Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
Today at 01:32 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
Today at 09:01 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Today at 08:53 AM

New Britain
Yesterday at 08:17 AM

Gaza assault
by zeca
November 27, 2024, 07:13 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
November 24, 2024, 06:05 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 22, 2024, 06:45 AM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
November 19, 2024, 11:36 PM

Dutch elections
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 10:11 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 08:46 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 07, 2024, 09:56 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
November 02, 2024, 12:56 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Can Islam be Reformed?

 (Read 15002 times)
  • 12 3 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     OP - September 08, 2015, 12:28 PM

    The problem the majority of ordinary reasonable Muslims face in this day and age is that while privately their heart and mind may agree with many liberal views, they must first somehow squeeze and twist the texts of the Quran and Hadith into supporting them before publicly acknowledging they agree with them.

    When young Muslims compare what liberal and progressive Muslims say with what the literalists and hardliners say they are faced with the inescapable truth that the hardliners are being far more honest and true to the Qur'an and Hadith, while the liberals & progressives are at best highly selective and at worst downright dishonest when they claim Islam upholds thing like LBGT rights, freedom of religion, gender equality, and so on…

    Since the Qur'an is regarded as the infallible word of God - and you do not argue with God - the choice is a no brainer for the young and sincere Muslim trying to be true to his faith and avoid eternal damnation in Hell.

    This is why we will never be able to defeat harsh literalist forms of Islam and why liberal and progressive forms of Islam will always remain a tiny minority movement.

    But there is an answer. It is simple and honest...

    Read the rest here:

    https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1691660931068729&id=100006745147497

  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #1 - September 08, 2015, 01:22 PM

    Oh you tease...  Wink

    Okay, I'll click on the link then.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #2 - September 08, 2015, 02:04 PM

    Quote
    The problem the majority of ordinary reasonable Muslims face in this day and age is that while privately their heart and mind may agree with many liberal views, they must first somehow squeeze and twist the texts of the Quran and Hadith into supporting them before publicly acknowledging they agree with them.


    I understand what you are saying here, but I’m not sure that is actually the case. For the most part, I’m not sure your average Muslim is faced with the reality of some of the nastier parts of Islam on a regular basis. Unless you are intimately familiar with Islamic texts and their contexts (asbab an-nuzul, etc.), or unless you happen to find yourself in an environment where psychopaths are combing through the text in order to bring out the most barbaric practices and bring them back to life, then you simply are not confronted with those things in a real way.

    For your average, decent Muslim, there is plenty of “good stuff” in the Qur’an and sunnah, enough to make the nasty stuff irrelevant. Beheadings, slavery, amputations. Even when you read about those things as an average, decent Muslim, they don’t stand out as real in a way that needs confronting.  They are confined to the pages of old books. The Islam that you actually live really is all about praying, feeding the poor, being truthful, and being good to your neighbor (and lots of self-repression). The other stuff sounds completely foreign.

    In fact, just the other day, I was thinking of some of your writings regarding God, Hassan, and the thought crossed my mind that many sunni scholars would probably just dismiss you as a modern day jahmi. Then, I began thinking of the refutations of Jahm ibn Safwan, and how his teacher, Ja’d ibn Dirham, was BEHEADED for his views. “Oh people, commence your sacrifice, may Allah accept it from you. I am sacrificing Ja’d ibn Dirham, because he says that Allah did not (actually) take Ibrahim as a friend and did not (actually) speak to Musa with words.”

    The thing is, I had read that story numerous times, but I only saw in it a refutation of the doctrine that denied God’s attributes. Never did it click in my mind that I was actually studying and upholding the ideology of people who beheaded a man for expressing rather reasonable views! But if you were to have shown me videos of ISIS at that time, I would likely have accused them of being “extremists” who had “nothing to do” with Islam. And that was with my level of exposure, which was probably more than your average “decent” Muslim.

