Yes I AM a Muslim!!

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[cosmicdancer]

Hassan
If someone had said what you're saying now when you were a traditional muslim, would you have been convinced? Would you be convinced by Irshad Manjis arguments?

Perhaps - perhaps not.

I actually liked what Irshad Manji was saying when I first read her - mind you I was already losing my faith then.

But if you are implying that most Muslims will not be convinced by what I'm saying - tbh I don't care.

I want to find a position I am comfortable with. If others agree or disagree it's up to them.

“Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend.” Albert Camus

[Quod Sum Eris]

So Hassan, quick question. While you will be forever recognised as a CEMB god, should we still call you the Father of Murtads? With your current stance I wonder if you shouldn't be know as the Father of Common Sense instead, which isn't quite as poetic.

[Tonyt]

As a historical point you're pretty wrong on this. The volunteers for the Spanish civil war were almost all card-carrying or convinced Marxists of one stripe or another. Marxism during the great depression resembled early Christianity or Islam….

Sure there are elements of Marxism that one could interpret as a modern “replacement religion”. But that is just an interpretation, an opinion. It is strange that you would declare others as “wrong” based on an interpretation. One could even say that your certainty that Marxism is a religion could be a religion in itself. If you keep widening the definition of religion to prove a point, then you eventually end up with a term that is not very useful. I think that is what Scott Altran has done. If everything can be interpreted as a “transcendental belief” then the term is not very useful.

Scott’s view that no one will fight and die for liberal democracy was also shared by Hitler and Mussolini. They believed that the freedom of liberal democracies made their citizens soft, weak, and aimless and they could be easily crushed by the discipline, patriotism, and military might of fascism. They turned out to be very wrong and that mistake cost them everything.

[cosmicdancer]

So Hassan, quick question. While you will be forever recognised as a CEMB god, should we still call you the Father of Murtads? With your current stance I wonder if you shouldn't be know as the Father of Common Sense instead, which isn't quite as poetic.

Either of those are better than what some call me 

[yeezevee]

Hassan
If someone had said what you're saying now when you were a traditional muslim, would you have been convinced? Would you be convinced by Irshad Manjis arguments?

 

Seems to be a potentially unfair question Skywalker.

QSE....QSE... let us not backtrack on fundamentals... ., "Asking unfair question on a forum like this should be a fundamental right of a member.."  Off course whether some one answers the question or not is a different problem..  Though the question is not for me but  let me answer  Skywalker..,
***************************************************************************
dear  Skywalker., you are using a word .,  "Traditional Muslim" what actually do you mean  by that??.  and let me give  you some links.. names of Muslims.,
 
Muhammad Ali Jinnah  .. Is he a traditional Muslim?

Shirin Ebadi ... Is she a traditional Muslim?

Muhammad Yunus  Is he a traditional Muslim?

Avicenna/Ali ibn Sīnā was he a  traditional Muslim?

Malala Yousafzai ... Is she a traditional Muslim?

Imran Khan Is he a traditional Muslim?

Dr. Abdul Kalam Is he a traditional Muslim?

And and let me give you a general link World's '500 Most Influential Muslims' 2012    there are 500 of them at that link., are they Traditional Muslims? please read their profiles from the links.

So I can give you 1000s of Muslim names.,  but to start with take names from the above list and you give me names of folks  who is a traditional Muslim and who is not from that..

As far as this guy is concerned.. HE IS A BUM ... LAZY BUM., .. I am angry.., with his understanding of Islam  and with his background(Lucky Guy)  he could have cleaned up that  fucking London from Islamism. And let me tell you this.,  when he was questioning Islam the lady  Irshad Manji was in Diapers
 

Ooops Mr. Hassan answered the question.. but not to my satisfaction...

[Skywalker]

Avicenna was not a traditional muslim. Imran Khan seems to be a traditional muslim. The rest, I don't know much about.

[yeezevee]

Avicenna was not a traditional muslim. Imran Khan seems to be a traditional muslim. The rest, I don't know much about.

 But you didn't define what is traditional Islam and who is traditional Muslim dear Skywalker

Well  then you know very little about Muslims., so  click and read the links.,

So Imran Khan.,  Great guy....  So your definition of traditional Muslim is Imran Khan . Again let me get this right.,   Imran Khan is a   perfect traditional Muslim...   right? that guy A Cricket player turned in to Politician. I think he is a wonderful person.,   don't you?  So you are OK with traditional Muslims and traditional Islam right??

