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Theme Changer

 Topic: Khutbah about Hell

 (Read 6472 times)
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  • Khutbah about Hell
     OP - June 12, 2015, 01:47 PM

    OK, well I just delivered this Khutbah about Hell:

    http://agnosticmuslimkhutbahs.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/hell.html

    (EDIT - I removed the text because I updated the original a few times and can't be bothered to keep changing the text here - so please just visit the link above to see the Khutbah - thanks Smiley )
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #1 - June 12, 2015, 02:20 PM

    Oh, wow. Great job, Hassan.

    To go off on a bit of a tangent, that quote from Rabia I haven't heard in ages. An early mentor of sorts of mine loved her, and that quote specifically. He was a pretty public figure, at least locally, and he was always having to do that tightrope walk where it was clear, at least to me, that he was a very accepting and open-minded man and that spirituality and personal belief spoke more to him than orthodoxy, but he also was in the public eye as a Muslim and seemed to have to answer and be accountable to both local Muslims and non-Muslims as some sort of representative.

    He's probably one of the people I'd most dislike to find me on here, but I do wonder what he'd think about you and your sermons, Hassan. I think you'd have a fan.
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #2 - June 12, 2015, 06:22 PM

    OK, well I just delivered this Khutbah about Hell:

    http://agnosticmuslimkhutbahs.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/hell.html

    ************************************************************
    (Clicky for piccy!)
    ................The torments of Hell are described graphically in over 500 places, throughout the Qur'an. Here are just a few verses:

    "Boiling fluid will be poured down on to their heads; it will melt their stomachs and skins. For them will be hooked rods of iron Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, they shall be dragged back..." (22:19-23)
    .....

      Melts   their stomachs and skins.  hooked  with rods of iron..  whole body  barbecued   and then   Ha! THEY TRY TO ESCAPE FROM HELL and ..and they are dragged back..  by who?  by god......Huh?  

    Any one who  can Vote in election believes such nonsense are IDIOTS  of nth order

     well add more pictures to help the IDIOTS...








    Quote
    Niflheim (Germanic/ Norse culture) :  According to the Germanic and Norse descriptions of hell, it is a frozen place ruled by Hel and is located next to the Shore of Corpses. It is the dwelling place of against snake called Nidhogg, who feeds on the dead. The souls brought to Niflheim by Hel are kept in constant pain.

    The House Of Lies (Zoroastrianism) :  According to the Zoroastrian belief, once a person dies his/her soul has to pass through the Chinavat bridge which separates the world of the living and dead. The bridge is thinner than a strand of hair and sharper than a blade. Here the souls are judged on the basis of their deeds. If the person is a sinner then the bridge turns upside down and the soul is thrown into the demon filled pit below.

    Duat (Egyptian belief) :  The hell of Egyptians is Duat where there is a lake of fire and iron walls. The God of dead, Osiris rules over Duat and the heart of every soul is weighed against a feather. If the heart weighs more than the feather then they are supposed to be eaten by the demon Ammut.

    Tuonela (Finnish belief) : According to this belief, the souls of the dead arrived at the banks of the river Tuoni. Tuonela is supposed to be an extremely gloomy place filled with poisonous snakes. Tuonela is also said to allow the visitors who wish to visit their deceased loved ones, though the journey is extremely dangerous and often deadly.

    Narak (Hindu belief) : Naraka is the hell for the Hindus, Sikhs, Jains and Buddhists. It is a place of punishment based on the soul's Karma or deeds. Narak is only a temporary destination of the souls and once the sinners have paid the price of their bad deeds, they are reborn on Earth. There are various levels of the Narak and the deeds of the sinner are the basis of their sufferings. For example sinners who have cooked and eaten animals and birds throughout their life are punished by being boiled in hot oil. So, these were the few amazing descriptions of hell throughout the world. Regardless of the cultural differences, the hell or the underworld is almost similar for most cultures and religions.


    big deal ......  some fools collected stupid stories that were floating  around and pasted it in to Quran to scare the people of that time.. We are in 21st century .. get over the nonsense..

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Tpb0HY0-Eg

    when IDIOTS like these preach nonsense what do you expect kids that didn't even complete high school..??   Scoundrel talks about Space shuttle and HIS STUPID HELL at the same time ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #3 - June 12, 2015, 06:30 PM

    Notice how demons are usually dark-skinned.
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #4 - June 12, 2015, 06:32 PM

    We sure are. Grin
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #5 - June 12, 2015, 06:33 PM

    Great Khutbah, Hassan. I’m still processing my thoughts on this. I suppose it is a different means to the same end: that the Qur’an’s depictions of hell are an absurd and obscene fiction. The difference is around how we arrive at that conclusion. I wonder if this means, however, could only work along with – or perhaps even after – the other means of just calling BS on the whole of the manipulative nonsense and encouraging people to put it all behind them.

    I think both voices are necessary.  One to jolt people out of it all and the other to help them reconcile what has been so deeply engrained in them.
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #6 - June 12, 2015, 06:41 PM

    I'm happy for anyone to call BS on the whole thing.

    I tried to do that but wasn't totally at ease - maybe I've just been Muslim for too long.

