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Theme Changer

 Topic: Yes I AM a Muslim!!

 (Read 19244 times)
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  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #90 - June 11, 2015, 01:58 PM

    ^I can't see the video right now. Mind giving cliffnotes?
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #91 - June 11, 2015, 01:59 PM

    It's extremely relevant and the nature of it will give you an enhanced understanding of all that resembles or is "GOD". I'm sorry, but its meaning is too large to capture in a cliff-notes summary. You will just have to wait until you can find the opportunity to watch it.

    Edit: Actually the video link I posted is from Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #92 - June 11, 2015, 02:02 PM

    Nothing has moved humanity from the plains of Africa to the remarkable achievements you mention the way that faith has.


    Is there any evidence of that?

    Quote
    Yes, the wars, the conquests, and the buildings were a result of people’s faith in gods – and that in and of itself is truly remarkable. But what else can cause human beings to behave the way that gods can? Love of family and country may be a far second, but nothing really tops what gods can do.


    I think humanity's natural curiosity to understand how things really work is far more inspirational than mythology.

    Quote
    Even some of our most esteemed secular documents appeal to things like providence and our “creator,” not because they are real in the way that you and I are real, but because they are real in the way that concepts like freedom and empathy are real.  


    I think you are grasping at very little here. Some secular documents in the transitional period of the enlightenment may have mentioned a God because it was the politically safe thing to do.  If you are referring to the US Constitution or to Darwin's Origin of the Species, yes they briefly alluded to a creator, but I don't think religious faith had much to do with the motives behind those documents.  The people who wrote the US Constitution wanted to build a nation based on secular rationality, to get away from the mindless superstition that governed European monarchies. Darwin was inspired by the beauty and diversity of life that he witnessed, he was driven by natural curiosity to understand how things really work, he had no use for mythology. And you certainly wont find a scientific paper today that draws it's inspiration from God.

    You really haven't provided a concrete example of anything particularly impressive that belief in religion has achieved. What are the achievements of religion?
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #93 - June 11, 2015, 02:07 PM

    ^I can't see the video right now. Mind giving cliffnotes?


    Basically Scott Atran (an anthropologist & an atheist himself) argues for religion and that the development of human intelligence/self awareness led to religion (transcendental beliefs) and this enabled the human race to organise and motivate on a scale no other animal could compete with. He argues that religion (transcendental beliefs) have been the catalyst for human civilisation and that we as yet have nothing to replace it. I think he makes the point that few are willing to die for liberal democracy but they will gladly die for their God and a place in heaven.

    That was a bit simplistic - but I do urge anyone to watch the video - it is only 35 minutes long - and it explains it better than I can. Plus Scott Atran really does put forward a much more convincing case than the Philosopher and the Humanist who argue religion just brings bad things and we don't need it.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #94 - June 11, 2015, 02:17 PM

    Is there any evidence of that?

    I think humanity's natural curiosity to understand how things really work is far more inspirational than mythology.

    I think you are grasping at very little here. Some secular documents in the transitional period of the enlightenment may have mentioned a God because it was the politically safe thing to do.  If you are referring to the US Constitution or to Darwin's Origin of the Species, yes they briefly alluded to a creator, but I don't think religious faith had much to do with the motives behind those documents.  The people who wrote the US Constitution wanted to build a nation based on secular rationality, to get away from the mindless superstition that governed European monarchies. Darwin was inspired by the beauty and diversity of life that he witnessed, he was driven by natural curiosity to understand how things really work, he had no use for mythology. And you certainly wont find a scientific paper today that draws it's inspiration from God.

    You really haven't provided a concrete example of anything particularly impressive that belief in religion has achieved. What are the achievements of religion?



    I think you are so eager to argue with me that you are missing the fact that I’m not saying anything very different from you. Why did Darwin have to reference things like a creator? Why did completely secular documents have to mention things like God? Not because those things were real.  But because of the profound effect and hold that faith has on the masses, they were forced to use the language of the people. It is noted that even Darwin was hesitant at first to publish the Origin of the Species because he knew what an upset it would cause. And the ripples still have not settled today.  

    I’m not saying that religions are true or that gods are real. When I say that they are great, I mean that they have been able to inspire people to act, both for good and for evil, in ways that not much else has.