 Or or do you have problem with  traditional Muslims and traditional Islam ??

[PeruvianSkies]

Hassan
If someone had said what you're saying now when you were a traditional muslim, would you have been convinced? Would you be convinced by Irshad Manjis arguments?

Seems to be a potentially unfair question Skywalker.

It's a perfectly valid question.

I don't have an issue with Hassan wishing to label himself as a muslim. However, traditional Islam would still classify his views as heresy. It's not much different from those attempting to sugarcoat Islam by following it's more peaceful aspects and denying the more violent/questionable parts. Although, in this case you are consciously being dishonest about what Islam is supposed to represent. You know it's not flexible. God's word is infallible.

Is this point important however? Perhaps not. Christianity was able to change, even though I find that intellectually dishonest too. However, identity and community is very important to people. For many, continuing to identify with Islam but following a watered down version is far simpler than deserting it altogether. If it means fewer radicals, then perhaps it's for the best. If this leads the way to more muslims accepting apostasy, then it can only be a good thing (even if it's dishonest to traditional Islam).


I can understand those in this thread who don't agree with Hassan. I don't understand why others are being harsh with them, their viewpoints make complete sense. But I hope they can also realise that religions do change with time, even if they were never meant to. Lets not be a stopping force in creating a more peaceful Islam.

[cosmicdancer]

I also totally understand those who don't agree with me. It's OK to differ, I'm not trying to get anyone to agree with me. 

Hey Peru 

[Skywalker]

But you didn't define what is traditional Islam and who is traditional Muslim dear Skywalker

Traditional Islam varies depending on the sect. But if its Sunni Islam, you'd look at specifically if there's a difference between an individuals/grous intepretation, and if they differ on basic issues that are established by consensus or accepted unanimously.

But you didn't define what is traditional Islam and who is traditional Muslim dear Skywalker

Well  then you know very little about Muslims., so  click and read the links.,

I know who they are somewhat except the last one, but I don' t know about their religious beliefs

[PeruvianSkies]

Hey Hassan 

[Quod Sum Eris]

In what way

Not sure, I was quite drunk when I made that comment.

It's a perfectly valid question.

Yeah, I'm not sure why I thought it might be unfair.

By the way, just pointing this out, I usually work nights, hence the daytime drinking. Wouldn't want anyone to think I wake up and crack a bottle open.

[cosmicdancer]

It's not much different from those attempting to sugarcoat Islam by following it's more peaceful aspects and denying the more violent/questionable parts. Although, in this case you are consciously being dishonest about what Islam is supposed to represent. You know it's not flexible. God's word is infallible.

Actually I disagree. I value honesty above all and I think my position is very honest. I'm not sugarcoating anything. Take a look at my Khutbah about Hell.

One could take issue with my view on inspiration perhaps but I have purposely left that open to the reader to interpret how he likes and I think that both the believer and agnostic and even atheist should have little issue with it.

The fact that it differs from traditional Islam is of course obvious since I reject traditional Islam. I am not in anyway defending the Quran as a divine work. I am saying quite clearly it's a human work and very fallible.

I know and recognise traditional Muslims believe it is infallible and divine. But they're wrong. It's not divne.

Nor am I claiming that my position is in any way the true Islam or what Muhammad intended. Certainly not!!

I've tried very hard to be honest. Whether others find it a position they feel comfortable doesn't matter. It's a position I feel comfortable with as an Agnostic.

Could you tell me where I have been dishonest Peru?

[Quod Sum Eris]

I imagine many muslims will find Hassan's view incredibly refreshing.

[David]

From 3.10 to 8.40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xomaqSOxZiU

Good stuff, and broadly what I, as an agnostic, feel. But the killer moment came at the death, from 8.00 - 8.40.

I live in a country (Japan) which has wonderful people but has never had human rights, and whose current government is keen to change the 'Western-imposed' constitution to make it explicit that the individual is subordinate to the collective.

The only home I own is in a country (Nicaragua) that has no human rights but greater personal freedom than anywhere else I've ever been.

And then there's my country of origin (Britain) which is a bit confused about everything, and more.

[PeruvianSkies]

Could you tell me where I have been dishonest Peru?

