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 Topic: Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves

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  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #270 - August 11, 2015, 06:22 PM

     
    bogart was posting about testing Quran to see what it really is - human or God and then you post a text that have nothing to do with it.


    This is correct. Check your own assumptions, do not just assume what you see is God

    Quote
    bogart said violent reaction towards apostasy is commanded by quran, and the followers who do it aren't ignorant, rather they actually follow quran + hadith.


    No this was not my point. It was to show the human reactions from God in the Quran. Threats of violence, death penalties, double-standards, etc, are hallmarks of humans especially found in authoritarian regimes, dictators and tyrants.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #271 - August 11, 2015, 06:27 PM

    They're not related.

    My understanding now is that the earth's gravity is not a natural phenomena but something unnatural. In other words it's not possible for stars and planets to form simply by the action of gravity acting on dust particles. This should be easy to disprove. So far no one has been able to cite any experiment that can be done to confirm that dust or rocks naturally form bigger masses. What we have is just assumptions and people blindly accepting assumptions as scientific fact.


    Actually you have failed to support your own claim. You must show there is an unnatural force doing this. Merely claiming there is one and it is doing it is meaningless. No one is obligated to falsify an unsupported claim.  Also argument from ignorance. While the other explanation has a vast of math and different observations behind it.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #272 - August 11, 2015, 06:49 PM

    Actually you have failed to support your own claim. You must show there is an unnatural force doing this. Merely claiming there is one and it is doing it is meaningless. No one is obligated to falsify an unsupported claim.  Also argument from ignorance. While the other explanation has a vast of math and different observations behind it.


    Excellent. So how do you verify something is an unnatural force?
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #273 - August 11, 2015, 07:24 PM

    Excellent. So how do you verify something is an unnatural force?



    You missed the key part of the post you quoted. Let me try to point it out for you.

    Actually you have failed to support your own claim. You must show there is an unnatural force doing this. Merely claiming there is one and it is doing it is meaningless. No one is obligated to falsify an unsupported claim.  Also argument from ignorance. While the other explanation has a vast of math and different observations behind it.


    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #274 - August 11, 2015, 07:25 PM

    You completely missed my point. My point was not the examples of apostasy or another like that. My point was as follows.

    1. Person X sees something. What you called God and angels aka God hypothesis
    2a. Person X goes for confirmation bias by immediately assuming what they are seeing is what their religion tells them.

    or

    2b. Person X is skeptical and test God hypothesis, as per the Aztec example
    3a (C)onclusion. What they see is in fact God.
    3b. Hypothesis either passes or fails. The Spanish failed the Aztec test since they had human reactions. Parallel: The Quran contains acts which are those of a human.
    4b (C)onclusion: Claim of God are false.

    Hence why God = Impressive display but not verified. You never tested your assumption against anything that would prove your confirmation bias wrong. Also the Aztecs were smarter than you since the Spanish were assumed to be Aztec Gods.


    Again it comes back to what criteria you use to verify God. How do you verify he has infinite power? How do you verify that he created you? I don't think you can grasp this point yet.

    If a person makes a claim that their god is the one who goes to the supermarket and buys them food, who says kind words to the, who is alive and comes to visit them daily. Then that is their god since those things meet their requirement of their god. Hence Thor, Ram, Krishna, Vishnu, a tree, a rock can all be a gods to that person or persons. There are also people who make money their god and their desires. As a "Muslim" I believe in my concept of God to be true - hence I clearly defined my God (incidentally Allah comes from Al- ilah which means The god). I believe this because of my own thinking. I was not born a Muslim I chose it. The concept of the Quranic/Biblical God for me is correct. If it turns out to be false then so be it. What I am doing is challenging and questioning the God of the Quran and Bible just as he says so. So far I have not come across a single thing makes me doubt this God. There are things which I still don't understand but they are nothing which makes me doubt the God of the Quran/Bible.