    How many soldiers died in battle believing that “God” was on their side? How many native populations followed the heard because the omen was good, or sacrificed babies because the crop “gods” were displeased? Why did so many pilgrims and puritans make the long voyage across the Atlantic? Why did Columbus have to bypass the Middle East in order to reach India?

    Of course, there may have been, and likely were, people at the heads of those endeavors that used the faith of the masses for their own good. But for sure, nothing has been able to motivate people the way religion has.

    My family hailed from the Southern US and migrated to the North during the Great African American Migration. Faith was very much at the center of it. My Grandfather was a preacher and went on to build the first African American church in the city they settled in. My mother was active in the civil rights movement. If not for the power of religion, whether it was the faith of Martin Luther King or the Faith of Malcolm X, I physically would not be here today. Religion made my mother the woman she is.

    So again, I agree with you that religion has led humanity to do some really horrible things. All I’m saying is that even that demonstrates its power.  

  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #95 - June 11, 2015, 02:18 PM

    Please at least watch just these short 5 minutes where Scott Atran makes his pitch:

    From 3.10 to 8.40

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xomaqSOxZiU
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #96 - June 11, 2015, 02:26 PM

    Religion (transcendental beliefs) is based on absurdities and is unverifiable - yet such beliefs remain an important part of man's success on this planet.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #97 - June 11, 2015, 02:31 PM

    Scott Atran is obviously not willing to die for liberal democracy but that doesn't mean that others are not. The Second World War was fought for liberal democracy, many thousands of atheists went to fight for liberal democracy in the Spanish Civil War, people today leave their safe, democratic homelands and volunteer to fight with the Kurds against ISIS.

    If Scott Atran was right then we would expect the theocratic governments of the world such as Iran and Saudi Arabia to be now dominating the world. In actuality we see the opposite. The most secular nations with the highest number of atheists are the strongest economies that contribute the most to the world in terms of science and wealth.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #98 - June 11, 2015, 02:37 PM

    You are taking a too narrow view of religion. Much of what people fight and die for - even today - would fall within Scott Atran's definition of "transcendental beliefs" - did you watch the clip?
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #99 - June 11, 2015, 02:38 PM

    Have you read Dr. Daniel Dennett’s book Breaking the Spell?
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #100 - June 11, 2015, 02:39 PM

    No.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #101 - June 11, 2015, 02:48 PM

    I think you are so eager to argue with me that you are missing the fact that I’m not saying anything very different from you.


    I am not eager to argue with you, I am eager to understand your position.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #102 - June 11, 2015, 02:50 PM

    Have you understood it better now?
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #103 - June 11, 2015, 02:53 PM

    did you watch the clip?


    If it is the same clip you posted last time, then yes I watched it and already commented on it that time. From the video clip Scott Altran struck me as a bit of a fascist, when he said that belief in human rights are a "faith based" belief. People believe in human rights because they do not like to see other human beings suffer. It has nothing to do with believing in something that is not real because human suffering is very real.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #104 - June 11, 2015, 03:00 PM

    Have you understood it better now?


    A little bit, yes. When you brought your own family history into it and described what motivated them, that helped a lot. Though it seems a little bit elitist to say that the masses need a fantasy to motivate them whilst Charles Darwin can be motivated simply by wanting to understand the truth. I would like to believe that everyone can be motivated by reality rather than fantasy. But maybe I am wrong.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #105 - June 11, 2015, 03:16 PM

    Religion (transcendental beliefs) is based on absurdities and is unverifiable - yet such beliefs remain an important part of man's success on this planet.

    Hmm.. well if it a belief then    it doesn't matter to me as long as it stays inside  the brain of a believer., To me  it really makes no difference  whether it is transcendental, transreligious, transcontinental, trans-cranial/inter-cranial or just a simple stupid trance..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5goISKPSH8

     but it has to be with in thy-self.. Not make a group run like monkeys and make leaders out of brainless bums...

    anyways   let me rewrite this
    Quote
     "Religion  (transcendental beliefs)  ., A given hypothesis even if it  is based on absurdities and is also  unverifiable -.... yet such hypothesis remain an important part of wo/man's success on this planet, provided if it is freely allowed to question, explore and investigate"


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #106 - June 11, 2015, 05:04 PM

    Would it help if discussing gods we never discussed one god? I mentioned the Hoover God in something today!