It's dishonest from a traditional Islam perspective. From that perspective, there cannot be a new interpretation of the religion. But you reject this and are going completely against it, yet still call yourself a muslim. This just feels contradictory and dishonest.

It kind of feels like someone starting a diet, but eventually relapsing to the point that all their doing is eating one fruit on top of all their usual junk. Yet they still call it a diet.

[David]

Christianity was able to change, even though I find that intellectually dishonest too.

Much less dishonest. There be wiggle room in the scriptures.

(See Quod's excellent post and, if you can be arsed, the Sermon on the Mount.)

[cosmicdancer]

It's dishonest from a traditional Islam perspective. From that perspective, there cannot be a new interpretation of the religion. But you reject this and are going completely against it, yet still call yourself a muslim. This just feels contradictory and dishonest.

It kind of feels like someone starting a diet, but eventually relapsing to the point that all their doing is eating one fruit on top of all their usual junk. Yet they still call it a diet.

Fair enough Peru, though I don't feel I'm being dishonest nor sugarcoating anything, but I understand your perspective.

[NoToPrejudice]

If I imagine myself as a sixth or tenth Century BC man or someone in sixth Century AD, with poetic predisposition who has seen a lot of pain and hardship in his early life and who like many others around him strongly believed that there was someone out there, one or many, who created everything and who controlled everything, I can easily see that I would be writing about this god/gods from time to time, inspired by natural events and by events happening around me in societies, etc. I would perhaps be writing on his/their (god/gods) behalf, too. Many poets have done that even in the recent history, e.g., Iqbal.

I hope I understood this 'inspiration' right! I understand it as humans GETTING THEMSELVES inspired by the divine and that the divine is NOT MAKING THEM INSPIRED intentionally!? No divine intervention on purpose! As an atheist, I would say 'humans getting inspired by an imaginary god they created themslves'

What I get is that humans through their imagination and through their interpretation of the world, created the divine or understood the divine (if there is any non interfering deity out there who is transcendental) and then over a long period of time, people inspired by this "divine" or "divinity" wrote about him and also about what he is like and what he likes and what he dislikes and so on. The trigger for such writings would have come from events (both natural and related to humans) and lots would have got written, repeated and memorised over time. There would be a plethora of god/gods, narratives, cults, faith groups, ever changing and evolving over centuries in different parts and we then see many smaller but three major religions sprouting out from around that region.

Just to add that, as a very basic level poet in Urdu and Punjabi, I can sit there trying to write something and nothing would happen but if I am inspired by something, it would just flow out. I bet these poets felt that they were possessed by the divinity when they said or uttered those words. I am not sure but through meditation, people can get into a trancelike state, and if they are genetically gifted (poetic tendency) and had had the right education/experience/training and were moved or inspired by something, let us say a natural disaster and feared end was nigh, they would certainly be writing apocalyptic stuff?

Islam appears to have been created as a retrospective narrative about events and personalities in the past and also as a retrospective collection of writings and also perhaps re writing, adding new material and attributing it to the past and editing the collected material, etc

So what I understand is that traditional Islam is a very rigid set if beliefs, rituals, code of life etc. Historical Islam is not the topic of this debate but nevertheless important to keep in mind. The alternative understanding, as I see is, that humans were inspired by a God that they have imagined/created/understood and then wrote material attributable to him or wrote on his behalf and then started to believe that the material was divine (truly and directly from the divine) and went on to build a civilisation / an ummah on that knowledge and understanding!

If I believe that Quran is man made and only the inspiration came from God or writers were inspired by divinity, hence it is not divine and that we do not need to put it at such a high level in living our lives. What, in that situation, happens to the Hadith and Sunnah? What is their value and interpretation? Sayings and acts of the person who wrote material inspired by the divine!

It is certainly a view that would help bring some moderation to the religion but it will be a very tough battle to get it known and accepted.

It is possible that my understanding of the subject and topic is poor and I am biased because of my own understanding of religion in general and Islam in particular.

[yeezevee]

I imagine many muslims will find Hassan's view incredibly refreshing.

Huh! what??     you imagine too many things QSD..

Many Muslims will find Hassan's view incredibly refreshing???.,   refreshing??    let me tell you this to you and to  those who think like you dear QSD.    Millions ..   100s of millions of Muslims don't care don't read and  don't think about Mr. Hassan Radwan's views.,  They have gillion day to day problems to worry with...

