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 Topic: Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.

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  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     OP - August 16, 2015, 10:45 PM

    One of the things that I really cannot get past is that the Abrahamic religions are very unfair to women. I began to post on Ummah.com asking questions about whether Allah favours men over women but the answers I have recieved have either been unsatisfactory or have made me feel even more disconnected from the religion. An example: a man gets a second wife, making his first wife very jealous and heartbroken so she seeks a divorce. The reaction people like many of the posters on Ummah.com is that the woman is at fault for being jealous and that she should have stood by her husband. She should not react to the situation as a woman naturally would but should become A-OK with the thought of her husband sleeping with another woman in order to accommodate him. On the other hand he does not need to control his urges by not getting a second wife in order to accommodate her.

    I have also found posters over there justifying the rape of "kafir" slave women, a few even implying that it's OK to rape prepubescent girls and they justified this by saying that it was a common practice among the Prophet Muhammad and his companions. If that turns out to be true, there is no way that I can continue to follow him.

    Then there is the fact that a wife only has the right to dowry and maintenance from her husband whereas he has so many rights over her and can even hit her ("lightly"  Roll Eyes ) if she is disobedient. Yet after all these restrictions women are still the majority in Hell for gossiping and being "ungrateful wives" when most warmongers and and serial killers nowadays are me??? SMH

    I can go on and on, but I don't know what to do. What was your primary reason for leaving Islam? I am not sure if everything I have said has made me apostate but if I decided to leave the religion officially, I would have several reason with sexism probably being the primary one.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #1 - August 16, 2015, 11:07 PM

    Perhaps the concept of Hell was the major factor - though it was not really a single issue - it was lots of issues.

    In regards to the treatment of women, I found verse 34 of al-Nisa very disturbing and could never square it with my conscience.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #2 - August 16, 2015, 11:08 PM

    In fact it was that verse that prompted me to make one of the first videos I made criticising Islam way back about 8 years ago now - I will find it for you.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #3 - August 16, 2015, 11:10 PM

    here it is...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxVHxhDpB4A

  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #4 - August 16, 2015, 11:16 PM

    Ummah.com sounds grimm, must take a look again..

    same reasons as you OP, treatment of women..   I took the etiquettes to the extreme though, never spoke to a guy, only if necessary, no eye contact, strict segregation in my home, i never mixed with any men atall, i guess i'd had enough.. It was a culture shock coming back to the western lifestyle and talking to men again, was also very difficult.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #5 - August 16, 2015, 11:17 PM

    Perhaps the concept of Hell was the major factor - though it was not really a single issue - it was lots of issues.

    In regards to the treatment of women, I found verse 34 of al-Nisa very disturbing and could never square it with my conscience.


    Yes, Hell is another massive issue that I can't come to terms with. We are always told that Allah is the most Merciful, yet He is allowing His own creation to be tortured in Hell for all of eternity? That is beyond cruel and it is unfair because some non-Muslims are genuinely good people and some Muslims are rotten to the core. Yet those bad Muslims will eventually go to Jannah as opposed to the good job-Muslims?
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #6 - August 16, 2015, 11:18 PM

     parrot

    Welcome. It is a bitter pill to swallow. I was told the opposite, when I was Muslim everyone was in denial on the issue of rape and slavery and prepubescent girls. They explained it away by whatever means they could. When I finally got a little bit of Arabic under my belt, just enough to know a few words that mattered in Surah an Nisaa, then I understood I had been lied to by apologists all my adult life.
    Hopefully now that the truth of Quran is out, there will be more people choosing not to perpetuate it.
    Take it slow. It can be heartbreaking, so nurse yourself through it.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #7 - August 16, 2015, 11:19 PM

    Ummah.com sounds grimm, must take a look again..

    same reasons as you OP, treatment of women..   I took the etiquettes to the extreme though, never spoke to a guy, only if necessary, no eye contact, strict segregation in my home, i never mixed with any men atall, i guess i'd had enough.. It was a culture shock coming back to the western lifestyle and talking to men again, was also very difficult.