    And do we need atheist Muslims, as there are atheist Jews ?  Or an Islamic equivalent of this?

    Quote
    If the state of religion today seems to be 'all at sea', inviting the angry rejection of its claims as dangerous delusions, what could be better than to explore that vast sea in all its dangerous storms, its profound and mysterious depths and its serenity and beauty?

    The Sea of Faith Network takes Matthew Arnold's image of the ebbing sea in his poem 'Dover Beach', but uses it in many different ways — exploring, daring to leave dry certainties behind, plumbing new depths

    For Network members, all matters of religion are rooted in history, culture and language. None of them can validly claim divine authority. For many members of Sea of Faith this realisation goes hand-in-hand with a deep appreciation that religion is a tremendous human resource.

    Sea of Faith, Science and the New Atheism

    There is no such thing as God, because God is not a thing. Neither Science nor religion 'explains' reality, but each is a way of exploring it. Science and religion do not need to be enemies. Neither do theists and atheists.

    Sea of Faith and the Arts

    We do not claim a supernatural origin for Nature, but we find wonder in it. In the arts and the religions (often closely interlinked) we explore and express that wonder, we create new wonders, and we find meaning.

    Sea of Faith and World Religions

    Most religious believers tend to see the religions of others as human creations. Realising that our own is also a human creation can be an aid to genuine respect and understanding. We are beginning to explore this in more depth.

    What is the Sea of Faith Network?

    The Sea of Faith Network was started in 1987 in response to Don Cupitt's television series which charted the withdrawal of Christendom.

    The Sea of Faith Network continues to explore the riches of human religious traditions without any reference to a supposed divine reality outside human experience.


    http://www.sofn.org.uk


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #107 - June 11, 2015, 10:38 PM

    Please at least watch just these short 5 minutes where Scott Atran makes his pitch:

    From 3.10 to 8.40

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xomaqSOxZiU


    Just watched the video. Yes. This gets very much at what I was trying to convey earlier. Dr. Dennett explains a similar idea in Breaking the Spell quite nicely.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #108 - June 11, 2015, 10:52 PM

    Scott Atran is obviously not willing to die for liberal democracy but that doesn't mean that others are not. The Second World War was fought for liberal democracy, many thousands of atheists went to fight for liberal democracy in the Spanish Civil War, people today leave their safe, democratic homelands and volunteer to fight with the Kurds against ISIS.



    As a historical point you're pretty wrong on this. The volunteers for the Spanish civil war were almost all card-carrying or convinced Marxists of one stripe or another. Marxism during the great depression resembled early Christianity or Islam, its adherents were convinced they were living in the end of history, right on the cusp of the glorious proletarian revolution that would sweep capitalism off the face of the planet and usher in an age of utopian socialism without nations, religions, money, war, or exploitation. The supporters of 'liberal democracy' or as the Marxists would have called it bourgeois democracy were few and far between in the Republic. It should also be noted that more Irishmen volunteered to help the Nationalists defend the Catholic Church in Spain from godless communism than signed up to fight for said godless communism, though in this Ireland was an outlier.

    As for anti-Daesh volunteers today, from what I have read most of them are more motivated by a hatred of Daesh than by a love for 'liberal democracy.' And the Kurdish Marxist militias they are joining certainly do not share the vision of 'liberal democracy' for their eventual state, at least on the level of the actual fighters.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #109 - June 11, 2015, 11:57 PM

    And do we need atheist Muslims, as there are atheist Jews ?  Or an Islamic equivalent of this?

    Coming from the Jewish / Christian tradition as I do - I will admit, that worries me. Atheist Jews have inflicted some horrors upon the world. Whatever you think of Marxism itself (founded by an atheist Jew), other atheist Jews had a big hand in Russian Revolutionary Terror, culminating in the famine in the Ukraine. As for the Christian tradition, the "post-Christian" community bequeathed the Thule Society to the world and that artist from Austria.

    So I'd not support an atheism for atheism's sake. One needs something to escape *to*. What replaced Monothelete Christianity and Heraclius's tyranny in the Near East wasn't atheism; it was a vacuum, to be filled by Islam. I don't know what would fill the vacuum left by a failed Islam. I do know I'd probably not like it. In fact some Muslims would argue that's exactly what ISIS is; a new cult filling the vacuum.