    Ultimately, I think there are several different camps at play. The first are the good intentioned, ignorant Muslims who, through barriers of language or their own naivety, simply don’t know enough about Islamic sources to paint the full picture for themselves. They are the ones who believe that Muhammad really was all about emancipating slaves and empowering women. They cite the same extracted examples that we’ve all heard: Bilal ibn Rabah calling the athan above the Ka’bah, or Muhammad’s wife Um Salama giving him the profound advice of enacting his own commands before expecting his followers to follow suit in Hudaybiyyah. These “prove” the status of freed slaves and women in Islam. And it’s enough. You never have to discuss the capture of Safiyyah bint Huyay or the torture of Ka’b. For them, Muhammad’s battles were all in self-defense.  His interactions with others were always benevolent and peaceful. “Slaughter a sheep and distribute its meat. Start with our Jewish neighbor.” And so on. Honestly, that is the Muhammad I was taught about growing up. A Mercy for all the Worlds.

    The second camp are those who know the full picture but have a vested interest in keeping up the façade. Either their jobs as preachers depend on it, or they have fooled themselves into thinking that they can be the gatekeepers of knowledge, only letting the nice bits seep out in order to “guide” the community. These are the ones I think you are referring to, Hassan. I agree with you that they are at best highly selective and at worst downright dishonest. And they are. 

    The last camp are the ones like you who know the full picture and all its implications – and are honest about it all. They will be faced, if they have a shred of decency, with an inevitable crisis of faith. That is a very difficult position for most to be vocal about because I think they know that Islam in general is just a house of cards built just across from an open window. There really is nothing to it, so it makes such grand claims for itself. Doubt and disbelief in the miraculous infallibility of this house of cards, then, becomes paramount.

    The impressive part is that this also demonstrates the true power of faith (call it conviction, if you will.) People believe this entire system called Islam that has been built literally on nothing but words. It’s remarkable. And it is remarkable what can happen so long as people don’t lose faith.

    I’ll digress just a bit here in my rambling, but I’ll try to tie it all back in to my final point. Think about this. Muhammad never had a single miracle, but people still believe in him as a prophet of God. He never came up with a single original story, but people still believe in him as a prophet of God. He behaved essentially like any other desert chieftain in the 7th century, but his legacy lived on because people believed he was a prophet of God. He got entangled in multiple sex scandals, ones that would usually ruin the career of your average religious leader, but he was able to pull through because people believed he was a prophet of God.

    So, the thing that you are asking them to do by admitting that the Qur’an is not divine is essentially to lose faith in the one thing that makes the house of cards stand on its own. It’s essentially kufr from everyone’s perspective, the one thing that cannot be forgiven. And people are scared shitless to approach it because they know very well what it actually means.

    Though, I think if people did go there with you, they would find that Islam does not simply melt away once you admit you don’t actually believe that it is entirely and divinely true. They’d find the freedom to admire the beauty, comfort, and guidance that centuries of Islamic thought can give them without having to force themselves into ignorant or dishonest positions.

    They’d find that even Muhammad himself becomes a much more impressive character, a much more understandable character, a much more complex character, when you admit that he was nothing more than a remarkable, and remarkably flawed human being. Because what the unlettered prophet was able to give to the Arabs, and even to all of us here still talking about him, was nothing short of amazing.

    They’d find that Islam could take its place amongst all great religious traditions that humanity has developed,  not as God’s way of reaching down to us, but instead as our way of coming together and reaching up to God – whatever God may or may not be. 

    But it’s a radical shift and most people will not be comfortable with it.
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #3 - September 08, 2015, 02:19 PM

    HM, there is a 4th party. Those that believe the nasty commands were from God thus not immoral but examples of God having a "purpose" or intent which humans later completed. Those that see slavery as justified so that people do not starve to death. This is after their livelihood had been destroyed by their soon to be masters  whistling2 Everything is filtered through the ideology that God can do no wrong thus everything must have a positive result no matter how horrible the methods used. The ends justifies the means mixed with Divine Command theory.
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #4 - September 08, 2015, 02:22 PM

    I was actually going to include them, then figured they were implicit in the discussion, as we were discussing the decent, non-psychopaths.  Smiley
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #5 - September 08, 2015, 02:46 PM

    I understand what you are saying here, but I’m not sure that is actually the case. For the most part, I’m not sure your average Muslim is faced with the reality of some of the nastier parts of Islam on a regular basis. Unless you are intimately familiar with Islamic texts and their contexts (asbab an-nuzul, etc.), or unless you happen to find yourself in an environment where psychopaths are combing through the text in order to bring out the most barbaric practices and bring them back to life, then you simply are not confronted with those things in a real way.