    I know families who forced these strict rules on their daughter (though I am aware that some women choose to follow them) and the poor girls ended up going off the rails once they managed to get a bit of freedom.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #8 - August 16, 2015, 11:21 PM

    One of the things that I really cannot get past is that the Abrahamic religions are very unfair to women. I began to post on Ummah.com asking questions about whether Allah favours men over women but the answers I have recieved have either been unsatisfactory or have made me feel even more disconnected from the religion. An example: a man gets a second wife, making his first wife very jealous and heartbroken so she seeks a divorce. The reaction people like many of the posters on Ummah.com is that the woman is at fault for being jealous and that she should have stood by her husband. She should not react to the situation as a woman naturally would but should become A-OK with the thought of her husband sleeping with another woman in order to accommodate him. On the other hand he does not need to control his urges by not getting a second wife in order to accommodate her.

    I have also found posters over there justifying the rape of "kafir" slave women, a few even implying that it's OK to rape prepubescent girls and they justified this by saying that it was a common practice among the Prophet Muhammad and his companions. If that turns out to be true, there is no way that I can continue to follow him.

    Then there is the fact that a wife only has the right to dowry and maintenance from her husband whereas he has so many rights over her and can even hit her ("lightly"  Roll Eyes ) if she is disobedient. Yet after all these restrictions women are still the majority in Hell for gossiping and being "ungrateful wives" when most warmongers and and serial killers nowadays are me??? SMH

    I can go on and on, but I don't know what to do. What was your primary reason for leaving Islam? I am not sure if everything I have said has made me apostate but if I decided to leave the religion officially, I would have several reason with sexism probably being the primary one.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSwJuOPG4FI

    Skip to 1:53:44 and listen to the question being asked and subsequent answer by Hamza Tzortzis (the one pertaining to reality). I think this short exchange sums up why I had to break away from Islam on principal reasons along with all other forms of religion.  
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #9 - August 16, 2015, 11:22 PM

    parrot

    Welcome. It is a bitter pill to swallow. I was told the opposite, when I was Muslim everyone was in denial on the issue of rape and slavery and prepubescent girls. They explained it away by whatever means they could. When I finally got a little bit of Arabic under my belt, just enough to know a few words that mattered in Surah an Nisaa, then I understood I had been lied to by apologists all my adult life.
    Hopefully now that the truth of Quran is out, there will be more people choosing not to perpetuate it.
    Take it slow. It can be heartbreaking, so nurse yourself through it.


    True, I was also told these things but encountering fanatics such as the ones I spoke to on Ummah.com was a real eye-opener. They did not try to hide anything; to them it was take it or leave it.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #10 - August 16, 2015, 11:23 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSwJuOPG4FI

    Skip to 1:53:44 and listen to the question being asked and subsequent answer by Hamza Tzortzis (the one pertaining to reality). I think this short exchange sums up why I had to break away from Islam on principal reasons along with all other forms of religion.  


    Thanks for the link. It's late here in England so I will need to get some rest but will take a look at it in the morning.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #11 - August 16, 2015, 11:28 PM

    AGirlWithNoDoubts   it's misogyny, history , philosophy and a bit of questioning that led me to become who I am   Smiley


    I think it'll be the same with you. You'll embark on a journey where there wont be any boundaries and no fictional hell. Where you wont bow your head to an insecure God or for every tiny movement, make sure that you are doing the right thing.

    You wont judge someone based on their religion or personal beliefs. You'll see beyond the material heaven that Allah has promised. You'll see beyond the absurd eternal punishment for finite humans...

    You'll see beyond a book that is only 1400 years old!





  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #12 - August 16, 2015, 11:28 PM

    That is beyond cruel and it is unfair because some non-Muslims are genuinely good people and some Muslims are rotten to the core. Yet those bad Muslims will eventually go to Jannah as opposed to the good job-Muslims?

    The worst muslim is better than the best non muslim. The reason for this islamically is because the worst sin is shirk. It used to be just believing in more than one god but in recent years atheists have been included as well. Disbelief in allah is the worst islamic sin. A muslim could rape a baby and islamically still have a shot at paradise while people like Martin Luther King and Gandhi will go straight to hell.

