought to divorce the Qur'an from its late antique context. So when one recognizes that Islamic tradition has done this, and that the Qur'an certainly reflects a much higher level of sophistication and literacy than Islamic tradition has argued for (this is what I would call taking it seriously), including its many references to itself as actually a "Book" rather than a pure oral recitation, then one must ask *why* Islamic tradition did this, and what it was trying to move away from. Because that is Heilsgeschichte.

    It's not enough to simply decide that Islamic tradition gave a false picture of the Qur'an emerging in a provincial and primitive Mecca, in other words. We have to ask why it did that, and what else was produced by this ideology of situating the Qur'an's origins within a supposed illiterate pagan milieu, treating it as primarily a recitation rather than as a written text, etc.

    I don't really have a vested interest in whether Mecca was sophisticated or pagan or not in historical actuality. My interest is in recognizing two distinct methodological points: (1) that the Qur'an originated in a sophisticated late antique context, and is a sophisticated and literate composition within that context; and that (2) Islamic tradition has misrepresented the origins of the Qur'an, incorrectly arguing that it emerged in a pagan and illiterate context that was quite isolated from the great centers of late antique religion.  It's not enough in my book to turn Mecca into a sophisticated center of late antique religion -- perhaps that is true for the sake of argument -- because you still have to explain why Islamic tradition worked so hard to argue exactly the opposite.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #26 - May 14, 2015, 06:03 PM

    Quote
    Secondly, everything I wrote above is supported by ancient primary source material, be it written records and documents from the time, evidence from inside the Quran itself, coins, and archeology.


    I am actually pretty well read on the topic, I may not have read everything you have read and you may not have read everything I have read. Evidence from inside the Quran is entirely speculative seeing as the Quran is very vague and can be interpreted in many ways. The numismatic evidence is simply that there is no mention of Muhammad for the first 30 years or so after his death, like I was saying that is absence of evidence, not positive evidence. I have seen all the coins you are referring to, there are not 100s of Islamic coins with crosses on them, there are a handful that have crosses because they are mimicking a Byzantine mint, there are many reasons that could explain this, such as simply a desire to preserve economic and political stability in the newly conquered regions. And as for the archaeology, I assume you are referring to a mosque that was found in Israel where the Qibla is facing towards Jerusalem, big deal, that is hardly going to shake the foundations of the traditional narrative.

    Quote
    right here on this forum Happy Murtad and Hassan in particular have been more than willing to lend their skills to our inquires.

     
    What an earth has a bunch of atheists speculating about the origins of Islam on an online forum got to do with the kind of archaeological research that Arab countries will allow, promote, and fund in their countries?
     
    Quote
    There are plenty of Arabs willing to look at the evidence with a critical eye, and even if there were not there's literally nothing stopping non-Arab scholars from looking at the evidence. I am sorry to be offensive but I just don't think your comment adds anything to this discussion, in point of fact I think it detracts and is borders bigotry.


    There is nothing stopping non-Arab scholars from looking at the evidence? What planet are you on? Do you think if a Western archaeological team asked for permission from the Saudi government to conduct archaeological research at various sites mentioned in the early Islamic tradition they would allow that? (I am not talking about Mecca and Medina, but any site that is currently unoccupied) Maybe we could propose to dig up old, abandoned settlements in Saudi Arabia to see which way the Qibla is facing? Will the Saudis give us a permit to do that? Why do you think Christoph Luxemberg uses a pseudonym and blurs out his face on camera when discussing his work? Do you honestly think that if some written piece of evidence that blows away the traditional narrative entirely was found in Saudi Arabia, the authorities would not try to suppress it? And if they could not, do you think that the public in Arab countries would welcome it with open arms? No they would try to discredit it in any way they could.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #27 - May 14, 2015, 06:15 PM

    I am sorry Tony, but I  just find your above post to be kind of ignorant and reductionist in the extreme. For one thing, if linguistic analysis has taught us anything, it's that many of the Quran's secrets lie in the verdant fields of Syria, Palestine, and Lebanon, id est the Syriac language, not in the 'sands of Arabia.' Reducing all of the Middle East to the sands of Arabia is reductionist and IMO ignorant in the extreme.


    I was using the Classical definition of Arabia, which just means where the Arabs originally came from, including the desert parts of Syria, Iraq, Jordan, etc. Places like Lebanon are extremely built up and urbanized, it is difficult to dig up much below the existing cities. But what is the linguistic evidence that shows the secrets of the Quran come from there anyway? Are you suggesting that the Arabic of the Quran is a northern dialect? What exactly was the dialect of Arabic that was spoken in the Hejaz at the time of Muhammad? Does anyone even know? I don't think they do....
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #28 - May 14, 2015, 06:25 PM

    Nobody really knows, but what's clear enough is that the Qur'an is written in a rasm that includes several features that deviate markedly from its 'Classical Arabic' reading ... most obviously the lack of a medial glottal stop, and the seeming lack of any trace of irab in the rasm, both features being associated with Northern Arab dialect in the Levant. Did these same features penetrate to Arabic dialects spoken in the Hijaz?  And if so, why was the Qur'anic rasm written to reflect such dialectal features, rather than Classical Arabic features?  What to say about that is very difficult, of course, but either the text didn't really represent the reading, or the readings don't really represent the text.