    The more I read the Quran/Bible the more my beliefs are strengthened.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #275 - August 11, 2015, 07:26 PM


    You missed the key part of the post you quoted. Let me try to point it out for you.



    I'll reword it for you. What will you accept as evidence of an unnatural force?
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #276 - August 11, 2015, 07:29 PM

    I'll reword it for you. What will you accept as evidence of an unnatural force?


    What do you propose as evidence? The number of possible things that could be proposed is too high for us to just list them, so it would be much easier, since YOU are the one making the claim, if we were just to listen to what YOU propose, and then explain why we would or would not accept it.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #277 - August 11, 2015, 07:30 PM

    No this was not my point. It was to show the human reactions from God in the Quran. Threats of violence, death penalties, double-standards, etc, are hallmarks of humans especially found in authoritarian regimes, dictators and tyrants.


    What double-standards?

    Are you saying that because the God of the Quran does things like humans do then he is not God?
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #278 - August 11, 2015, 07:31 PM

    What do you propose as evidence? The number of possible things that could be proposed is too high for us to just list them, so it would be much easier, since YOU are the one making the claim, if we were just to listen to what YOU propose, and then explain why we would or would not accept it.


    If the list is so high then it should very easy for you to list just a few of them.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #279 - August 11, 2015, 07:32 PM

    I'll reword it for you. What will you accept as evidence of an unnatural force?

  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #280 - August 11, 2015, 07:32 PM

    What do you propose as evidence? The number of possible things that could be proposed is too high for us to just list them, so it would be much easier, since YOU are the one making the claim, if we were just to listen to what YOU propose, and then explain why we would or would not accept it.


    It's a bit like guess what number I'm thinking of.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #281 - August 11, 2015, 07:34 PM



    What evidence do you have that that is unnatural?
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #282 - August 11, 2015, 07:37 PM

    galfromusa,

    Have you learnt something about gravity and planet/star formation? Hope it was useful to you.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #283 - August 11, 2015, 07:39 PM

    If the list is so high then it should very easy for you to list just a few of them.


    Socks disappear during the washing process and no one knows where they go. Dogs bark in the middle of the night and no one knows why. Half a dalek was pulled out of a lake in the UK and no one knows where it came from. Some kinds of mushrooms grow in a perfect circle as if they're meant to be seats for fairies. There are tons of things that might possibly be evidence of the supernatural. But we either have not proved that they are or have proved they are not. But if you have a new piece of evidence or a new proposal for a way to get evidence, then we're all ears.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #284 - August 11, 2015, 07:44 PM

    What evidence do you have that that is unnatural?

    Honestly dude, I still don’t see where you’ve made a coherent delineation between “natural” and “unnatural.” From what I’ve gathered, in your world, so long as we don’t fully understand how something works yet, and so long as there is a vague reference to said thing in a translation you read of a 14 century old religious book, it proves that Allah is God and Muhammad was a prophet.

    That said, I honestly don’t really care that much, either. I think you are completely off your rocker. You can take much of what I write to you in the same spirit as you would a leisurely dart game in a bar on a weeknight with a weird stranger. Mildly engaging, fun at times, and barring any side bets by your friends on who wins, completely inconsequential.  
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #285 - August 11, 2015, 07:45 PM

    Socks disappear during the washing process and no one knows where they go. Dogs bark in the middle of the night and no one knows why. Half a dalek was pulled out of a lake in the UK and no one knows where it came from. Some kinds of mushrooms grow in a perfect circle as if they're meant to be seats for fairies. There are tons of things that might possibly be evidence of the supernatural. But we either have not proved that they are or have proved they are not. But if you have a new piece of evidence or a new proposal for a way to get evidence, then we're all ears.


    Lol.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #286 - August 11, 2015, 07:46 PM

    Quote
     So how do you verify something is an unnatural force?

    They're not related.

    My understanding now is that the earth's gravity is not a natural phenomena but something unnatural................