    I'm sure you youngsters will have better luck on just turning you back on it.

    I just feel both that I'm happier dealing with it this way - and also happier that doing this may offer a lifeline to those who also struggle to just walk away.
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #7 - June 12, 2015, 06:43 PM

    I know how passionate you are about the subject of hell, Hassan. And the audience you're trying to convey these ideas to really limits your ability to express it. I think you've done well to expose Muslims to the context of the honestly despicable descriptions and repeated references to hell. Not an easy task at all.  Afro

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #8 - June 12, 2015, 07:11 PM

    Thanks. Yes indeed I have to work within limits ☺
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #9 - June 12, 2015, 07:12 PM

    I'm happy for anyone to call BS on the whole thing.

    I tried to do that but wasn't totally at ease - maybe I've just been Muslim for too long.

    I'm sure you youngsters will have better luck on just turning you back on it.

    I just feel both that I'm happier dealing with it this way - and also happier that doing this may offer a lifeline to those who also struggle to just walk away.



    I get what you are saying. And what you are doing, honestly. And why you are doing it. It is primarily a personal thing and I think each of us has to find what works for them specifically. What I appreciate most about this Khutbah is the personal honesty.

    For me, as I read through the Qur’an these days, the threats of torture and hell seem much more like the empty threats of someone consciously grasping at ways to control people. It seems manic at times. It’s honestly my biggest obstacle in the way of reconciling or reclaiming any part of Islam with my day to day life. Just as I begin to find the Qur’an beautiful or inspiring or whatever, it starts with the threats of hell. And not in any sort of abstract or easily dismissed way, either. “And if you could only see when they are made to stand above the fire: ‘is this not the truth’!” “The day they will be pushed into the fire of hell with a violent push. This is the fire that you used to deny! Enter into it, have patience or do not have patience, it is the same for you either way, you shall be recompensed for that which you used to do!” And so on, ad nauseam.

    I know that you are familiar with these verses and I get how you have dealt with them, but for me, it is as though they stand in the way of even beginning to dismiss those ideas in an honest way that I could personally accept. And ultimately, they can draw you in to their manipulation if you think about them too much.

    Sometimes, I personally find it easier to accept that the gods of men are their own creation and reflect their own understandings, morals, goals, and desires. As I stated earlier, those gods certainly do inspire men to do all sorts of things – great things, but as they are entirely relative to the man, they are also indicative of their state of mind. That mind that encouraged people to feed the poor, free the slaves, have patience, and work together towards truth certainly had some good in it. But that mind that threated his family, countrymen, wives, and fellow humans with grotesque torture – simply for not agreeing – was deeply, deeply disturbed. That is why I struggle to call myself a follower of Muhammad, even if I sometimes find myself wanting to.

    It’s disappointing. And perhaps I’d find more peace if I could reconcile it all. But I can’t offer the Qur’an any excuses on hell.
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #10 - June 12, 2015, 07:20 PM

    In any event,
    Grin Lan atabara’ minka yaa shaikhana, Abadan.  Afro

     far away hug
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #11 - June 12, 2015, 08:06 PM


    I get what you are saying. And what you are doing, honestly. And why you are doing it. It is primarily a personal thing and I think each of us has to find what works for them specifically. What I appreciate most about this Khutbah is the personal honesty.

    For me, as I read through the Qur’an these days, the threats of torture and hell seem much more like the empty threats of someone consciously grasping at ways to control people. It seems manic at times. It’s honestly my biggest obstacle in the way of reconciling or reclaiming any part of Islam with my day to day life. Just as I begin to find the Qur’an beautiful or inspiring or whatever, it starts with the threats of hell. And not in any sort of abstract or easily dismissed way, either. “And if you could only see when they are made to stand above the fire: ‘is this not the truth’!” “The day they will be pushed into the fire of hell with a violent push. This is the fire that you used to deny! Enter into it, have patience or do not have patience, it is the same for you either way, you shall be recompensed for that which you used to do!” And so on, ad nauseam.

    I know that you are familiar with these verses and I get how you have dealt with them, but for me, it is as though they stand in the way of even beginning to dismiss those ideas in an honest way that I could personally accept. And ultimately, they can draw you in to their manipulation if you think about them too much.

    Sometimes, I personally find it easier to accept that the gods of men are their own creation and reflect their own understandings, morals, goals, and desires. As I stated earlier, those gods certainly do inspire men to do all sorts of things – great things, but as they are entirely relative to the man, they are also indicative of their state of mind. That mind that encouraged people to feed the poor, free the slaves, have patience, and work together towards truth certainly had some good in it. But that mind that threated his family, countrymen, wives, and fellow humans with grotesque torture – simply for not agreeing – was deeply, deeply disturbed. That is why I struggle to call myself a follower of Muhammad, even if I sometimes find myself wanting to.

    It’s disappointing. And perhaps I’d find more peace if I could reconcile it all. But I can’t offer the Qur’an any excuses on hell.



    "gods certainly do inspire men to do all sorts of things – great things, but as they are entirely relative to the man, they are also indicative of their state of mind."