    Take a simple example, mu'min. In the rasm, it is written mwmn, with a long u, rather than a glottal stop preceded by a short u.  Why?  Inquiring minds want to know.  Even if you say this was Hijazi dialect, and that it would have been read as mu'min in the Arabic koine, why is the rasm written in Hijazi dialect (that happens to parallel Northern Arabic dialects), rather than being written in the Arabic koine that it was supposedly recited in, and which Islamic tradition has written over the rasm by a swarm of later Masoretic symbols? Why this striking disjunction?

    The orthography of the base Qur'anic rasm is really remarkable, both in its form and in its variation, and this is obscured by the fact that Islamic tradition tells us how it should 'really' be recited. I don't think there are simple answers here, but there are lots of intriguing problems and complexities.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #29 - May 14, 2015, 06:51 PM

    Well that is interesting. I can't fully understand it because my knowledge of Arabic is very basic. The idea of Islam being a movement with it's heartland in the Eastern Levant region instead of the Hejaz has always been to me the most fascinating and plausible part of the new alternative theories on Formative Islam. I was never "convinced" of this of course, I just felt that it was a plausible speculation. But I am actually less convinced now than I was in the past. I had an interesting discussion about it in the comments section of the Amazon review to Patricia Crone's "Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam":

    Here is the relevant part of my review of Crone's book:

    Quote
    Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam is an incredibly detailed study of what pre-Islamic trade 'might' have been like. Crone explains that there are too many uncertainties and far too little written or archaeological data to draw any definite conclusions, but what we do know is that the traditional narrative about a prosperous trading city in the middle of the desert simply do not add up. Not only was Mecca located in a barren valley devoid of agriculture, but also not on any plausible ancient trade route. Trade with India and Africa was indeed conducted by sea, not land, so Mecca should really have been located on the coast. Furthermore Crone explains that there are no written records that mention a city called Mecca at all prior to the Rise of Islam. Crone explains that in the Islamic Era, the city of Mecca was only able to feed so many Muslim pilgrims because regular grain imports from Egypt were established, and these imports were brought in by boat via the Red Sea, not by land.


    To which someone called "Timothy" replied:

    Quote
    The prevailing wind over the northern half of the Red Sea was always out of the north.

    I have a degree in Economic Geography. I also did my area studies in the Middle East. I love history. I teach comparative law, including a component on Islamic law. That's my background.

    That background lead me to the same question: why didn't the trade run up the Red Sea instead of along the land route?

    There is, in deed, a reason why commerce did not follow the Red Sea route.

    The clue came to me from reading about Egypt, perhaps it was Caesar's tour of Egypt or maybe it was a study of ancient Egypt's economic geography about 5 years or more years ago. I'm not sure. But in Egypt, the prevailing wind consistently comes out of the north. This might be an extended "micro-climate" effect. (Somethiing similar occurs on coastal Southern California). The air over the Mediterranean is cool and so relatively heavy. The Air over the Sahara is heating up, so rising, so as it rises, it draws in the cooler, heavier air from the north. The effect of this, was to provide Egypt with communications up river: sails could push boats up river, and the current push them down.

    In the last two years I had been studying and brushing up on the history of Islam to supplement my teaching of Islamic law. Once again, I began wondering why commerce wasn't water bound up the Red Sea running parallel to the land trade route. Looking at the map, I remembered that the prevailing wind in Egypt comes out of the north. Would that wind pattern be confined to Egypt or would it extend out over the Red Sea as well?

    At the other end, everyone who studies the Geography of the Middle East, and Asia in general learns about the monsoonal effects of the giant Asian continent: in winter a gigantic high pressure from the cold forms over an area roughly around Irkutsk, pushing dry air out of Asia, and in summer a gigantic low pressure cell forms near the border of Afghanistan and China that reverses the air flow in a counter clockwise fashion. Part of that pattern sends moist Indian Ocean Air circling over Ethiopia where much of it gets dropped there do to high elevations, but some moves on to Yemen where it provides the only agriculture in the Arabian peninsula. So in the Summer time, a wind out of the south could be blowing at the entrence to the Red Sea near Yemen.

    I then found a web site that was the product of a naval person that brought things together. Over the Red Sea, the prevailing winds come out of the north, year around north of 22 degrees, roughly the tropic of Cancer. For half the year (winter) the wind out of the north prevails over the entire length of the Red Sea. But in the Summer time, thanks to the Monsoon a prevailing wind comes out of the South, but only up to around 22 degrees.