    The thing is, not agreeing with something doesn't make it false. Being disgusted by something does not make it less true. What makes it untrue is the fact that it's untrue, and most people on CEMB, myself included, are of the opinion that islam is not true and allah does not exist.

    This isn't to say you should take our word for it. There are threads about morality, threads about hell, threads about islam, threads about atheism, threads about a lot of things. Take your time. Explore. You may find that you can interpret islam in a way that fits your own beliefs and morality and go through life happily calling yourself a muslim, or you may come to the conclusion, like most here, that islam is false.. There's no rush, and whether you end up a muslim or an ex-muslim is completely fine. Don't let anyone pressure you either way.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #13 - August 16, 2015, 11:36 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSwJuOPG4FI

    Skip to 1:53:44 and listen to the question being asked and subsequent answer by Hamza Tzortzis (the one pertaining to reality). I think this short exchange sums up why I had to break away from Islam on principal reasons along with all other forms of religion.  

    Was it actually that debate that made you leave or does Hamza just do a good job of summarizing?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #14 - August 16, 2015, 11:54 PM

    The second reason that led to my doubts was the prayer, I  didn't feel any connection to a god, the movements were distracting me from finding the connection.. I didn't understand the concept of worship, nor any purpose in prostrating to a god either.. Why would a god, other than a pagan diety require me to worship him, i understood the being grateful and thankful part but not idolizing or venerating.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #15 - August 16, 2015, 11:59 PM

    A while ago a muslim member asked for our five strongest arguments against the quran. This was my reply.

    So I thought I'd expand on the above, because I honestly meant these to be arguments.

    1) The quran:

    The quran claims itself to be the perfect uncorrupted word of god. That's it's biggest flaw. It invites challenge in a way other holy texts don't, and is really to arrogant for it's own good. The level is enough that it doesn't have the flexibility needed to stand the test of time. The fact that it doesn't have this flexibility, and that it needs it in the first place, is an argument against it in my opinion.

    2) Sanity

    There's only so much a human being can reasonably be held accountable for when it comes to spiritual matters. There's a verse in the quran which says allah has not given us two hearts. I personally view this as metaphorical, not literal. We view and believe certain things a certain way. I cannot at the same time believe in the quran while seeing flaws in it.

    3) Reality

    The quran, like all the other holy texts, claims to be the word of god. The way to verify this is testing it, see if it stacks up. Quite frankly it doesn't. Dust devils and jinns, spontaneous human creation, great flood, there's a lot to choose from, but I'll pick a few.

    The story of the arc and the great flood. This would have happened around 4000 years ago. It's quite simply impossible for the number of races, ethnicities and the huge amount of genetic traits to come from one incestuous family in just 4000 years. It cannot happen. Something else that puts a hole in the story is the amount of people who were thriving at this point. God flooded the entire world. Except for the Chinese who were developing at an incredible rate and remained unaffected from a global flood that wiped out every human on the planet. The Japanese were also unaffected. And the Africans. And the Europeans. And the Native Americans. And the Aztecs. And the South Americans. And most of the middle east.  The flood never happened. It's not real.

    The quran teaches that humans were created from clay in a specific creation. If you're to count on the hadiths, then it's just even more ludicrous. We know the first human was not a 90 foot tall clay giant. Even if you don't take the hadiths into account, it also doesn't account for evolution, the proof of which is overwhelming. Nor does it account for the number of people today who have Neanderthal DNA in them from before the Neanderthals went extinct. Everything I know to be proven fact contradicts the claims of the quran. The only logical conclusion I can come to is that it was a story told by ancient societies because they didn't have any answers. Adam never existed. It's not real.

    The sun orbits the Earth...yeah, we've known that's bullshit for a few centuries now.

    It says in the quran that in the embryo/foetus the bones are the first thing to form. "So we made the clot a morsel, so we made the morsel bones, so we clothed the bones (with) meat". This is wrong. The skeleton is actually among the last to be formed. You'd think the all knowing creator of everything would realise this. It's wrong.

    The stars are missiles to be hurled at jinns. Or they hunt demons. I haven't read the quran in a while so I can't remember the exact quote, but you can look it up to see exactly what it says. This is also wrong. The stars are just stars, they do the exact same thing as the star we orbit, the sun.