    For your average, decent Muslim, there is plenty of “good stuff” in the Qur’an and sunnah, enough to make the nasty stuff irrelevant. Beheadings, slavery, amputations. Even when you read about those things as an average, decent Muslim, they don’t stand out as real in a way that needs confronting.  They are confined to the pages of old books. The Islam that you actually live really is all about praying, feeding the poor, being truthful, and being good to your neighbor (and lots of self-repression). The other stuff sounds completely foreign.

    In fact, just the other day, I was thinking of some of your writings regarding God, Hassan, and the thought crossed my mind that many sunni scholars would probably just dismiss you as a modern day jahmi. Then, I began thinking of the refutations of Jahm ibn Safwan, and how his teacher, Ja’d ibn Dirham, was BEHEADED for his views. “Oh people, commence your sacrifice, may Allah accept it from you. I am sacrificing Ja’d ibn Dirham, because he says that Allah did not (actually) take Ibrahim as a friend and did not (actually) speak to Musa with words.”

    The thing is, I had read that story numerous times, but I only saw in it a refutation of the doctrine that denied God’s attributes. Never did it click in my mind that I was actually studying and upholding the ideology of people who beheaded a man for expressing rather reasonable views! But if you were to have shown me videos of ISIS at that time, I would likely have accused them of being “extremists” who had “nothing to do” with Islam. And that was with my level of exposure, which was probably more than your average “decent” Muslim.

    Ultimately, I think there are several different camps at play. The first are the good intentioned, ignorant Muslims who, through barriers of language or their own naivety, simply don’t know enough about Islamic sources to paint the full picture for themselves. They are the ones who believe that Muhammad really was all about emancipating slaves and empowering women. They cite the same extracted examples that we’ve all heard: Bilal ibn Rabah calling the athan above the Ka’bah, or Muhammad’s wife Um Salama giving him the profound advice of enacting his own commands before expecting his followers to follow suit in Hudaybiyyah. These “prove” the status of freed slaves and women in Islam. And it’s enough. You never have to discuss the capture of Safiyyah bint Huyay or the torture of Ka’b. For them, Muhammad’s battles were all in self-defense.  His interactions with others were always benevolent and peaceful. “Slaughter a sheep and distribute its meat. Start with our Jewish neighbor.” And so on. Honestly, that is the Muhammad I was taught about growing up. A Mercy for all the Worlds.

    The second camp are those who know the full picture but have a vested interest in keeping up the façade. Either their jobs as preachers depend on it, or they have fooled themselves into thinking that they can be the gatekeepers of knowledge, only letting the nice bits seep out in order to “guide” the community. These are the ones I think you are referring to, Hassan. I agree with you that they are at best highly selective and at worst downright dishonest. And they are. 

    The last camp are the ones like you who know the full picture and all its implications – and are honest about it all. They will be faced, if they have a shred of decency, with an inevitable crisis of faith. That is a very difficult position for most to be vocal about because I think they know that Islam in general is just a house of cards built just across from an open window. There really is nothing to it, so it makes such grand claims for itself. Doubt and disbelief in the miraculous infallibility of this house of cards, then, becomes paramount.

    The impressive part is that this also demonstrates the true power of faith (call it conviction, if you will.) People believe this entire system called Islam that has been built literally on nothing but words. It’s remarkable. And it is remarkable what can happen so long as people don’t lose faith.

    I’ll digress just a bit here in my rambling, but I’ll try to tie it all back in to my final point. Think about this. Muhammad never had a single miracle, but people still believe in him as a prophet of God. He never came up with a single original story, but people still believe in him as a prophet of God. He behaved essentially like any other desert chieftain in the 7th century, but his legacy lived on because people believed he was a prophet of God. He got entangled in multiple sex scandals, ones that would usually ruin the career of your average religious leader, but he was able to pull through because people believed he was a prophet of God.

    So, the thing that you are asking them to do by admitting that the Qur’an is not divine is essentially to lose faith in the one thing that makes the house of cards stand on its own. It’s essentially kufr from everyone’s perspective, the one thing that cannot be forgiven. And people are scared shitless to approach it because they know very well what it actually means.

