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Reply #240 - August 08, 2015, 02:09 AM

Quote from: CallMeTed on August 08, 2015, 01:29 AM
The verse about wife beating is a bit contentious. Some translators translate it as to beat lightly. Which is what I would agree with. One reason being that the wife of Job angered him and he vowed to beat her up but God told him to take some grass and beat his wife with that so that he would not break his vow. Also some of the wives of the prophet Mohammed weren't behaving and God told them that if they didn't the prophet would leave them and get better wives. If it were a care of God wanting to make a law to beat wives it would have been mentioned in the other verses. The lightly beating of a wife is symbolic rather than meant to something violent. The Quran allows men and women to divorce each other so there are ways out for each party rather than having to resort to violence.

Rape - I don't know where in the Quran it says that that is OK.
Slavery - slavery is allowed by God. But there are big misconceptions about it. You'd need to understand more about how it started off historically to get a better understanding of why God allows it. In the Quran God clearly tells the believers to do their best to free slaves either our of their own money or by letting the slave work themselves out of it.

Jesus followed the law. He was defiant of the priesthood in that he told them they were just doing it for show and for the love of impressing people as to show people how holy and pious they were. But on the inside they were greedy, dishonest, materialistic and lacked compassion. The Chosen People are not meant to consider themselves superior to others just as Muslims are ordered not consider themselves superior to others. The Chosen People and Muslims are to serve God by going out and working righteousness for no reward from anyone. Their reward for their good works is to be expected from God in the hereafter. They are not allowed to boast of their good works. Rather they are advised to keep their good works between God.

Any verses regarding hate and violence need to be considered within their context. But basically as Muslims we are OK to hate those who practice evil, those who persecute us simply because we say we believe in God and want to be clean and good. But if those who hate us repent and believe we are to forgive and accept them as brothers in faith. When the prophet Mohammed conquered Mecca there was no violence or hate even though the pagan Meccans had tortured some of the believers and persecuted them for many years.

The verse about wife beating is only contentious because it is so obviously unethical. But it is not "symbolic". Surah an Nisaa gives advice about how to force a wife to obey a husband- by degrees. Beating is part of the worsening punishment the husband inflicts upon the wife until she does what he says. If he were to "symbolically beat" her after first chastising her and leaving her bed, that would not be worse than what had came before, it would be silly. I would personally laugh at any man trying to "symbolically" hit me. He would make a fool of himself.

Rape is condoned in Surah an Nisaa. Where it says that intercourse is forbidden you except among those whom your right hand possesses. This refers to captives, even married captives. Tell me, is that consensual to you, to have intercourse with a married woman whom you have taken as a slave? Can slaves even be considered to give consent, when they have not equal rights or human rights? Does the captive have the right to refuse? No. That is what a captive is. Someone who has had their autonomy taken from them. Someone without free will. That is rape. Pure and fucking simple.

Does that sound like slavery is discouraged, when there are verses making it clear that you can rape your captives? Being nice to slaves is encouraged, but there is no mention of any requirement. Freeing and teaching slaves is encouraged, but not mandatory. Don't you think an omnipotent god could have done better than that?

Jesus was not pissed off so much about appearances as he was about the fact that the law was making things harder for the common people to exist, rather than bringing them closer to God. Jesus released people from the law because the law was making their lives impossible. He wanted the priests to minister to the people rather than collect from them. To grant them ease rather than hardship through strict religious laws that they could hardly keep. Do you know how expensive it is to build a truly kosher kitchen compared to a non-kosher kitchen? How hard it was to even be considered clean enough to eat under strict Judaic practices, when working and poor? You ought to go back to basics. It wasn't about a fashion show.

I asked you already about context. How do you have context without Hadith?

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Reply #241 - August 08, 2015, 02:16 AM

Quote from: CallMeTed on August 08, 2015, 01:40 AM

I don't think you have been paying attention to what I have been saying.

I have been paying attention. It's that YOU do not pay attention when reading religious texts. You start with your idea, and create a narrative around it, and to you, it is real. You created it in your mind, and to you, that makes it real. But that's not going to convince anyone else.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
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Reply #242 - August 08, 2015, 03:38 AM

Quote from: CallMeTed on August 07, 2015, 11:06 PM
Jesus is simply saying telling his Jewish opponents to look at his works and not himself in order to be convinced that he is a prophet of God. Jesus is saying don't take my word for it look at the miracles I am doing to convince yourselves I am doing as God commands since no one could do those miracles except for God. It's the same with all the prophets of God. They simply did as God commanded them to. The Quran repeatedly says "Obey God and obey His Messenger". When you're obeying the command given to the messenger you are obeying God. You're not obeying a mere human being which a messenger is.

Nope he is answering the charges of blasphemy of calling himself God. He says his works will prove his claims. Nothing more. Read John 10 again.

The Quran is irrelevant to Biblical verses
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Reply #243 - August 08, 2015, 05:50 AM

Of course it is. Having sex with slaves and captives, women held against their will, is not done with their consent. That is rape. A women taken as a prisoner of war has just seen her family killed and she is now being held by these killers. Do you think she's in love and willing to have sex with the murderer of her husband or son or father? No. It's rape.

023.006
YUSUFALI: Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame,

070.030
YUSUFALI: Except with their wives and the (captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (then) they are not to be blamed,

004.024
YUSUFALI: Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess:

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 137:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection."

This hadith shows not all slaves and captives were "married" before they were raped. These women were going to be sold. They were just property to do with as the Muslim men pleased. THAT IS RAPE!:

Volume 3, Book 34, Number 432:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

that while he was sitting with Allah's Apostle he said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interrupt us?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 637:
Narrated Buraida:

The Prophet sent 'Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (of the booty) and I hated Ali, and 'Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave-girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, "Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)?" When we reached the Prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, "O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumlus."

This hadith shows how little Muhammad thought of women and slaves:

Sunan Abu-Dawud
Book 11, Number 2155:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If one of you marries a woman or buys a slave, he should say: "O Allah, I ask Thee for the good in her, and in the disposition Thou hast given her; I take refuge in Thee from the evil in her, and in the disposition Thou hast given her." When he buys a camel, he should take hold of the top of its hump and say the same kind of thing.

Sometimes a girl has to be like the snow, beautiful, but cold...
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