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 Topic: Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves

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  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #120 - August 09, 2015, 09:26 PM
    Quote from: Helaine on August 09, 2015, 04:33 PM
    I just read the latest response from the other thread - it reminds me of reddit arguments of muslim trolls who haunt /r/exmuslim

    I rest my case.


    I'd appreciate it if you could post some links to those discussions.
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #121 - August 09, 2015, 09:32 PM
    I appreciate all the questions on the quran but can we focus on the science for now please. Thanks.
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #122 - August 09, 2015, 09:32 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 09, 2015, 08:27 PM
    I can see that. You don't follow the quran closely either.


    This is to anyone who reads this. Please, please, please, if I EVER get involved in stupid waste of time debates again, shoot me!

    You heard - just shoot - a bullet to the head please.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #123 - August 09, 2015, 09:35 PM
    Can I?  Tongue
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #124 - August 09, 2015, 09:47 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 09, 2015, 09:06 PM
    Punishment for who? If anything the man is punishing himself. We need a more objective test for this.


    Withholding affection is a punishment. Children do not develop properly without affection and spouses cannot maintain an emotional connection without it.
    There is no difference between men and women regarding this. Both genders are human.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #125 - August 09, 2015, 09:49 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 09, 2015, 05:45 PM
    How is that a flaw?


    The sun does not orbit around the earth. All Quranic references to the sun assume that it is as the moon, orbiting the earth.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #126 - August 09, 2015, 10:12 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on August 09, 2015, 07:27 PM
    Ted - watch this video I made about 8 years ago - and tell me what you think?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxVHxhDpB4A



    Have you considered that the "punishments" are simply indicators for showing how much the husband is upset/angry with the wife? The wife would know that the beating is the last punishment to which would mean that the husband has reached the limit. After that it would be separation and then divorce.

    I agree, beating a wife is not really going to change them if they won't listen. Sometimes you just have to part ways. I still think not sharing beds is more of a punishment for the man rather than the wife which makes sense that the three punishments mentioned are more symbolic rather than things done to properly hurt the wife.

    Thanks for making me think through this. It makes more sense to me now. Plus you forget the verse about Job's wife. He was ordered to beat his wife with grass. If God really intended the husband to violently beat the wife he would have prescribed the same punishment to Job's wife. And I personally believe Job's wife said something really bad about God yet God did not get angry with her.

    You also need to bear in mind that it's not compulsory to follow these verses about punishing the wife. God never says that if you don't follow this command then you're going to be punished with hellfire or that it's a sin. It's simply given as advice. The vast majority of Muslims I know are scared of their wives. The bad ones are always going to be bad regardless of whether they are Muslims or not.
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #127 - August 09, 2015, 10:17 PM
    Quote from: three on August 09, 2015, 09:47 PM
    Withholding affection is a punishment. Children do not develop properly without affection and spouses cannot maintain an emotional connection without it.
    There is no difference between men and women regarding this. Both genders are human.


    Is this really a bad punishment? I use this with my kids. I don't talk to them or take them out and I find it's quite good although I'm the one who get's bored the quickest.
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #128 - August 09, 2015, 10:24 PM
    Quote from: three on August 09, 2015, 09:49 PM
    The sun does not orbit around the earth. All Quranic references to the sun assume that it is as the moon, orbiting the earth.


    And I totally agree with you. The Bible says the same thing and I'm told to believe that the Quran is a confirmation of the Bible.

    Now this is where things get strange for me. Where I have to keep doing reality checks. As I said before I'm a believer in geocentrism. I wasn't always like and firmly believed that the earth orbited the Sun. However as I have learnt over the years it's not that simple. Something is not quite right (most likely it's with me). But for me there is strong evidence that the sun orbits the earth. I can't prove it yet but I really do believe that science will show that geocentrism is true. However this won't do much to convince the vast majority of non-believers.

    For now I'd like to stay away from the topic of geocentrism.

    So no, I don't find those verses to be a flaw.
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #129 - August 09, 2015, 10:28 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 09, 2015, 10:12 PM
    Have you considered that the "punishments" are simply indicators for showing how much the husband is upset/angry with the wife? The wife would know that the beating is the last punishment to which would mean that the husband has reached the limit. After that it would be separation and then divorce.

    I agree, beating a wife is not really going to change them if they won't listen. Sometimes you just have to part ways. I still think not sharing beds is more of a punishment for the man rather than the wife which makes sense that the three punishments mentioned are more symbolic rather than things done to properly hurt the wife.

    Thanks for making me think through this. It makes more sense to me now. Plus you forget the verse about Job's wife. He was ordered to beat his wife with grass. If God really intended the husband to violently beat the wife he would have prescribed the same punishment to Job's wife. And I personally believe Job's wife said something really bad about God yet God did not get angry with her.

