Non-Muslim Who Almost Converted

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- Stmp01
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Non-Muslim Who Almost Converted
OP - July 15, 2015, 02:34 PM

Hello all! Joined this forum a couple of months back but haven't been able to contribute due to exams.
I just want to start off by saying how much respect I have for you all, to get to where you are today in the face of the countless BS that entailed.
I myself am not a Muslim, however I started reading into the religion during March. While there are many aspects of Islam I respect and admire, I can't help but feel horrified at much emphasis there is on fear.

Islam's portrayal of Allah is more human than anything else, he thrives on the worship of his followers and seems to relish his future roasting of the "disbelievers", yet has the audacity to name himself the "most compassionate" and "most merciful". Arguably seeing as he created the universe, Allah can define what's good (even if it's blatantly not) and bad, but that contradicts the fact that Islam teaches that our innate goodness and sense of morality comes from Allah. I myself have always believed in God without adhering too strictly to the religion of my birth, seeing him/her as a being with infiniteknowledge, wisdom, and compassion that can't be comprehended by us humans and most importantly, the one thing that no human being should ever have to fear.

But reading about Allah made me question that, what if God (if God exists) is in fact cruel and sadistic? What if Islam is true? Having read a lot of the Qur'an, I just can't believe that it's from God (and the "scientific miracles" seem to be more of a case of convenient interpretation in light of new discoveries than anything else), but what if it is? The fear of hell has been on my mind for a solid 4 months now without reprieve, and I hate it, it got all the more intense after a friend tried to convert me. The worst part is imagining my loved ones and pretty much most decent human beings destined for such torture, to what gain? Why on Earth make 77% of the population non-Muslim? It makes no sense whatsoever, what "just" being tortures innocent people simply for not believing? It undermines the fact that every human being has their own trials and struggles, even if it's not simply to please God. I've got this constant fear of dying soon and being subjected to the punishment of the grave, and going to hell with all my family, friends, and fellow human beings.

That leads me to the last part of my rant; converts to Islam are expected to believe that their own families will burn for eternity unless they convert too. How can this make anyone feel peaceful? What kind of God would ensure you are born into a tight, loving family, and then expect you to shatter it just to PLEASE him? Just to show that you are sincere in your beliefs? It's twisted, inhumane and downright evil. Where's the need for a devil when your God is cruel enough?

Though I've valued critical thinking for most of my life and tried viewing Islam through it, this irrational fear still stands strong. I've had a lot of help from a fellow member on this forum for which I'm immensely grateful, and I'd like to hear members' opinions on this.

Sorry for the rant. and thanks for reading Apologies if this topic is in the wrong section.
- The Defiant
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Non-Muslim Who Almost Converted
Reply #1 - July 15, 2015, 03:23 PM

Good intro, welcome to the club.
- justperusing
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Reply #2 - July 15, 2015, 04:54 PM

Welcome! I've been through something similar myself. A number of things helped. I'd suggest just disengaging from religion in general for a while just to get your head straight. This includes not compulsively looking up reasons for why God/Allah does not exist and why religion/Islam is not true. Just find something secular to hold your attention for a while and come back to the question after a few weeks to a month. That will allow you to put a little emotional distance between you and the topic of hell so you can think more clearly. I think it was Immanuel Kant who said you have to rid yourself of the fear of damnation to think clearly about faith.

You can also learn about all the different hells religions have thought up in the past. You can read the graphic torments of hell for those who don't accept Jesus as their savior in the early Christian texts. You can read Zoroastrian scriptures and find the gruesome tortures prescribed for those who disrespect the sacred rites of fire or touch a woman on her period. Torture porn is a dime a dozen in these religions and no matter what you believe or practice you can never safeguard yourself from all of them.

Is there any reason that you are more scared Islam might be true over any other religion? This is a sincere question. Why the focus on Islam?

"I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
-Thomas Paine
- justperusing
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Reply #3 - July 15, 2015, 04:56 PM

Oh yeah and read the thread here on debunking Jehannam: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=24124.0

"I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
-Thomas Paine
- suki
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Reply #4 - July 15, 2015, 05:13 PM

Welcome OP
- Stmp01
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Reply #5 - July 15, 2015, 05:30 PM

Thank you everyone!

@Justperusing I think my focus is more on Islam than other religions because it offers the worst case scenario if it is indeed true. 23% of the current world population is Muslim, which means that the large remainder of humanity is destined to fail Allah's "test" upon death. While Christianity's hell is horrible and started the mainstream eternal torture concept, Islam takes it to a whole new level with its grotesque depictions of the exact things that will happen to the inhabitants of Jahannam. There's the occasional "it's all a metaphor" argument but honestly, the description of hell is so vivid and literal (unlike Christianity, which allows one to interpret that Hell is possibly separation from God), that it's hard to take it any other way.