    At about that latitude, on the Arabian peninsula we find the port of Jeddah. A trade route then extends from Jeddah upto the inland trade route running north and south up the peninsula. It is upon this route, near the junction with the North South route, that Mecca sits.

    So we can presume that trade did use the Red Sea in summer months, but only up to Jeddah, where it then had to be move ashore, and then that trade made its way up to the inland route, passing through Mecca. Mecca would have been important as a place of relatively high altitude, therefor cooler, with a water well. In the winter months, we can assume that trade did not enter the Red Sea at all, but instead used the land route. Either way all trade would either pass through Mecca or come very close.

    Another reason why trade might have been Mecca centered was because Mecca was still Pagan. That means it was neither Zoroastrian (Persian) or Christian (Roman), which made Mecca the perfect neutral party to function as a go between Yemen which was controlled by Persia, and Palestine controlled by Rome/Byzantium. A similarly, a tribe citing North of the Black sea handling silk road traffic adopted Judiaism, and we can presume for similar reasons, to be fully neutral in an age where religion had political implications.

    Another question might be, why didn't traders land on the African coast and then transfer to the Nile and use the current to move trade up to the Mediterranean basin? The reason is the river bends far to the west at this point annd would involve a prolonged over land drive through the eastern Saharan dessert.

    Back to the issue of the prevailing winds. A look at where the traditional southern boundary of Egypt lies, and we will note that it lies near the 22 degree latitude - about where Jeddah is. This would seem to confirm that for most Egyptian rulers, communications was fairly reliable and easy up to that point, thanks to the prevailing wind out of the north, and not worth the trouble beyond it as the wind was not always out of the north beyond that point.

    It appears to me that there was an economic reason for the existence of Mecca as a trading center of some sort in the 6th and 7th centuries.

    Furthermore, historians trying to take Mecca out of the early Islamic stories has to contend with the historical fact that the Ummayads and the Abbasids trace their lineage back to Mecca. The descendants of Meccan's had important roles all over the early Islamic empire. while I can't be sure, I think that is a historical fact and so if one sets aside the received history of early Islam, then one's new narrative still has to take into account how Meccans came to have so many and so much important positions in the early Islamic empire.

    The other historical fact is that something unified the Arabs in the 7th century. If the receive history is incorrect, then the revised history needs to account for these other things.

    While I am open to the thesis proposed here, I need a counter narrative to explain all the rest of history that we do know about. For instance the Reddic wars that was presumed to have taken place immediately after Mohammed's death.

    My own hunch is that, Islam's explosion out of the Arabian peninsula was a result of the peace that followed the end of the Roman-Sassanian wars. The trade that had been moving through Arabia was there because a hot border existed between the Roman's and the Sassanians. Roman's didn't want to trade with Zoroastrian traders, and Persians didn't want to trade with Christian traders, this gave the pagan Meccans the opportunity to take control of the trade, they could buy from one and sell to the other. A neutral 3rd party was needed to facilitate the trade and the pagan Meccans fit the bill. But at the very time Mohammed was unifying the Arabs, the war between Rome and Persia was ending. At that point the more direct trade routes up the Persian Gulf, through fertile Cresent would have been resumed. That meant that the suddenly unified Arabs were now on the precipice of financial ruin. Just as the Mohammed raided the caravans passing to the west of Medina then in 620s, they raided the trade routes that passed to the north in the Fertile crescent, only instead of just raiding, they got political control. This allowed the trade to continue to stay to the north, rendering Mecca into backwater status once again especially when the Arab government moved to the North itself.


    To which I responded:

    Quote
    That is actually a very interesting take. Thanks for the info. So where would the winds / current blow north of 22 degrees? During antiquity there was a port on the Egyptian Red Sea coast called Berenice Troglodytica, it was located at 24 degrees latitude and was the main port of entry for trade between India and the Roman Empire. But if it was possible to carry out trade up to 24 degrees in antiquity what changed to prevent it later on? Berenice Troglodytica was abandoned in the 6th century AD. So why was it abandoned? Did the Monsoon winds change around this time making sailing to it impossible? Or maybe it was simply abandoned as part of the general decline of the Roman Empire due to plagues, invasions, etc. It is possible that the abandonment of this port for whatever reason was what led to the ascendance of Mecca....

    Ps do you have any references for your information?


    http://www.amazon.com/review/R3FI9FT4HO4Y01/ref=cm_cr_dp_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1593331029&channel=detail-glance&nodeID=283155&store=books#wasThisHelpful

    I did not hear back after that. But what is interesting is that Mecca appears to have become an important trading city (following the traditional narrative) at around the time that the Egyptian port of Berenice was abandoned on the other side of the Red Sea. Almost as if it was able to assume the role in trade that Berenice had earlier played. Which would explain why it was never mentioned before that time, and why it suddenly became so important....
  • 12 3 ... 5 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »