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Theme Changer

 Topic: Can Religion be a force of Good?

 (Read 8367 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     OP - June 01, 2015, 12:28 PM

    I just saw a heartbreaking post on Facebook where a father posted about his 3 year old son who just drowned in a tragic accident.

    The father consoled himself that this is Gods decision and he must accept it and believe it is for the best and there is some good in it. He prayed for sabr and asked for prayers to get through this.

    I just wondered whether people think religion is a good thing at such times or not?
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #1 - June 01, 2015, 12:49 PM

    I see turning to religion to deal with hard times as similar to turning to alcohol.

    Yes it will provide relief but there may be future consequences, you are best off finding another way to deal with the situation. 
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #2 - June 01, 2015, 12:54 PM

    Do religious people experience less suffering when they lose a loved one? I don't think they cry any less or grieve any less.
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #3 - June 01, 2015, 01:02 PM

    I just saw a heartbreaking post on Facebook where a father posted about his 3 year old son who just drowned in a tragic accident.

    The father consoled himself that this is Gods decision and he must accept it and believe it is for the best and there is some good in it. He prayer for sabr and asked for prayers to get through this.

    I just wondered whether people thing religion is a good thing at such times or not?  


    Mr. Hassan I have a similar story about a boy and his mother.  Unlike father losing his 3 year old  son. This boy lost his mother.,  I can not write in detail but STUPID RELIGIONS have nothing do to with this grieving process .    It was there before religions and the so-called religion copied that process from the generations/cultures that were there before the birth of  these stupid organized religions.

    In fact I can see that grieving process in animal kingdom..

    Elephants really do grieve like us



    Animals and the Grieving Process


    The Good Funeral Guide Blog  Grief in animals


    Animals Mourning Over The Deaths Of Loved Ones
     
     



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5RiHTSXK2A


    So the point is .. I will not give and inch of space for religions to take the credit on that grieving processes that some one will go through when they loose  their loved ones..  

    Forget inch.. I will not give millimeter of space too stupid religions..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #4 - June 01, 2015, 01:12 PM

    Religion can be a force for good if it permeates ideas of gender/economic/racial/LGBT equality, altruism, humanism, philanthropy, scientific literacy etc.

    When religion is used as a force for the subjugation of women, homophobia, capitalism. political power and interference in the endeavours of Scientists then it's bad religion.
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #5 - June 01, 2015, 01:16 PM

    It depends if its a part of their mechanism for coping. I'm not going to judge anyone for taking that comfort.

    Alternatively for me, in a moment of grief being reminded of a sham god would be one of the least comforting things you could do for me.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #6 - June 01, 2015, 01:16 PM

    Would it make it easier for that father to tell him; No it wasn't for the best. It was for nothing. Your child's death was just random shit that snatches the lives of the innocent before they had a chance to grow and experience life for no reason. Forget hope of ever seeing them again. They're gone and it is not part of some great wise plan. Life just seems to randomly destroy some people with no rhyme, reason nor justice.

    Btw not sure how many here have lost a child, but I have and I did find solace in my faith at the time. I still wonder if I'll see my daughter again.

    Religion is not all bad imho. It has its uses. Particularly for some people.
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #7 - June 01, 2015, 01:17 PM

    Religion can be a force for good if it permeates ideas of gender/economic/racial/LGBT equality,  altruism, humanism, philanthropy, scientific literacy  etc.
    ..................

    Religion.. My Foot..

    serpent  how are you doing??    but serpent why do you need to use that word ? why not call it as  altruism, humanism, philanthropyism, scientific literacyism  .. whatever..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #8 - June 01, 2015, 01:20 PM

    Would it make it easier for that father to tell him; No it wasn't for the best. It was for nothing. Your child's death was just random shit that snatches the lives of the innocent before they had a chance to grow and experience life for no reason. Forget hope of ever seeing them again. They're gone and it is not part of some great wise plan. Life just seems to randomly destroy some people with no rhyme, reason nor justice.

    Btw not sure how many here have lost a child, but I have and I did find solace in my faith at the time. I still wonder if I'll see my daughter again.

    Religion is not all bad imho. It has its uses. Particularly for some people.


    Religion attempts to cover that reality of death with a sham of justice. Even for religious people, though they may not say it in the moment, that sham can exacerbate the pain. But it depends on the person as always.

    Some will find comfort confronting the reality of death. In its finality and ubiquity. So once again, I cant agree that religion is some sort of panacea for the grieving person.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #9 - June 01, 2015, 01:22 PM

    Would it make it easier for that father to tell him; No it wasn't for the best. It was for nothing. Your child's death was just random shit that snatches the lives of the innocent before they had a chance to grow and experience life for no reason. Forget hope of ever seeing them again. They're gone and it is not part of some great wise plan. Life just seems to randomly destroy some people with no rhyme, reason nor justice.

    Btw not sure how many here have lost a child, but I have and I did find solace in my faith at the time. I still wonder if I'll see my daughter again.

    Religion is not all bad imho. It has its uses. Particularly for some people.

    Mr. Hassan.,  I agree with all that you said  except that word. I would prefer the word "faith.,  My Faith".  

    so that statement should be   "   My faith  is not all bad imho."

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #10 - June 01, 2015, 01:31 PM

    Mr. Hassan.,  I agree with all that you said  except that word. I would prefer the word "faith.,  My Faith".  

    so that statement should be   "   My faith  is not all bad imho."


    Fair enough. I'm happy with that edit.

    Btw you are actually sounding normal - are you ok Yeezy? . I'm worried about you.
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #11 - June 01, 2015, 01:33 PM

    It's very true that religion can be a force for good. Not just comfort in times of heartache but in a general sense. It can inspire art, music, poetry, charity, shelter, schools, many wonderful things. People quite rightly criticise the bad things religion can bring, and it's our duty as human beings, I feel, to highlight these aspects. But I  also acknowledge the positives. I do feel that these positives would still exist without religion as we are social creatures, and empathy and compassion are part of our nature. But I don't dismiss people when they say their religion inspires them to do good.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #12 - June 01, 2015, 01:34 PM

    Religion attempts to cover that reality of death with a sham of justice. Even for religious people, though they may not say it in the moment, that sham can exacerbate the pain. But it depends on the person as always.

    Some will find comfort confronting the reality of death. In its finality and ubiquity. So once again, I cant agree that religion is some sort of panacea for the grieving person.


    Even atheist turn to religious plattitudes when comforting loved ones.

    Perhaps that's because we have yet found good alternative ways of dealing with grief like this?
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #13 - June 01, 2015, 01:37 PM

    Even atheist turn to religious plattitudes when comforting loved ones.


    Like what? I'm genuinely curious what you consider that to be?

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #14 - June 01, 2015, 01:42 PM

    Even atheist turn to religious plattitudes when comforting loved ones.

    Not in my experience. Assuming you mean things like "S/he's in a better place".

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #15 - June 01, 2015, 01:44 PM

    Would it make it easier for that father to tell him; No it wasn't for the best. It was for nothing. Your child's death was just random shit that snatches the lives of the innocent before they had a chance to grow and experience life for no reason. Forget hope of ever seeing them again. They're gone and it is not part of some great wise plan. Life just seems to randomly destroy some people with no rhyme, reason nor justice.

    Btw not sure how many here have lost a child, but I have and I did find solace in my faith at the time. I still wonder if I'll see my daughter again.

    Religion is not all bad imho. It has its uses. Particularly for some people.


    I think that is the good of religion - and of superstitious belief in general. The trauma of losing a child is enough to drive someone mad. Religion, or a general faith in something better, is a way of providing hope when hope may not actually be warranted.  

    But we all know that is not all religion does. If religion were only about providing solace and comfort to people who need it, then it would not be so dangerous. Instead, religion will always demand something from you. It will use the faith that you put in it for its own benefit.

    What more will that father’s renewed religious faith cost him? What affect will it have on his family or even on his other kids?

    When I was younger, one of my best teenage friends died in a car accident. He was a Muslim, as was I, and was coming home late from a party. The driver of the car was drunk and lost control. They slammed into a tree and my friend was killed on the spot.

    At his funeral, I wasn’t “comforted” by the idea that he might be in a better place. On the contrary, I was terrified of the fact that he had died drunk, coming from a party, and with a girlfriend. The same God I ended up praying to for mercy for his soul also came with a list of demands that now hit me with dead seriousness. It came with a huge mental toll.
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #16 - June 01, 2015, 01:46 PM

    I don't know I'm thinking of phrases like:

    "She's no longer in pain."
    "I can't imagine how you feel."
    "Let me know if you need help."

    I mean I dunno, those are some of the common platitudes and they don't have anything to do with religion. And ultimately a platitude is just a platitude regardless of whether or not its religiously inspired, so I don't really see why that veneer would have some special significance for all people. It once again only applies for the religious or those who are comforted by religion.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #17 - June 01, 2015, 01:50 PM

    I honestly think the religion aspect of the whole comfort in bereavement thing is a bit overstated. Its the solidarity of the people around you and their love that really provides the comfort.

    I mean imagining a situation like that with the same people but none of the religion vs. receiving religious reminders without the people, I'm pretty sure I know which one would be massively more helpful.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #18 - June 01, 2015, 01:53 PM

    I think that is the good of religion - and of superstitious belief in general. The trauma of losing a child is enough to drive someone mad. Religion, or a general faith in something better, is a way of providing hope when hope may not actually be warranted.  

    But we all know that is not all religion does. If religion were only about providing solace and comfort to people who need it, then it would not be so dangerous. Instead, religion will always demand something from you. It will use the faith that you put in it for its own benefit.

    What more will that father’s renewed religious faith cost him? What affect will it have on his family or even on his other kids?

    When I was younger, one of my best teenage friends died in a car accident. He was a Muslim, as was I, and was coming home late from a party. The driver of the car was drunk and lost control. They slammed into a tree and my friend was killed on the spot.

    At his funeral, I wasn’t “comforted” by the idea that he might be in a better place. On the contrary, I was terrified of the fact that he had died drunk, coming from a party, and with a girlfriend. The same God I ended up praying to for mercy for his soul also came with a list of demands that now hit me with dead seriousness. It came with a huge mental toll.



    Hmm, that's exactly the kind of situation of real life and death that religion doesn't really help to confront in any meaningful way. It must have been really painful for you to have to deal with all of the guilt/confusion other emotions, in addition to the loss of a friend.  far away hug

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #19 - June 01, 2015, 01:54 PM

    What comforting purpose does the mandatory seclusion of a widow have?

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #20 - June 01, 2015, 02:16 PM

    I have lost a child in late pregnancy, which isn't the same as losing a child or mother in the real world !   At that time my religion caused me distress, i felt that perhaps somehow i was being punished by God for something, and i know that everyone around me was thinking the same thing, i could see it on their faces, which made me feel terribly angry and bitter.  That's the down side to religion in these kind of instances or any affliction, we immediately think that we have done something to deserve it.  But yep, faith and hope can bring peace and comfort.
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #21 - June 01, 2015, 02:18 PM

     far away hug

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #22 - June 01, 2015, 02:49 PM

    At his funeral, I wasn’t “comforted” by the idea that he might be in a better place. On the contrary, I was terrified of the fact that he had died drunk, coming from a party, and with a girlfriend. The same God I ended up praying to for mercy for his soul also came with a list of demands that now hit me with dead seriousness. It came with a huge mental toll.


    While this is a common occurrence it's also true that there are muslims who don't hold this view. They work out ways for their loved one to be in a better place. The popular one at the moment seems to be going to hell for a limited time to be purged/purified/cleaned then going to heaven.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #23 - June 01, 2015, 02:59 PM

    Oh, I totally believed that he wouldn’t be in hell “forever,” but that’s not the point. That's common Islamic belief. I believed that if he did end up being “cleansed for his sins,” it would involve more torture than I’d want to see my friend subjected to. But honestly, even that is not the point.

    The point, quite selfishly I guess, is the impact it then had on me. His death caused me to become even more religious in a way that I might not have otherwise in order to avoid a similar fate.

    That is why I asked above what affect this surge in faith might have on the father in question. Will he now force his other girls to wear hijab and “guard their chastity” in order to demonstrate his devotion to Allah? Will he spend more time at the mosque instead of doing something more useful? Will he become stricter in his observances? Etc. etc.   
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #24 - June 01, 2015, 03:43 PM

    I think that is the good of religion - and of superstitious belief in general. The trauma of losing a child is enough to drive someone mad. Religion, or a general faith in something better, is a way of providing hope when hope may not actually be warranted.  

    But we all know that is not all religion does. If religion were only about providing solace and comfort to people who need it, then it would not be so dangerous. Instead, religion will always demand something from you. It will use the faith that you put in it for its own benefit.

    What more will that father’s renewed religious faith cost him? What affect will it have on his family or even on his other kids?

    When I was younger, one of my best teenage friends died in a car accident. He was a Muslim, as was I, and was coming home late from a party. The driver of the car was drunk and lost control. They slammed into a tree and my friend was killed on the spot.

    At his funeral, I wasn’t “comforted” by the idea that he might be in a better place. On the contrary, I was terrified of the fact that he had died drunk, coming from a party, and with a girlfriend. The same God I ended up praying to for mercy for his soul also came with a list of demands that now hit me with dead seriousness. It came with a huge mental toll.



    You are right HM and you reminded me of my emotions when my father died.
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #25 - June 01, 2015, 03:44 PM

    I was pretty much an atheist when some ordeal happened that wound up costing a bunch of people their lives in my hometown, and many families I knew were totally devastated and lost family members and young children, my family was intact but it was a close miss and my mother lost some of her friends, it was just a huge, giant mess.

    That Sunday after the incident was only a couple days after, and my whole family woke up in the early morning when it was still pitch black outside and would be for a long time, and I threw on the hijab, pinned a loose end across my face so that you could only see the slit of my eyes and I wouldn't have to worry about the cameras, and we all went to the earliest service at the church in town where my father works.

    The little church was packed like I'd never seen it before, the service was loud because everyone was crying, and I sat in the balcony and saw people below reaching across the aisles and holding hands with each other, grown men and teenagers sobbing, it was crazy. The pastor didn't know what to say, said the typical religious lines about how they're in God's hands now and all that, and then some more important lines about anger, blame, and forgiveness. When the service was over, people lingered for a long time, and I remember the pastor's wife took my hands and thanked me for coming, that it meant a lot to her, and it was never really a question, we couldn't not go. Our town is small, everyone knows everyone, so we flock to the places where we know our neighbors are grieving, hijabs and all (I don't think our little town ever saw so many hijabs as it did in the aftermath of this incident from an influx of sympathizers and volunteers).

    In one way, the religious institutions in our town were community gathering places. We knew to go there for support. It was a place for people to go for help, for company, for community, and churches always have open doors. I also resented religion a little around this time, because some representatives of some religions that didn't have a location in our town started coming over, and in my view at the time they were vultures, like the guy passing out perfumed scientology guidebooks around town, but whatever. There's good and bad either way, and I'd prefer there to be a sense of community and caring for your neighbors without religion being involved, but that's a tall order for now.

    I know some of the people who lost loved ones are not religious. But some of them are. And as you can clearly see, I talk a lot, and I don't pull too many punches, but nothing on Earth will make me shut up faster than one of those parents saying that they know God has a plan for them, that they're going to see their kid again, that the other day they swear they felt her presence beside them or that they spoke to them in a dream. The world is pretty rough, we all have different ways of getting by, and if that makes them feel better, who the fuck am I to complain? Would it make any difference if they realized what I believe is the gravity of their loss? Of course not, God no, and so I've made it a policy of mine that I don't meddle in these coping mechanisms of grief.

    Ideally, everyone could just find coping mechanisms outside of religion, support outside of it, but in some situations, I genuinely believe that some people couldn't keep going without this hope, they couldn't take being saddled with the magnitude of the anger and despair of those who look at the situation plainly, and, so long as they aren't causing harm, we should do what we need to do to get by. So in those days, I found myself spouting religious rhetoric at an all-time high, and I don't regret it a bit, would do it again, would not dare to try to take any comfort away from them by suggesting that maybe that dream was just a dream, that feeling was just a feeling, and this world really is worse than you think it is. It's not my right to take that hope away from them, I hope that they keep it for the rest of their lives.

    And besides, who knows? I don't have all the answers. And in instances like this, it's the best time to remember it, to step aside and agree that such a thing may be possible.
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #26 - June 01, 2015, 03:49 PM

    Like what? I'm genuinely curious what you consider that to be?


    As Quod said "they're in a better place" - "they are at peace" "it was meant to be" or even more overt religious references which are said to comfort such as she is with god or in paradise with the angels etc…

    Saying such things doesn't betray your atheism asbie it just means you have human feelings and empathy and are not an arsehole.
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #27 - June 01, 2015, 03:53 PM

    I have lost a child in late pregnancy, which isn't the same as losing a child or mother in the real world !


    Yes it is.  hugs
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #28 - June 01, 2015, 04:13 PM

    My daughters name was Huda btw. Just wanted to say.
  • Can Religion be a force of Good?
     Reply #29 - June 01, 2015, 04:25 PM

    Hassan hugs
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