    .................unnatural...............



    Well I propose.,   this god thingy .."heeeee."..  the dick head or dick inside  the head of   faith heads  is an unnatural force inside the brain of these faith heads ..


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #287 - August 11, 2015, 07:51 PM

    Honestly dude, I still don’t see where you’ve made a coherent delineation between “natural” and “unnatural.” From what I’ve gathered, in your world, so long as we don’t fully understand how something works yet, and so long as there is a vague reference to said thing in a translation you read of a 14 century old religious book, it proves that Allah is God and Muhammad was a prophet.

    That said, I honestly don’t really care that much, either. I think you are completely off your rocker. You can take much of what I write to you in the same spirit as you would a leisurely dart game in a bar on a weeknight with a weird stranger. Mildly engaging, fun at times, and barring any side bets by your friends on who wins, completely inconsequential.  


    I accept what you're saying. I've been there. I guess this is what separates believers from non-believers. As the Quran says, only God can guide you. All I can do is pass on the message explain my understandings.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #288 - August 11, 2015, 07:55 PM

    I accept what you're saying. I've been there. I guess this is what separates believers from non-believers. As the Quran says, only God can guide you. All I can do is pass on the message explain my understandings.


    Refresh my memory. What happens again if God decides not to guide me?
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #289 - August 11, 2015, 07:59 PM

    That's for God to decide as far as I know.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #290 - August 11, 2015, 08:00 PM

    Quote
    Refresh my memory. What happens again if God decides not to guide me?


    You will live a hedonistic life. One day, you wake up from your slumber and notice that the day of judgement has arrived. You meet Allah and he says "Time to burn, HM".  However, Ted promptly appears out of nowhere and says to Allah "Al Ghafoor, you have misinterpreted what the Qur'an has to say". Allah reluctantly accepts what Ted has to say,  HM gets sent to heaven.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #291 - August 11, 2015, 08:04 PM

    That's for God to decide as far as I know.

    No, I think the "Most Merciful" is pretty explicit about the whole burning alive thing for the people he chooses to lead astray.

    "And whomsoever Allah guides, he is the follower of the right way, and whomsoever He causes to err, you shall not find for him guardians besides Him; and We will gather them together on the day of resurrection on their faces, blind and dumb and deaf; their abode is hell; whenever it subsides We will add to their burning." 17:97
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #292 - August 11, 2015, 08:08 PM

    ........... As the Quran says, only God can guide you.

    well that is not new thing Ted.. all religious books say that jibberish .. It is a passerby statement .. escapist mentality of  faith heads. It is well known and it is same irrespective of the faith..  
    Quote
    All I can do is pass on the message explain my understandings.

    why ? why you need to pass on message ?  we can read it.. Quran is open book ..  you being a guy who don't know Arabic alphabets YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO DO THAT.,  ..  In fact we should pass on Quran message to you Ted..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #293 - August 11, 2015, 08:14 PM

    No, I think the "Most Merciful" is pretty explicit about the whole burning alive thing for the people he chooses to lead astray.

    "And whomsoever Allah guides, he is the follower of the right way, and whomsoever He causes to err, you shall not find for him guardians besides Him; and We will gather them together on the day of resurrection on their faces, blind and dumb and deaf; their abode is hell; whenever it subsides We will add to their burning." 17:97


    There you go. Be sure to cite that.

    The verse above is misunderstood by many but I'm not going to explain it to you as it needs thought and belief in God to understand it.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #294 - August 11, 2015, 08:15 PM

    well that is not new thing Ted.. all religious books say that jibberish .. It is a passerby statement .. escapist mentality of  faith heads. It is well known and it is same irrespective of the faith..  why ? why you need to pass on message ?  we can read it.. Quran is open book ..  you being a guy who don't know Arabic alphabets YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO DO THAT.,  ..  In fact we should pass on Quran message to you Ted..