    A humanist Islam might be possible, developing from the Mutazila perhaps. I hope it is.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #110 - June 12, 2015, 12:12 AM

    Quote from: Zimriel
    So I'd not support an atheism for atheism's sake. One needs something to escape *to*. What replaced Monothelete Christianity and Heraclius's tyranny in the Near East wasn't atheism; it was a vacuum, to be filled by Islam. I don't know what would fill the vacuum left by a failed Islam. I do know I'd probably not like it.

    The two obvious secular successors to Islam in the 20th century were Kemalism in Turkey (an inspiration for Hitler and Mussolini) and Enver Hoxha's Communist regime in Albania. Ernest Gellner wrote an analysis somewhere (possibly in 'Muslim Society', I'm not sure) of how the religious background of the people involved influenced the form their secularism or atheism took. It's a long time since I read this and it would be interesting to re-read it and see if the arguments still seem to stand up.


  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #111 - June 12, 2015, 12:53 AM

    three

    i edited my post, as it seems, it was understood differently from what i intent in the first place.

    all the scriptures are the product of the human mind, if really  God inspired them, I believe they would have been much better.


    What I mean is that if that canonical text was seen as ¨inspired¨ rather than literal, it would help beliefs and translations become more fluid, more open to interpretation. I don't care if the adherents believe they were moved by a god or not, so long as they no longer rely on literalism.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #112 - June 12, 2015, 01:03 AM

    dear three., there is a huge difference irrespective of what is there in bible and what is there in Quran.. and that is Christ.. Jesus Christ.,

    Christ and Muhammad.....  both characters may be stories of some unknown characters. But stories  of Christ makes Christ followers (THOSE WHO FOLLOW CHRIST FOOT STEPS /STORIES OF CHRIST) the  towering figures of the human society such as  Jozef ("Jef") De Veuster,/Father Damien or Martin Luther King or Mother Teresa or the picture that you see in my profile..

    Follow Muhammad /stories of Muhammad Character you don't know where you will end up..  So it is not comparable except "Both are Faiths"


    I dunno Yeezevee. The reason the people you list are important in Christian tradition is because Christianity believes they were inspired to do the work of god/christ. Christianity's sainthood is akin to retroactive prophethood, as there is no Seal in their tradition. So the faith is still being contributed to, still changeable. Without that entire inspiration concept, they might not be so important.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #113 - June 12, 2015, 01:05 AM

    There's also the central meanings of the gospels. Jesus is very clear that though he hasn't come to abolish the old law, let he who is without sin cast the first stone which pretty much makes it obsolete. Because we can do away with the old testament we're left with the spirituality and theistic philosophical pondering of the latter texts. Love your enemies, forgive those who wrong you, and quite possibly the greatest endorsement for secularism you'll find in an abrahamic text, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's".

    The god of the old testament is very much the god of the quran. It doesn't escape my notice that bigoted extremist sects of christianity so often use the old testament to justify their venom while hardly mentioning the new testament.


    True, very good points. A red letter Bible, when read for the red, is a very different book.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #114 - June 12, 2015, 08:09 AM

    And why not?

    Millions of Christians and those of other faith are comfortable with that.

    Why not Muslims?


    yes of course, sorry if I come across as negative,  I just felt your proposal was less radical  grin12 , and i guess, i get what  yeezeev  is saying, no need to close the gate.

    Good luck with your endeavor, i guess big things start with small steps.

  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #115 - June 12, 2015, 08:35 AM

    No its ok Hatoush you didn't come across as negative . You highlighted a very pertinent point.
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #116 - June 12, 2015, 08:56 AM

    I just felt your proposal was less radical  grin12 , and i guess, i get what  yeezeev  is saying, no need to close the gate.


    tbh you both have a point, but just bear in mind I am speaking to a real audience of somewhat more traditional Muslims, face to face - so I need to make sure I don't cut them adrift but bring them with me, if you know what I mean.

  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #117 - June 12, 2015, 09:44 AM

    Hassan
    If someone had said what you're saying now when you were a traditional muslim, would you have been convinced? Would you be convinced by Irshad Manjis arguments?
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #118 - June 12, 2015, 10:08 AM

    Seems to be a potentially unfair question Skywalker.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Yes I AM a Muslim!!
     Reply #119 - June 12, 2015, 10:10 AM

    In what way Huh?
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