    You also need to bear in mind that it's not compulsory to follow these verses about punishing the wife. God never says that if you don't follow this command then you're going to be punished with hellfire or that it's a sin. It's simply given as advice. The vast majority of Muslims I know are scared of their wives. The bad ones are always going to be bad regardless of whether they are Muslims or not.



    Why would you need a beating as an indication when you have three months of Iddah?
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #130 - August 09, 2015, 10:29 PM
    Quote from: bogart on August 09, 2015, 06:01 PM
    I also find it hilarious that Ted thinks since we have no figured out something within a few years we should give up and say "God did it".


    Please cite where I have said such a thing. I in fact said the opposite. To confirm we should never stop with scientific investigations. We should always keep and open minded and thoroughly exhaust the research as much as we can.
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #131 - August 09, 2015, 10:32 PM
    Quote from: three on August 09, 2015, 10:28 PM
    Why would you need a beating as an indication when you have three months of Iddah?


    3 months is a long time and is much more serious. It may cause major disruptions. The 3 punishments mentioned would cause much less disruption yet are significant enough to be noticed.
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #132 - August 09, 2015, 10:34 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 09, 2015, 02:44 PM
    I think you will find it is a blind assumption. You've not been to cite an experiment where I can get some sand/dust together and see it come together to form a bigger mass which is then capable of attracting more dust/sand.


    I think you will find I gave you three examples of experiments you could do, one being to take your sand and rock outside earth's gravity, the second being to throw your rocks and sand in the air and watch them fall to the ground demonstrating that the gravity being exerted on them by the planet is larger than the gravity they exert on each other, and the third being to do a similar experiment with a magnet and some metal shavings because magnetism is stronger than gravity.

    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 09, 2015, 02:44 PM
    You are now saying I need an environment of zero-gravity to do this, I assume. Which then means you can't do this experiment on earth. Which then confirms it is blind assumption.


    Do you doubt the existence of human space programs?

    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 09, 2015, 02:44 PM

    The stars that astronomers say are forming in clouds of dust - are they forming in an environment of zero-gravity? Think carefully about this.


    It's not zero gravity, because the dust has its own gravity; but it's not a very large amount of gravity because the mass of the dust is very small. So that's why it takes such a very long time for the stars to form out of that cloud. If the cloud of dust was  in the gravitational pull of a large object like an existing star or planet, it wouldn't be able to form into a star or planet, it would fall into the orbit or heart of the star or planet.
    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #133 - August 09, 2015, 10:37 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 09, 2015, 10:29 PM
    Please cite where I have said such a thing. I in fact said the opposite. To confirm we should never stop with scientific investigations. We should always keep and open minded and thoroughly exhaust the research as much as we can.


    One of the most obvious evidence of God is the scientific fact that life cannot be created by humans from scratch, from atoms and molecules. Numerous scientific experiments have been done are being done and have been planned to create life from scratch.

    Argument from ignorance and giving up at an arbitrary point only put forward by you thus is subjective. You argument implies something completely different than the comment this is a reply to. So you are contradicting yourself.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #134 - August 09, 2015, 10:40 PM
    So where did I say we should give up investigating?
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #135 - August 09, 2015, 10:41 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 09, 2015, 10:24 PM
    And I totally agree with you. The Bible says the same thing and I'm told to believe that the Quran is a confirmation of the Bible.

    Now this is where things get strange for me. Where I have to keep doing reality checks. As I said before I'm a believer in geocentrism. I wasn't always like and firmly believed that the earth orbited the Sun. However as I have learnt over the years it's not that simple. Something is not quite right (most likely it's with me). But for me there is strong evidence that the sun orbits the earth. I can't prove it yet but I really do believe that science will show that geocentrism is true. However this won't do much to convince the vast majority of non-believers.

    For now I'd like to stay away from the topic of geocentrism.

    So no, I don't find those verses to be a flaw.


    You are nuts. The Geocentric model has been falsified repeatedly every time we send a probe beyond the Earth.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #136 - August 09, 2015, 10:42 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 09, 2015, 10:40 PM
    So where did I say we should give up investigating?


    By concluding that the inability of creating life is evidence of God.

    Is English your first language? I want to check if this is a language barrier issue.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #137 - August 09, 2015, 10:45 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 09, 2015, 08:58 PM
    The message is simple and it's a confirmation of the Bible.


    LOL that's hilarious. Only a person who doesn't really know the Bible AND doesn't really know the Quran could say that. Want proof? Post a passage of the Bible, and a passage of the Quran that confirms it. I'll wait.