    Aint that the truth!!

    'But I can’t offer the Qur’an any excuses on hell'

    Nor should you.

    As you rightly say it is a personal thing - and you must follow your heart. You are a good person HM - I can see that clearly and you will find your own peace, I'm sure of it. At the end of the day it's all bollocks - nothing matters but what's in your heart  far away hug


  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #12 - June 12, 2015, 08:07 PM

    In any event, far away hug


    Thank you - nor me you  far away hug
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #13 - June 12, 2015, 08:07 PM

    double post
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #14 - June 12, 2015, 08:09 PM

    And as I think about this more, I guess I know that you are saying something more than that. I’ve read through your khutbah again a second and third time, and I get that you are saying Muhammad was limited by the ideas of his time. I suppose my initial reaction still holds true: this is a great voice for someone looking to embrace and reconcile what has been engrained in them after an initial rejection. I do think that both voices are necessary.

    I’m reminded of the private conversation Malcolm X said that he had with Dr King. He said he told him, and I’m completely paraphrasing, “Look. I know your reconciliatory campaign of non-violence towards the white man is exactly what we need. And I want what you want. But I also think that my voice is necessary. That man has to know that if he doesn’t take what you are offering, he’ll have to deal with negroes like me.”

    I know this is more a personal endeavor for you, Hassan. But if Islam as a whole does not move in that sort of direction in the near future, the results will be more murtads like us.
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #15 - June 12, 2015, 08:13 PM

    Absolutely!!
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #16 - June 12, 2015, 08:26 PM

    I’ve read through your khutbah again a second and third time...


    BTW thanks... I thought carefully about it. I wanted to ensure it allowed for a flexible interpretation, if you know what I mean - both not compromising my views about Hell, yet at the same time leaving a lifeline to hold onto Wink
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #17 - June 12, 2015, 09:03 PM

    How was it received there on the ground, btw?
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #18 - June 12, 2015, 09:09 PM

    No negative comments so far - seems to have gone well. We all went straight back to work afterwards so not had much chance to chat about it. But everyone here is more concerned with getting on running a busy farm lol
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #19 - June 12, 2015, 09:11 PM

    makes sense. Grin
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #20 - June 12, 2015, 09:18 PM

    Excellent stuff Hass! I think I'll share it with a friend of mine who is training to become a pastor and has pretty radically liberal views on Christianity if you don't mind...

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #21 - June 12, 2015, 09:22 PM

    Excellent stuff Hass! I think I'll share it with a friend of mine who is training to become a pastor and has pretty radically liberal views on Christianity if you don't mind...


    Of course, justperusing - you are very welcome Smiley
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #22 - June 12, 2015, 09:58 PM

    fyi I updated the original article.
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #23 - June 13, 2015, 05:48 AM

    Notice how demons are usually dark-skinned.

    I seem to recall that in islam, part of the end times myth is that the believers will be turned white and the disbelievers black. Something like that.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #24 - June 13, 2015, 05:50 AM

    Excellent stuff Hass! I think I'll share it with a friend of mine who is training to become a pastor and has pretty radically liberal views on Christianity if you don't mind...

    Throw in happymurtad's Debunking Jahannam: Why Islamic Hell Is Not Real

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=24124.0

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #25 - June 13, 2015, 07:58 AM

    I've tried to take a very honest position and not sugarcoat anything while taking a position that gives the reader scope for his own interpretation both the believer the agnostic and even the atheist Muslim.

    I'd be interested to know if anyone thinks I've been dishonest?

    As honesty is something I value above all else.
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #26 - June 13, 2015, 08:07 AM

    I'll resist the urge to make a taqiyya joke. Grin

    I can't see anything dishonest with what you've posted. It's a representation of the facts and your views on why it's in the quran. How much of the quran actually was written by Mo is another matter.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #27 - June 13, 2015, 08:25 PM

    Very nice khutbah, would have posted it on a site with (mainstream) muslims to see their reactions, had I not been banned on that site.
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #28 - June 13, 2015, 08:49 PM

    I've tried to take a very honest position and not sugarcoat anything while taking a position that gives the reader scope for his own interpretation both the believer the agnostic and even the atheist Muslim.

    I'd be interested to know if anyone thinks I've been dishonest?

    As honesty is something I value above all else.


    Once upon a time, during a period when I was professing to be Muslim but was pretty much over it, I would say yes, I'm Muslim, and then have like one of those fast legal disclaimers running through my brain after, like, As in I believe in a higher power who of course was aware of Islam and that all actions and religions have a touch of the divine. And I considered myself to be dishonest, because I knew what they meant, and I knew what they thought I meant, and I was never upfront with my kind of fringe interpretation. And that was the dishonest part.

    You've been an open book, as far as I can tell, and you define your terms clearly. You explain what your beliefs are, what they mean to you, what it doesn't mean, and you take the flak from both sides for it. Maybe not everyone will agree with you, but I definitely don't think they should find you in any way dishonest.
  • Khutbah about Hell
     Reply #29 - June 13, 2015, 09:08 PM

    Human words describing a fictional place based on images current at the time.


    Can't get clearer than that now, can I?
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