    Women are defective in intelligence. Coming from a culture where gender mixing is the norm and close relationships aren't looked down upon, I can tell you this isn't true from my own experience. And then there's current trends in school grades, sciences, IQ and employment performance, the fact there are women in MENSA (if you don't know MENSA is like a super genius club, only 2% of the human population globally have a high enough IQ to qualify for membership). Now we live in an age men and women have equal rights, women are on the same level and even starting to out preform men. So I'm going to say this is wrong.

    4) Nonsense

    Do you believe that allah puts a veil over our hearts? If the answer to this is yes, then my reply to that would be that I'm blameless. If the reason I don't see the truth of islam is because allah put a veil over my heart, then it stands to reason I'll be punished (by being sent to hell) for a crime I didn't commit. My reason for saying I'm being punished for a crime I didn't commit is that allah delibertly put a veil over my heart so I would never know him, therefore the fault is allah's, not mine.

    Do you believe nothing happens accept by allah's will? If so then it's the same as above. If nothing happens except by allah's will, then allah made sure I wouldn't believe in him. So again the fault lies with allah, not myself.

    Do you believe islam teaches there's no compulsion in religion? If so does that mean if you don't accept islam as true, then you go to hell? If so, this means that allah has told us something to be taken as truth, and he punishes us for taking him at his word instead of assuming he was lying.

    Do you believe in the virgin birth? If so, can you understand why I might think it's more likely that a teenage girl told a lie rather than a virgin magically conceiving a child, carrying it to term, birthing it, and the child while still an infant speaking?

    Can you also understand why it may be confusing that said infant would only speak once to a few people and refuse to speak again to others, which would cause all doubt in the divinity of allah to be wiped away?

    Here's a situation. Let's say there's something in your house you don't like. It offends you. Let's also say you have the power of a god. Would you A) throw away the thing you didn't like or give it to charity, or B) bring it to life, give it intelligence so it can understand what's happening, enable it to feel pain, and torture it forever and ever and ever? Which is more merciful?

    5) Common sense

    It becomes a common sense issue. Let's say that I'm wrong. Let's say all the things I'm of the opinion are true are wrong. It doesn't change the fact that I find the quran unbelievable. I can't have more knowledge than what's available to me. Let's take evolution. I find it believable. I'm convinced of it. The quran goes against it. I have no reason whatsoever, nothing at all compelling me to believe the quranic story over proven scientific fact.

    Or another, let's take the big bang. I'm convinced by what knowledge I have that before the universe, and after the universe, there was no Earth. This planet did not exist. It took a very long time for our star to be born and for our planet to form. This seems plausible to me. From what I know of physics and cosmology, I can accept this. I have no reason whatsoever to believe that the Earth existed from the start and was ripped apart from heaven.

    Or another. The quran and hadiths suggest a flat Earth. At one point it's spread out like a carpet, at another the Earth is like an ostrich egg (had to pick the bird that buries it's egg and flattens the soil), allah will roll up the Earth like parchment/paper, and on and on it goes. Everything I'm aware of tells me this is wrong. It becomes less and less believable to me. So with all this in mind, common sense tells me that the only truth that lies hidden in the quran is simply the truths of the cultural norms and mindset of that society and time. Historically and psychologically it's interesting, but that's all it is. No more, no less.

    And I have to admit, these aren't even my strongest arguments. I haven't thought about this endlessly, I haven't delved into the theology to throw things at you. The above is just what came to mind as I sit here filling the time on a lazy Sunday evening.


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #16 - August 16, 2015, 11:59 PM

    @QSE: Not really my dear friend but I think in hindsight it was what tipped the scale. The debate occurred around the time I stopped believing and I remember listening to this while preparing for my exams. It's the part when Krauss asks him if his beliefs don't have to conform to physical reality in order to be true that was the nail in the coffin. Fucking fraud  finmad

    I can't believe I bought into this miracle of Qur'an bullshit.  

      
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #17 - August 17, 2015, 12:02 AM

    You have to remember I was a firm believer in Islam since the age of 16 largely due to the so-called miracles of Qur'an. To hear this twat say 8-10 years later that he doesn't even accept physical evidence is like being spat in the face.

