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Theme Changer

 Topic: Yes I AM a Muslim!!

 (Read 19230 times)
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  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #30 - June 10, 2015, 08:54 PM
    Quote from: allat on June 10, 2015, 07:59 PM
    far away hug always Hassan.


    Thanks Allat hugs
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #31 - June 10, 2015, 08:55 PM
    Quote from: moi on June 10, 2015, 08:00 PM
    So everyone is a true Muslim worshiping allat in their own way, with no last messengers or imams telling them the Way?


    Ameen!
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #32 - June 10, 2015, 09:01 PM
    From my PoV you are much a Muslim as Christians are that do not believe in literalism or inerrancy are still Christians. Both define what Islam and Christianity are by their interpretation of the text rather than what someone says their interpretation should be. Each is valid according to it's own internal views and arguments rather than be presuppositional views and arguments from a single group. There is no issue to deal with since I accept you for who you are rather than who I want/expect you to be. It is this very type of acceptance that insular groups are incapable of and can not extend to those outside their rigid thought patterns and ideas.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #33 - June 10, 2015, 09:04 PM
    Well said Bogart, and that's one of the reasons I decided to take this position.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #34 - June 10, 2015, 09:13 PM
    Just to draw a comparison, if not an accurate one. Given my health situation at times I do ask for signs, help or anything that will convince me there is something out there. Sure it is an emotional reaction but it is something I can not avoid at times. Call it a lapse in atheism if you wish To other atheists this could be a sort of taboo, lack of certainty or being agnostic. However this would be allowing others to define me rather than defining myself. I still do not believe in a deity but I do entertain the possibility at times. Maybe it is a coping mechanism. However my point being is what I should not deny these events thus deny myself.

    Having said this I look at those that turn to religion in times of need or health issues differently now as I am searching as well. Searching for external answers while also relfecting on my view of who I was, who I am and who I could become.

    /Rocks boat
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #35 - June 10, 2015, 10:02 PM
    This agnostic muslim thing seems not all that different from liberal Christianity. The Bible is not infallible and God exists in some vague, unknowable way.

    Anyway, I think it's a perfectly fine position to hold if it adds meaning and fulfillment to your life. I think having a group of this sort will help those questioning their religion to talk to people who fall in between the spectrum of rabid apologists and militant atheists.

    I don't believe in Christianity in the slightest anymore but enjoy going to church with my family, singing hymns, and celebrating religious holidays because it reminds me of my childhood and will always be a part of me.
    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #36 - June 10, 2015, 10:16 PM
    I see you forging a path for those wrestling with literalist Islam but who don't want to abandon their faith altogether - showing them there is another way of being muslim. Good that you're 'out and proud'  Smiley
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #37 - June 10, 2015, 10:26 PM
    You are what I would call a muslim, not a Muslim!
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #38 - June 10, 2015, 10:29 PM
    I don't think there's any real need to put a label on it, but its what is generally labelled as "cultural muslim" or cultural Christian, jew, etc.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #39 - June 10, 2015, 10:29 PM
    There is little common ground between the two extremes so no real basis for a dialog between average people. However positions such as Hassan's can fill that gap by using "language" familiar to either group. Wittgenstein's idea on language can be applied here. The language used by atheists, deists, theists, etc has diverged but still treated as the same due to the share concept. The views have begun using different definitions. For example a theist will use the word "cause" in a theological context. I use "cause" in a philosophical context.  Another example is "
    "time". For me time is space-time, for the theist it is undefined at best. Regardless when a theist says before space-time (universe) it becomes an incoherent statement in my ears no better than squared circle. Chaos ensues as the argument becomes about language rather than ideas. Hassan's position can separate the bickering members while explaining how each views the word in context. This allows both groups to understand words used in the proper context thus develop a dialog which addresses arguments used by both rather than either side demanding the other comply with their terminology. It is this lack of understanding both ways that needs to be resolved.

    However I will let Hassan do what he wishes. Just pointing out another value in such a position can provide in general.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #40 - June 10, 2015, 10:30 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 10, 2015, 10:29 PM
    I don't think there's any real need to put a label on it, but its what is generally labelled as "cultural muslim" or cultural Christian, jew, etc.


    Labels are unavoidable. Better to create your own than wait for someone to create one for you.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #41 - June 10, 2015, 10:31 PM
    True enough, I suppose.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #42 - June 10, 2015, 10:47 PM
    I think that those of us keen on seeing reform in Islam too often direct our dialogue/arguments towards the (often self-appointed) Muslim spokesmen, preachers, leaders, clerics, pundits, dawaghandists etc... I think we give them an importance we shouldn't. We should ignore them as they will rarely change their tune. They are the biggest obstacle to reform. They will only shift when forced to.

    That's another reason I feel I want to take this position - as it speaks right past these nitwits and directly to ordinary Muslims.

    It's surprising how many 'friend requests' I got today from Muslims I don't know Smiley
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #43 - June 10, 2015, 11:00 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on June 10, 2015, 08:54 PM
    Yes and inspiration can turn out shit too - I remember hearing Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music - and thinking WTF?? A double album of absolute shite. He said he was inspired to do this very different album, but no-one else was on the same wavelength as it was universally panned lol


    I heard that Lou Reed did it as a f-you to his record company. There've been many albums done out of contractual obligation to labels they hated; most of them are... well, let's just say we're not to take them as serious works of art. Mind, we're going off topic.

    Back on topic: it's a good essay, Hassan. Especially given the hints I've got here and there that ex-Muslims who go through a total crisis of faith tend toward severe depression. A message that they can have doubts (to the point of rejecting certain Qur'anic material) but not be left entirely adrift might be just what they need.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #44 - June 10, 2015, 11:04 PM
    Thanks, Zimriel  Smiley
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #45 - June 11, 2015, 01:34 AM
    If you believe that the Quran has "multiple authors", how can you call yourself a Muslim? From an Islamic perspective, that is considered flat out kufr.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #46 - June 11, 2015, 01:42 AM
     curiousarabgirl, let me re-articulate your sentence.