    I don't have to I said that's all I can do. There is no requirement for me to preach it.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #295 - August 11, 2015, 08:20 PM

    There you go. Be sure to cite that.

    The verse above is misunderstood by many but I'm not going to explain it to you as it needs thought and belief in God to understand it.


    Humor me. I’m dying to hear your explanation. Don’t worry.  I’m pretty good at adopting a position just for the sake of argument. (And I’m pretty familiar with the mind frame of God’s wretched slaves.) Consider it a part of your mission's due diligence.  Smiley   
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #296 - August 11, 2015, 08:31 PM

    Trust me it's beyond you. Probably beyond what the believers could understand as well.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #297 - August 11, 2015, 08:39 PM

    But you've got it??  Cheesy

    Dude, you take the cake for narcissism.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #298 - August 11, 2015, 08:42 PM

    My apologies. I did warn people about my arrogance.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #299 - August 11, 2015, 09:39 PM

    Humor me. I’m dying to hear your explanation. Don’t worry.  I’m pretty good at adopting a position just for the sake of argument. (And I’m pretty familiar with the mind frame of God’s wretched slaves.) Consider it a part of your mission's due diligence.  Smiley   


    ...oh well since you're dying to hear it I think I must. Nothing to do with getting it out of me.

    In order to understand:

    "And whomsoever Allah guides, he is the follower of the right way, and whomsoever He causes to err, you shall not find for him guardians besides Him; and We will gather them together on the day of resurrection on their faces, blind and dumb and deaf; their abode is hell; whenever it subsides We will add to their burning." 17:97

    You need to understand the concept of the soul ie who YOU are. What you really are. A human is made up of two things. A soul and a physical body. The soul is real and is something that can talk to itself, reason with itself. Once created will exist forever. It has certain "properties". It cannot see or hear or touch or smell or work out calculations or create things. It experiences enjoyment, sadness, pain (not physical), compassion, humility, anger, peace, excitement, etc.  Now to experience these things it needs a body. There is an interface/link between the body and the soul. In order to experience pain the body can be affected to cause pain. In order for the soul to feel happiness the body can affected to cause this. For example by showing it pretty visuals, sweet smells, soothing touches, etc. The soul can be given varying levels of intelligence where intelligence is measured by memory recall, ability to work out calculations, creativity, etc.

    Now the soul also has desires such as wanting pleasures, feeling of importance, egotism, etc. the bad stuff. Some souls are always going to be like this. I don't know why but that's just how it is. Some souls will realise this and try to correct themselves. Some souls hate this and are really "good". When God says he will guide some and cause/leave others to err he is saying that he knows your soul and he knows whether it is worth saving from Hellfire. The souls that reach Hell will never correct themselves. They will say sorry but when you let them off/forgive them they will return to their bad ways. So even though the experience hellfire and are returned to earth they will go back to doing bad instead of making the effort to make themselves good. Why did God create a bad soul? I have no idea. That's just how it is.

    The idea of a soul explains why most things in creation fear God. The earth, stars, mountains, animals, etc. all have a soul. There are verses in the Quran which mention talking ants and birds, rocks sinking due to the fear of God, mountains fearing God, sun/moon prostrating. It's bizarre and hard to believe, I know I've been there myself.

    To kind of get an idea about the soul do this. Find a very quite place, close your eyes, and think. That's you the soul, the thing which is talking to itself. That voice in your head, your conscious.

    Everything you have in the life of this world is temporary. The houses, cars, friends, kids, family, job, money, beauty, love, relationships, etc. For the vast majority of us everything in this life is to test your soul, to learn about God to learn who you really are.

    So to summarise again the meaning of the verse only those souls which God deems worth saving will be saved. How can you save yourself? Be honest, kind, humble, caring, helping, gentle, fearing, patient. Don't mock, or be arrogant, selfish, greedy, materialistic. That way if as an atheist you are wrong you have a backup which may save you. At the end of the day you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
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