    Though, I think if people did go there with you, they would find that Islam does not simply melt away once you admit you don’t actually believe that it is entirely and divinely true. They’d find the freedom to admire the beauty, comfort, and guidance that centuries of Islamic thought can give them without having to force themselves into ignorant or dishonest positions.

    They’d find that even Muhammad himself becomes a much more impressive character, a much more understandable character, a much more complex character, when you admit that he was nothing more than a remarkable, and remarkably flawed human being. Because what the unlettered prophet was able to give to the Arabs, and even to all of us here still talking about him, was nothing short of amazing.

    They’d find that Islam could take its place amongst all great religious traditions that humanity has developed,  not as God’s way of reaching down to us, but instead as our way of coming together and reaching up to God – whatever God may or may not be. 

    But it’s a radical shift and most people will not be comfortable with it.



    Awesome post - and I agree completely, most Muslims don't know and don't think about the 'uncomfortable' stuff. I guess my rage is at those who do but peddle such intellectually dishonest bullshit. (The above post was actually prompted by a 'progressive' Muslim Khutbah I read.)

    Yes, I'm proposing a radical shift and most people will not be comfortable with it. But I'm putting it out there nevertheless.

    In the long term I suspect the landscape will radically change and what I am proposing may well just happen organically - much like it has with most Christians - many who are in reality Agnostic Christians - i.e. retain a certain emotional and spiritual connection to the Bible and Christianity and church services - but in actual fact are Agnostic or even Atheist.


  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #6 - September 08, 2015, 02:47 PM

    Oh you tease...  Wink

    Okay, I'll click on the link then.



    haha... yeah sorry about that :p
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #7 - September 08, 2015, 02:54 PM

    I was actually going to include them, then figured they were implicit in the discussion, as we were discussing the decent, non-psychopaths.  Smiley


    Calling them psychopaths is unfair. My mother believes in DCT but is not a psychopath. She was just taught to think of morality and God in this manner. She was indoctrinated, nothing more. Her view is also in part due to the attachment of morality to God. It is a cognitive failure not a mental illness. Also keep in mind the dynamic in which acts from DCT are against those that are placed in the role of a villain using both factual and fictional information. The major issue is the perspective of DCT drives everything else. If God did X to Y people then obviously Y did something wrong. Look at the Noah narratives. Most people were wicked thus deserved death. Those that were not were innocent thus their death is only a path to a greater good. Nevermind the death part, the ends justifies the means.

    Hence "Kill them all, God will know his own" Murder of innocents is justified on the assumption that God will sort everything out. The act of murder is of little consequence to the greater end. 
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #8 - September 08, 2015, 03:05 PM

    You are right, particularly of the people who would never actually commit, or stand by and watch, atrocities taking place while still defending them. Psychopath may not be the right word for those who use scripture as an excuse to actually behead and rape, but I do believe it is more than just a case of indoctrination at play. Perhaps the simpler, non-scientific term “crazies” is better. And I of course was guilty of oversimplifying.
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #9 - September 08, 2015, 03:14 PM

    Name removed: I have kept myself silent when it comes to Islam; somethings in the holy book does not match my internal morality. I question and search for answers...some I find quite fulfilling, some not satisfying some don't make any sense..I honestly thought there was something wrong wt me but when I read what u wrote, its ok to be me....cause there are others who are like me and have the same views. I am really jeopardising my position by admitting my stand but it is a really good feeling to know I am not alone. I needed to know I wasn't alone. Tq and god bless u.
    23 mins · Unlike · 3

    Name removed: Thank you *********. The more of us who step out of the 'literal' closet, the easier it will be for others. I long for the day when that 'closet's' doorway becomes so wide the doors can no longer contain its prisoners.
    18 mins · Unlike · 3

    Hassan Radwan: Thank you ********** - believe me there are so many who feel the same way as we do - you are not alone smile emoticon
    Just now · Like

    Hassan Radwan: Well said ********
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #10 - September 08, 2015, 03:16 PM

    that was on a friends of malaysian civil liberties fb group
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #11 - September 08, 2015, 03:27 PM


    In the long term I suspect the landscape will radically change and what I am proposing may well just happen organically - much like it has with most Christians - many who are in reality Agnostic Christians - i.e. retain a certain emotional and spiritual connection to the Bible and Christianity and church services - but in actual fact are Agnostic or even Atheist.