    Why were they peddling this bullshit all these years? 
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #18 - August 17, 2015, 12:03 AM

    When I was a kid my dad told me that God answers every dua you make during Friday prayers. So I made dua that God fills my room with money. I went back home and into my room and saw that it was not filled from floor to ceiling with banknotes. That's when I knew.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #19 - August 17, 2015, 12:31 AM

    ^that's the best so far lol
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #20 - August 17, 2015, 12:33 AM

    Pretty much how I stopped believing in Santa Claus.
    I wrote a letter with a list of things I wanted him to bring and put in my drawer. The next day there were no gifts  Cry
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #21 - August 17, 2015, 12:40 AM

    ^that's the best so far lol

    Not the thing that made me stop believing, but definitely something that made me smell the bullshit. I've been testing God using such methods since I was a young kid.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #22 - August 17, 2015, 01:42 AM

    Misogynistic verses in the quran was a major reason for me to see the bullshit in Islam as well. Anyway, there are many, many reasons that it's not true. Ultimately, Islam's central claims about reality simply have no evidence to support them and thus ought to be discarded for mine.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #23 - August 17, 2015, 01:56 AM

    Not the thing that made me stop believing, but definitely something that made me smell the bullshit. I've been testing God using such methods since I was a young kid.


    I love how in the Bible, it says not to test God:

    Deuteronomy 6:16
    Quote
    6 Ye shall not try the LORD your God, as ye tried Him in Massah.

     (they demanded that he prove he could provide food/water for them so he did and then choked them to death with it)

    Luke 4:12
    Quote
    And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.


    Then there's other lines where people are chastised for FAILING to test God or spirits:

    1 John 4:1
    Quote
    Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.


    Isaiah 7:10-14
    Quote
    10 And the LORD spoke again unto Ahaz, saying: 11 'Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God: ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.' 12 But Ahaz said: 'I will not ask, neither will I try the LORD.' 13 And he said: 'Hear ye now, O house of David: Is it a small thing for you to weary men, that ye will weary my God also? [God through Isaiah to Ahaz: "I'm sick of your shit, Ahaz. I said ask for a sign, now you're just wasting my time."] 14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.


    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #24 - August 17, 2015, 09:53 AM

    A while ago a muslim member asked for our five strongest arguments against the quran. This was my reply.



    That's pretty damn brilliant! Honestly I think what might be easier for me in the future is that I just don't go by a label until I can be completely certain what I believe (or don't believe).
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #25 - August 17, 2015, 09:55 AM

    When I was a kid my dad told me that God answers every dua you make during Friday prayers. So I made dua that God fills my room with money. I went back home and into my room and saw that it was not filled from floor to ceiling with banknotes. That's when I knew.


    Whenever my prayers were not answered I was told that God was testing my faith.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #26 - August 17, 2015, 10:04 AM

    AGirlWithNoDoubts   it's misogyny, history , philosophy and a bit of questioning that led me to become who I am   Smiley


    I think it'll be the same with you. You'll embark on a journey where there wont be any boundaries and no fictional hell. Where you wont bow your head to an insecure God or for every tiny movement, make sure that you are doing the right thing.

    You wont judge someone based on their religion or personal beliefs. You'll see beyond the material heaven that Allah has promised. You'll see beyond the absurd eternal punishment for finite humans...

    You'll see beyond a book that is only 1400 years old!







    It is very strange that we need to remember Allah before everything that we do. It is strange and suffocating. We're told that God does not need our prayers so why the excess?
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #27 - August 17, 2015, 10:41 AM

    Tell your women that Islam is not sexist. Make sure that you tell them two at a time, in case one forgets.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #28 - August 17, 2015, 10:55 AM

     Cheesy

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #29 - August 17, 2015, 11:14 AM

    That's pretty damn brilliant! Honestly I think what might be easier for me in the future is that I just don't go by a label until I can be completely certain what I believe (or don't believe).

    Thanks. Smiley I think not labelling yourself until you know for sure what your opinions are is a smart way to go.
    Why would a god, other than a pagan diety require me to worship him

    Why does it make sense that a pagan god would require worship but not make sense that a sky father god would?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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