Now those who read  him and still follow the same conventional Islam .. it doesn't matter to them.  But those who read him  and  who think  that  "Hassan's views on Islam are incredibly refreshing."  their problems starts from that  day on wards   and they will go through tremendous internal struggle within themselves and with some of their near& dear.  

[hatoush]

Hassan

i was speaking with some friends today about your ideas, they raised some interesting point. if we assume the Quran is a human product then :

1- Muhammed was a liar.

2- If not a liar, then he is psychotic.

I tried to explain the inspiration part, but i think i was not very successful , but then another issue was raised.

if Quran is not divine, why we should fellow it ? 

[bogart]

Simply point out that Islam itself dictates that Muslims should follow the laws of land. There laws are not divine but are followed regardless. Academic standards are not divine but are followed. Speed limits are not divine but are followed.

[ibn Bilal]

Hassan

i was speaking with some friends today about your ideas, they raised some interesting point. if we assume the Quran is a human product then :

1- Muhammed was a liar.

2- If not a liar, then he is psychotic.

 

There is ample room for both.

[Quod Sum Eris]

There laws are not divine but are followed regardless.

*cough* hadiths *cough*

[bogart]

Pretty much Quod.

[hatoush]

*cough* hadiths *cough*

come on you known the story already, we fellow the Hadith because "God" told us to fellow his messenger 

basically their arguments, the whole concept of Islam is based on the premise that Quran is divine, otherwise, everything will simply collapse. why should we pray then, or do pilgrim, or fast if the whole thing is a product of human minds.

may be we shouldn't ?  fuck i hate theology !!!!

[cosmicdancer]

Hassan

i was speaking with some friends today about your ideas, they raised some interesting point. if we assume the Quran is a human product then :

1- Muhammed was a liar.

2- If not a liar, then he is psychotic.

Maybe he was a liar. Maybe he was psychotic. Maybe both. But I don't think the possibilities are limited to those two. Many people think God is speaking to them, revealing things to them, guiding their hand etc... and though they may be deluded, I doubt they are all liars or psychotic. I think that at the time of Muhammad people were even more naive and inclined to take feelings, thoughts, ideas etc... as some sort of divine sign. They saw gods in most things and attributed all sorts of natural occurrences to the gods.

I tried to explain the inspiration part, but i think i was not very successful Smiley, but then another issue was raised.

if Quran is not divine, why we should fellow it ? 

Well precisely!!

I would have thought that most here could read between the lines of what I have said and see that this is exactly what I am saying. You "don't" have to follow it.

I'm just trying to find a softer landing - but the result is the same.

I personally find this an easier route to take, because it means I can still feel part of my family, community and traditions while picking and choosing what I want to keep and what to abandon.

[Quod Sum Eris]

come on you known the story already, we fellow the Hadith because "God" told us to fellow his messenger 

basically their arguments, the whole concept of Islam is based on the premise that Quran is divine, otherwise, everything will simply collapse. why should we pray then, or do pilgrim, or fast if the whole thing is a product of human minds.

may be we shouldn't ?  fuck i hate theology !!!!

Mo himself said he's just a man. The hadiths aren't divine, just the quran. The idea of hadiths being divine is shirk. So if you ask why follow the quran if it isn't divine, you can easily ask why one would follow the hadiths. I imagine the answer to this would be they contain wisdom. Same as the quran. You don't have to believe it's the literal word of allah to believe it's a book of wisdom.

Another reply would be to point out that if Mo were around today, if he were born in Canada or England or South Africa and created islam today, the quran would be different. Instead of talking about things in dark age Arabia it would mention things in a 21st century context. Unless they think that if Mo was alive today the quran he wrote would be word for word the same. I personally think it would at least mention Mo being in a car instead of riding on a camel.

[hatoush]

for what it's worth, only two guys were curious by those ideas, an atheist, and a moderate Muslim ( like you, father Egyptian, Mother British), the rest were horrified, as a matter of fact, they would have preferred if I told them I was an atheist, but i keep bothering them, I am a Muslim who consider Quran, a human product, that's a dangerous idea  

QSE, thanks, that's very sound as an argument.

[Quod Sum Eris]

"Me and mine don't follow no stinkin' rules! We're rebels!"
*hatoush coolly slips on a pair of sunglasses* "I'm a rebel. You're an idiot."