    I suspect you are right. Though I think your voice will be important in giving people the confidence to think and speak for themselves. The first to yell the emperor has no clothes, so to speak. Afro
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #12 - September 08, 2015, 03:57 PM

     Afro
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #13 - September 09, 2015, 02:16 AM

    HM, that was beautiful.

    I'm wondering if any of you awesome people would be willing to write a book - with that kind of quality writing to put your foot out there.


    It needs to be said. Somebody needs to do it.


    Everything in this thread is simply beautiful. I agree with it 100%.  This is how Christianity was reformed - by having Agnostic Christians.

    Thank you everyone!
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #14 - September 09, 2015, 05:03 AM

    I reckon you would also be a great contributor Helaine, judging by the posts i've seen of yours so far..

     
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #15 - September 09, 2015, 09:08 AM

    Quote
    I reckon you would also be a great contributor Helaine, judging by the posts i've seen of yours so far..


     thnkyu

     001_wub
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #16 - September 09, 2015, 09:37 AM

    I've kept this page open all day waiting for time to read it properly.

    Brilliant stuff from all, especially HM.
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #17 - September 09, 2015, 09:51 AM

    The problem the majority of ordinary reasonable Muslims face in this day and age is that while privately their heart and mind may agree with many liberal views, they must first somehow squeeze and twist the texts of the Quran and Hadith into supporting them before publicly acknowledging they agree with them.

    When young Muslims compare what liberal and progressive Muslims say with what the literalists and hardliners say they are faced with the inescapable truth that the hardliners are being far more honest and true to the Qur'an and Hadith, while the liberals & progressives are at best highly selective and at worst downright dishonest when they claim Islam upholds thing like LBGT rights, freedom of religion, gender equality, and so on…


    Why couldn't one argue for the reinterpretation of the literal paradigm that mainstream Islam consists of?Surely that is a much more reasonable step for Muslims to take than the one you are arguing for?

    In that case these liberal/progressive movements in Islam wouldn't be selective or dishonest or stay as a small minority because it would be an Islamic practice to use our Human reason to interpret and apply scripture.

    As mentioned by HM in a similar discussion previously, the literal interpretation of Islam has dominated through history but there has been plenty of debate regarding theology and interpretation dating back to the early formation of Islam so why not revive and support the schools of thought that argue against the blind and brainless literalness we see today.
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #18 - September 09, 2015, 04:37 PM

    et tu brute laico?

    Why couldn't one argue for the reinterpretation of the literal paradigm that mainstream Islam consists of?Surely that is a much more reasonable step for Muslims to take than the one you are arguing for?

    In that case these liberal/progressive movements in Islam wouldn't be selective or dishonest or stay as a small minority because it would be an Islamic practice to use our Human reason to interpret and apply scripture.


    Laico, that's exactly what I am doing and it is exactly what the liberals/progressives are so far refusing to do.

    As long as they maintain that the Qur'an is infallible and divine, then their attempts at reform will be limited or dishonest, because God's word will always trump reason.

    In which case they have to resort to tenuous or dishonest apologetics to get round the obstacle.

    What I am proposing is the very complete paradigm shift you suggest above - but this can ONLY be done by putting reason over the text - and that can ONLY be done by recognising the human origin of the Qur'an.

    Once we recognise the fallibility of the Qur'an we can simply say "Yes the Quran does say XYZ... but it's wrong, we need to now apply our reason according to our present circumstances." no more need for embarrassing & dishonest apologetics.

    You know I have been trying to explain this so many times - I don't understand why people can't see what I'm saying?
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #19 - September 09, 2015, 04:38 PM

    Am I not being clear enough?
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #20 - September 09, 2015, 04:44 PM

    What with banging my head with liberals progressives - as well as traditionalists - and even some guys here - I'm feeling very *frustrated* and think.... ahhhh what the fuck - why should I bother  grin12
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #21 - September 09, 2015, 04:48 PM

    Hassan: would you put up with a little bit of me now or are you currently too frustrated for that nonsense?
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #22 - September 09, 2015, 04:49 PM

    Quote
    et tu brute laico?
    ................. "Yes the Quran does say ...YZ... ......