    Also, even if the contents were not mutually exclusive, it wouldn't be too surprising if two books had similar messages if the second book is written by people who may have owned or read copies of the first book. That's called "plagiarism."
    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #138 - August 09, 2015, 10:46 PM
    Quote from: galfromusa on August 09, 2015, 10:34 PM
    I think you will find I gave you three examples of experiments you could do, one being to take your sand and rock outside earth's gravity, the second being to throw your rocks and sand in the air and watch them fall to the ground demonstrating that the gravity being exerted on them by the planet is larger than the gravity they exert on each other, and the third being to do a similar experiment with a magnet and some metal shavings because magnetism is stronger than gravity.

    Do you doubt the existence of human space programs?

    It's not zero gravity, because the dust has its own gravity; but it's not a very large amount of gravity because the mass of the dust is very small. So that's why it takes such a very long time for the stars to form out of that cloud. If the cloud of dust was  in the gravitational pull of a large object like an existing star or planet, it wouldn't be able to form into a star or planet, it would fall into the orbit or heart of the star or planet.


    The first experiment. What do you mean by "take your sand and rock outside earth's gravity". Can this be done? If so how?

    The second one is just a demonstration of the effects of gravity of the earth. What I asked for was experiments to show that dust/sand naturally clump together to form bigger masses which in turn attract more mass.

    The third experiment is not valid as magnetism is not the same as gravity.

    The cloud of dust in which stars form, you do realise that they are in a gravitational field don't you?
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #139 - August 09, 2015, 10:48 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 09, 2015, 08:25 PM
    As expected you didn't answer my question. Is not sharing the bed with your wife punishment?  


    You are denying the existence and validity of female sexuality. Also, you are denying the fact that in a culture where a woman's only value is tied up in her popping out sons, that denying her the ability to become pregnant is a denial of any value.
    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #140 - August 09, 2015, 10:48 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on August 09, 2015, 08:15 PM
    I tried to be as fair as I could and give the benefit of the doubt in the favour of the most sympathetic understanding possible - so that no-one could accuse me of "twisting" things as Muslims always do.

    I wanted Muslims to see for themselves the reality without any excuse to dismiss it.


    Ah, Hassan i was referring to Three's post above yours, sorry  : )  I shall watch this video in a minute, i keep meaning to watch them all  ..
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #141 - August 09, 2015, 10:48 PM
    Quote from: bogart on August 09, 2015, 10:42 PM
    By concluding that the inability of creating life is evidence of God.

    Is English your first language? I want to check if this is a language barrier issue.


    Yes, it's evidence of God. That doesn't mean it couldn't be proved to be wrong later. Are you familiar with scientific theories being revised based on new evidence?
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #142 - August 09, 2015, 10:50 PM
    Quote from: galfromusa on August 09, 2015, 10:48 PM
    You are denying the existence and validity of female sexuality. Also, you are denying the fact that in a culture where a woman's only value is tied up in her popping out sons, that denying her the ability to become pregnant is a denial of any value.


    Lol. Smiley
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #143 - August 09, 2015, 10:53 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 09, 2015, 10:50 PM
    Lol. Smiley


    Don't know what you find funny about that. I'm 100% serious.
    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #144 - August 09, 2015, 10:55 PM
    This guy thinks the sun goes around the earth.

    Please stop wasting your words on him. He's not well.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #145 - August 09, 2015, 11:01 PM
    yep, somethings not right..
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #146 - August 09, 2015, 11:17 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on August 09, 2015, 10:55 PM
    This guy thinks the sun goes around the earth.

    Please stop wasting your words on him. He's not well.


    Agreed -.-

    Pointless really.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #147 - August 09, 2015, 11:20 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 09, 2015, 10:24 PM
    So no, I don't find those verses to be a flaw.

    Unfortunately, the universe doesn't conform to what you believe is true.

    Fortunately, I've never met someone this stupid in real life yet; only on the Internet. Thank the Lord Jesus.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #148 - August 10, 2015, 12:03 AM
    Everything cool happens when I'm away. Someone TL;DR me. Qtian?
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #149 - August 10, 2015, 12:27 AM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 09, 2015, 10:32 PM
    3 months is a long time and is much more serious. It may cause major disruptions. The 3 punishments mentioned would cause much less disruption yet are significant enough to be noticed.


    You stated that a beating would be a sort of indication that there was a serious issue and that separation would be pending. Yet this is what the Iddah is for, so the beating is not about that. The instructions in Surah an Nisaa are for forcing a wife to obey her husband, not the steps leading to talaq.
    I assure you that an assault is more traumatic than an Iddah.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
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