    If you believe that the Quran has "multiple authors", how can you call yourself a Muslim? From an "orthodox" Islamic perspective, that is considered flat out kufr.

  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #47 - June 11, 2015, 01:43 AM
    Hassan is free to call himself whatever he likes. He isn't responsible for the bias of others.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #48 - June 11, 2015, 02:00 AM
    Quote from: curiousarabgirl on June 11, 2015, 01:34 AM
    If you believe that the Quran has "multiple authors", how can you call yourself a Muslim? From an Islamic perspective, that is considered flat out kufr.


    This is why Islam has been so resistant to change.

    You are doing the fundamentalists job for them.

    Guarding the gates.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #49 - June 11, 2015, 02:10 AM
    Spot on. It's when you repeat the claims of others about what is and isn't islam, who is and who isn't a muslim, that you know the ones you don't want to win have won.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #50 - June 11, 2015, 02:14 AM
    Hassan

    can you please clarify "Inspired by God",  i still feel uneasy about this sentence,  some great human made great achievements ( literature, science ....) but we never associate their inspiration with God.

    what's wrong with saying that the author(s) of Quran were motivated by a good will without involving a supernatural inspiration.  that simply they wrote based on their own understanding of God.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #51 - June 11, 2015, 02:18 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on June 11, 2015, 02:10 AM
    Spot on. It's when you repeat the claims of others about what is and isn't islam, who is and who isn't a muslim, that you know the ones you don't want to win have won.


    "Shut up Muslim"..... Some  one said that to me 20 year ago  and.and,,

    "Fuck you, I am not a Muslim"., that was my response for that "shut up"
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #52 - June 11, 2015, 02:20 AM
    Quote
    Quote from: hatoush on June 11, 2015, 01:42 AM
    curiousarabgirl, let me re-articulate your sentence.

    If you believe that the Quran has "multiple authors", how can you call yourself a Muslim? From an "orthodox" Islamic perspective, that is considered flat out kufr.


    Quote from: hatoush on June 11, 2015, 02:14 AM
    Hassan

    can you please clarify "Inspired by God",  i still feel uneasy about this sentence,  some great human made great achievements ( literature, science ....) but we never associate their inspiration with Good.

    what's wrong with saying that the author(s) of Quran were motivated by a good will without involving a supernatural inspiration.  that simply they wrote based on their own understanding of God.


     hatoush.,  curiousarabgirl is a DANGEROUS GIRL   and hatoush you are trying to  stop  the gates...... .. don't do that..... we need to open the Gates..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #53 - June 11, 2015, 02:22 AM
    Quote from: hatoush on June 11, 2015, 02:14 AM
     some great human made great achievements ( literature, science ....) but we never associate their inspiration with Good.

    Funnily enough, we tend not to say that even explicitly religious works like Handel's Messiah or the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel are inspired by God.

    We see their authors as human geniuses working for the contemporary equivalent of the military-industrial complex - the Church and those who used its authority to rule.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #54 - June 11, 2015, 02:41 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on June 11, 2015, 02:20 AM
    hatoush you are trying to  stop  the gates...... .. don't do that..... we need to open the Gates..


    no, I am not, I would argue that I am even more liberal than Hassan, I think the only condition to be Muslim, is if you say so.

    I am a Muslim, that's all what I need to say, I am not even supposed to justify it, I don't need to make a public statement of Faith, but i understand if someone want to do to in order to be included in the Community.

    if we say the Quran is inspired by God, there will be a lot of  Implications, I find it hard to believe that God inspired people to write wrong and untrue stories (myths), and some questionable moral materials, I did not see any compelling reason why God will do that.  

    I mean God did not inspired anyone, the Quran is a human product based on the knowledge of late antique middle east.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #55 - June 11, 2015, 02:47 AM
    Quote from: hatoush on June 11, 2015, 02:41 AM
    no, I am not, I would argue that I am even more liberal than Hassan, I think the only condition to be Muslim, is if you say so.

    hatoush  everyone who reads you and who knows you.,  will immediately say that "you are a liberal guy", ..but that is not relevant ,   and YOU ARE DOING IT.. see this from you..
    Quote
    ....if we say the Quran is inspired by God, there will be a lot of  Implications, I find it hard to believe that God inspired people to write wrong and untrue stories , and some questionable moral materials, I did not see any compelling reason why God will do that.  

    that is closing the gate., nothing but closing the gate.. think about it  hatoush..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #56 - June 11, 2015, 02:53 AM
    Yeezevee

    Seriously, English is my third language, can you please articulate what do you mean by "closing the gate", please no subtlety
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #57 - June 11, 2015, 02:54 AM
    I'm not sure he can.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #58 - June 11, 2015, 02:58 AM
    Quote from: hatoush on June 11, 2015, 02:53 AM
    Yeezevee

    Seriously, English is my third language, can you please articulate what do you mean by "closing the gate", please no subtlety

     hatoush ...English is my fourth or even 5th  language...   Cheesy  

    and  I may go in detail some time later but  well this may help you and QSD on that guarding the gate or closing the gate
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #59 - June 11, 2015, 03:06 AM
    I think that the Christian belief in Divine Inspiration has enabled Christianity to evolve and grow and become ultra tolerant.
    It seems that the Christian sects which deny Inspiration and insist on Literal Translation are the ones that become stifling, abusive, unwelcoming. Ultimately stagnant and poisonous.

    I really want the Inspired concept to be part of the Muslim tradition. I think it is a key to freedom.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
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