    ...............and even some guys here ................ ahhhh what the fuck - why should I bother  grin12



    sure sure Hassan Radan ......  what is new?    BLAME ME... you are doing that for the past 8 years..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #23 - September 09, 2015, 05:22 PM

    Hassan: would you put up with a little bit of me now or are you currently too frustrated for that nonsense?


    I'm always happy to read you Wahhabist (I checked the spelling  grin12)
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #24 - September 09, 2015, 05:46 PM

    Will take a look later though - going offline now Smiley
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #25 - September 09, 2015, 05:47 PM

    et tu brute laico?

    Laico, that's exactly what I am doing and it is exactly what the liberals/progressives are so far refusing to do.

    As long as they maintain that the Qur'an is infallible and divine, then their attempts at reform will be limited or dishonest, because God's word will always trump reason.

    In which case they have to resort to tenuous or dishonest apologetics to get round the obstacle.

    What I am proposing is the very complete paradigm shift you suggest above - but this can ONLY be done by putting reason over the text - and that can ONLY be done by recognising the human origin of the Qur'an.

    Once we recognise the fallibility of the Qur'an we can simply say "Yes the Quran does say XYZ... but it's wrong, we need to now apply our reason according to our present circumstances." no more need for embarrassing & dishonest apologetics.

    You know I have been trying to explain this so many times - I don't understand why people can't see what I'm saying?


    Sorry Hass, maybe it's me who is not being clear enough.

    You are arguing for such a major shift that Muslims need to see the Quran as an imperfect product of the human mind (inspired by God) so they can discard the nasty bits, i get that.

    Why couldn't one argue that the Quran IS the perfect and direct word of God however God is talking to and using language that warring ancient superstitious tribes of the Arabian desert will understand, that is not the world we live in today. Therefore, other than instructions on religious duties such as praying and fasting etc the rest does not need to be applied because there are no eternal rules set in stone, we can use our minds to decide everything else.

    This is the same interpretation endorsed by maajid nawaz and co. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBSOw3anhHs

    That way Muslims can accept traditional beliefs such as the Quran being the perfect word of God and Mohammed being a prophet yet also accept democracy and liberal values without it being dishonest or selective.

    Don't get too stressed out over this bud, it's OK if you want to forget this discussion.

  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #26 - September 09, 2015, 05:54 PM

     
    ........

    Why couldn't one argue that the Quran IS the perfect and direct word of God however God is talking to and using language that warring ancient superstitious tribes of the Arabian desert will understand, that is not the world we live in today. Therefore, other than instructions on religious duties such as praying and fasting etc the rest does not need tov be applied because there is no eternal literal interpretation, we can use our minds to decide everything else. .

    Hmm Very selective god..  doesn't sound like all powerful all time god .. that is god for Arab tribes of 7th century?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #27 - September 09, 2015, 06:05 PM

    Hmm Very selective god..  doesn't sound like all powerful all time god .. that is god for Arab tribes of 7th century?


    Yes, there is no perfect or 'true' interpretation of Islam that you can't poke holes in. Hassan has put forward a narrative forward for Muslims to keep their religion and identity yet do not have to accept barbaric laws or grotesque beliefs regarding the afterlife. So have i, yet surely this one is a smaller step for Muslims to take than to accept Mohammed as just being an ordinary bloke and the Quran being his words
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #28 - September 09, 2015, 06:21 PM


    Why couldn't one argue that the Quran IS the perfect and direct word of God however God is talking to and using language that warring ancient superstitious tribes of the Arabian desert will understand, that is not the world we live in today. Therefore, other than instructions on religious duties such as praying and fasting etc the rest does not need to be applied because there are no eternal rules set in stone, we can use our minds to decide everything else.


    That way Muslims can accept traditional beliefs such as the Quran being the perfect word of God and Mohammed being a prophet yet also accept democracy and liberal values without it being dishonest or selective.