Modern Christians tend to emphasise God's loving nature, whereas with Muslims, the hellfire is so deeply entrenched in their mind. Islam teaches to constantly fear Allah at all times, and seems to feed off the fear of the faithful. I know the Qur'an is dotted with Allah being "the most merciful", but it's all conditional isn't it? Bow down to him 5 times a day otherwise he'll burn you in a variety of ways and combinations, that's essentially it. And though they don't admit it, Muslims have to live with the fact that all their non-Muslim friends and families will go to hell according to their beliefs, while at the same time praying to "The Most Compassionate". It boggles my mind that God creates so many humans with the plan of torturing the majority of them.

And thanks for the link by the way, I remember reading it a few weeks back, lovely piece. You're right about taking a break from religion from a while, though ironically I've been looking for reasons that Islam may be true rather than otherwise, but I do need a break from it.

The main problem is that Allah punishes non-Muslims for not believing, when belief is a personal choice. If Islam was indeed true, why would anyone reject it in the long run? Each human being has their own trials and tragedies to live through and change for the better, if it turns out that our creator doesn't give a damn about that and only cares if you pray to him five times a day, then I honestly have lost all hope. If I ever converted, I don't know how I'd live with or feel at peace about the fact that anyone who isn't Muslim somehow deserves to go to hell. It's so clear when tracing the history of hell as you've described, but the fear remains. It's the "what ifs" that do the most damage.
- justperusing
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Reply #6 - July 15, 2015, 07:43 PM

Is there any reason that you think Islam might be more true than other religions? Or is it just that it is scarier that you can't shake it?

As a self-proclaimed "reasonable person", I think you'll be good at differentiating the plausibility of two competing hypotheses. One, hell is a man-made fiction used for control by intimidating and scaring people into submission (we have all too many instances of such things in human history). Two, the supreme being who created the universe is willing to stoop down to such anthropomorphic, petty vindictiveness to punish a victimless crime like unbelief. Which of these hypotheses requires the fewest unfounded assumptions? Which has more explanatory scope and fits in better with our background knowledge of human nature and how the universe works. We already know that humans invent beliefs about post-mortem torment to impose religious rules on people by the mere fact that if Islam is true, Zoroastrian hell is a man-made invention.

And finally, why think that belief is a personal choice? I cannot decide to wake up tomorrow and sincerely believe that Natalie Portman is my wife and I have been chosen to star in the next Star Wars movie. This is because my beliefs are based on my prior experience and how my mind reasons. I do not pick my beliefs, and in the same way I do not believe the supreme God of the universe dictates the Quran in a cave to Muhammad in the 7th century. Punishing people for what is not voluntary is the furthest thing possible from justice and if a child can understand that, I think a god or gods would too.

"I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
-Thomas Paine
- Stmp01
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Reply #7 - July 15, 2015, 08:51 PM

It's just scarier more than anything. Sounds relatively simple but it's mentally jarring if you know what I mean.

That's the problem, the whole image and description of hell is so barbaric and inhumane that you know it's false, which is only further confirmed by the fact that it's a reason many people adhere to religion. All the same, it's the irrational, factually unfounded "what ifs" that haunt my mind more than anything.

Sorry, I worded my opinions wrong there. I meant religious affiliation when I said "belief", it is a choice in the sense that you can choose to deny it if it vehemently goes against your own principles if that makes any sense? I apologise for the weak argument here but I find it difficult to articulate what's going on in my head, so what I type can be incoherent. Islam's teaching to non-believers is that now they've heard the message, they either accept it or go to hell. It's presented in such a black and white manner, when in reality there are so many shades of grey, which is driven by our innate beliefs which are not a matter of choice.

You're absolutely right, if humans can understand compassion, surely God can, thank you I guess this is a matter of personal conviction mixed with finding the strength to stay away from religious stuff for a while.
- justperusing
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Reply #8 - July 16, 2015, 02:59 AM

I don't even mean compassion. I mean if justice has any meaning to it, you cannot punish people for acts (or in this case, beliefs) that are by their very nature involuntary.

And the "what if" games could be played on all sides. If you were motivated by the pursuit of pleasure rather than the avoidance of pain, you might start asking "what if by rejecting all that Islamic nonsense, the true God or gods reward me for using my critical thinking skills and compassion with a hedonistic paradise of my own?" There's just as much evidence for that proposition as there is for Islamic hell. Or do I need to write my own scripture and say it was revealed to me for people to take the God-rewarding-critical-thinking hypothesis seriously?

It's just humans generally are more concerned with ensuring their own safety before anticipating future bliss. It's how we managed to survive through evolutionary time: to play out all the different possible scenarios and vigorously think it through. We have a tendency to err far on the safe side and vividly picture the worst case scenario in a way that makes it feel far more real than most plausible scenario. If you were a hunter 20,000 years ago and you heard a rustle in the grass, you are best off to assume it's a tiger or other dangerous beast despite it being less than likely the case.

In your case, there is a perceived threat, and since it is eternal torment, it is pretty much the worst thing by definition. So no wonder you're gonna be thinking about all the ins and outs of it over and over again. This is far worse than being attacked by a tiger if you are wrong. "I know all those other scientific 'miracles' are bunk, but maybe this next one has something to it..." And suddenly the worst case scenario seems realer and realer as you contemplate how to deal with it if it actualizes. And then the magic trick is complete as you begin to feel almost as a believer yourself.

Welcome to the psychological tricks that have propelled Christianity and Islam to becoming the most adhered to religions in the world. If the carrot won't get them, the stick will.

"I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
-Thomas Paine
- Stmp01
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Reply #9 - October 09, 2015, 10:41 PM

Hi justperusing, sorry for the late reply, been busy with settling into university and haven't been able to come online for a while.

In the meantime, I've had ample opportunity to address this anxiety, which is a plus!
You make an apt point regarding critical thinking. It seems insanely self-contractory for our Creator (for context's sake by the way) to gift us with the ability for critical thinking and rational deduction, and yet at the same time expect us to believe in it purely from a book that it supposedly got an angel to recite to a man in the Arabian desert 1400 years ago. And top of that, this Creator constantly threatens and mocks those who don't "believe" in said book (saying that disbelievers are the ones who don't reason to top it off!), instead of conveying any sort of transcending wisdom. You said this before, but it helps to put things in perspective by assessing the similar conviction other religious folks hold in their beliefs, though Islam seems the most intimidating in this regard, at the end of the day these are all flawed human beings with no accurate notion of what the divine "truth" could be, if there is any.

You hit the mark when you say we have a tendency to prioritise risk before bliss. In my own experience regarding this anxiety, I often would berate myself if I ever felt happy because "God" would want me to fear him instead, or I'd start reading the Qur'an over and over by random chapters to see if I was rejecting it out of arrogance/pride and so on. Never once did I ever think of Islamic heaven (which is hugely materialistic), because I saw being reprieved from hell as reward enough.

At the end of the day, the carrot and stick approach is why a lot of folks are so devout. Sure, many say that their faith gives them indescribable peace and meaning, but no one can honestly deny that being threatened with hell for things such as not praying is ridiculous. I have a friend who is a former convert and he echoed this sentiment. Even from reading the Qur'an, the number of times Allah glorifies himself is off-putting, sure being the Creator of everything entails certain benefits, but it doesn't seem right when he constantly praises himself. Though I'm dipping into personal feelings here rather than cold hard facts, it's helped a lot.

Anyways, thank you so much for your input mate. You don't have to reply to this post or anything by the way, but your responses helped. Shout out to Questioner and Hassan as well for helping me out.
- Quod Sum Eris
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Reply #10 - October 10, 2015, 12:29 AM

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- ElToro
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Reply #11 - October 13, 2015, 10:13 AM

Hi Stmp,

seems like I haven't seen your post in July and just read it now. You have the same problems and same thoughts like I had regarding Islam and religion in general.

Justperusing was helping me, as well.

So you're not alone, welcome to our forum
- ElToro
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Reply #12 - October 13, 2015, 10:20 AM

By the way, the last post from Gal regarding hell or Jahannam is great. You might want to have a look:

Quote from: gal_from_usa on July 16, 2015, 03:20 AM
I'm filming a video about this topic on Saturday (should be uploaded later in the week)! Jahannam is a real place, and you can go there, but there's no torture happening--unless you're spending time with your family in the swimming pool!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VYCvXp7hEXYYb9OGrK1DV3sEdoZdPjYkWr06s8Ei_O8/edit
- Stmp01
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Reply #13 - October 13, 2015, 04:02 PM

Thanks for the parrots everyone!

Quote from: ElToro on October 13, 2015, 10:13 AM
Hi Stmp,

seems like I haven't seen your post in July and just read it now. You have the same problems and same thoughts like I had regarding Islam and religion in general.

Justperusing was helping me, as well.

So you're not alone, welcome to our forum

Cheers mate, it's been a long and winding road for sure. It does wonders just to know that there are others who know what this sort of anxiety is like, especially when most people have been desensitised to the idea of hell because of how evil it is, and thus find it easier to shrug off.
- justperusing
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Reply #14 - October 31, 2015, 04:13 AM

Glad to hear you are doing well. If you have any problems with anxiety about religion or otherwise, feel free to pm me. I've dealt with an anxiety disorder off and on throughout my life and know my way around techniques to keep it at bay including meds.

"I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
-Thomas Paine
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