    Ah but Hassan doesn't believe the quran to be the word of god, only divinely inspired.  It would be a bit manipulative of him to pretend otherwise i think so..    : )
  • Can Islam be Reformed?
     Reply #29 - September 09, 2015, 06:26 PM

    I’m going to be blunt here. What’s being proposed here is a bloodless coup, and — to use a historically analogous example — wanting something nothing short of the Glorious Revolution (how very English of you, Hassan!). That is, taking away by means of discourse & doubt the literality of Allah’s divinity, which would hopefully culminate in pacifying Muslims. The process of pacifying Islam, if you ask me, is extremely unlikely to be bloodless. Thus, peaceful organic transition of Muslims into a spiritualist, self-focused, inoffensive, apolitical, C of E type of Islam remains largely wishful.

    It is for this reason that I think ISIS is not very bad news; ISIS is in actuality good. I have come to think ISIS to be a necessary evil, a movement that earnestly tries to realise the hitherto suspended, dusty ideals of Islamic teachings. ISIS quotes all the relevant verses from the Quran — beautifully recited and translated into English — before it goes ahead with carrying out floggings, beheadings and grisly amputations. ISIS rubs the practical realities of theoretical Islam in the face of any honest Muslim, in ways other terrorist movements, including Takfir wal-Hijra and Al-Qaida, don’t. This is because all modern Islamist movements are focused on defensive Jihad to the near exclusion of all else; others are one-trick ponies and are very busy with Jihad to even try to implement anything Islamic beyond its scope — whatever you have to say for Taliban, they were not universalising expansionists in the ISIS sense. You pick your ISIS deed and they would furnish you with the Quranic verse which supports it, or a Salafi interpretation of the verse which supports it, or an authenticated hadith explaining its asbab alnuzol and lending it theoretical compliance, or a validating action or saying of any of The Rashidun Caliphs or those who followed them and those who followed those who followed RCs.

    When Muhammed said in authenticated hadith — in Alhakim’s Mustadrak i.e. of the same rigour of Bukhari and Muslim —that Allah will send from his ummah every 100 years a mujedid (reformer), he didn’t exactly mean an innovator with an imaginative reconstruction project. Rather, he meant someone who takes the ummah back in time and tradition to its point of origin in him. The hadith is also in Abu Dawood and it’s not for frivolity that he narrated it in the chapter of Great Wars (Bab Almalahim). ISIS to me therefore, is Islamic spiritual and ideological revolution (and thus, reformation) in which people are polarised into Muslim or not; ruling is established through bayyah according to Al Kitab and Sunnah, and people are ruled by Al Kitab and Sunnah and is a geography in which people elect to live on Al Kitab and Sunnah.

    The whole thing is built on the infallibility of Allah and His book. Take that away, and nothing’s worth praying or fighting for. This is because a lot of the crucial Islamic stuff falls, in terms of its legislative wisdom, within the scope of trustful submission (علل تعبدية) where the worshiper trusts the validity and importance of an Islamic matter without any recourse to reason; an example would be why a camel’s meat breaks a Muslim’s wodu and why prayer where camels sleep is invalid. There’s a sort of interdependent survivalism to which earliest of thinkers and religious practitioners within the circumference of Allahu Akbar — Mutazilite et al — referred to, when they humbly acknowledged that a lot of the deen is erected on the absolute ‘truthfulness of the teller’ rather than on reason (and the examples they gave were the impossibility of reaching to the certainty of Allah having risen on his throne, or that his throne was on water, or that the throne is carried by eight angels whom he empowers to carry i.e. he carries himself).

    You, Hassan, bring fallibility into this mix and none of it stands the gentlest logical scrutiny. I think it would very dishonest of me, of you, of happymurtad and others to say that we ourselves would still have remained Muslim if Allah's infallibility and that of his book were stripped away. Why should other people sell themselves short by remaining Muslims after having discovered through a lot of probable pain the baseless quintessence of Allah? Why are there so many Ex-Muslims here when they could have remained culturally Muslim if cultural affinities and shared ancestral and social history were sufficient to make anyone Muslim? I love you dearly, Hassan, and I'm completely supportive of you subjectively calling yourself an agnostic Muslim. But beyond the subjectivity of such an imaginative label, you are not Muslim in any traditional, scriptural sense. And well you know it. You do not look forward to meeting Allah and are practically ensconced in hayat al-dunya (as mentioned in surat Yunus, verse 8 ) so that if Allah were real, only Jahanum awaits you after death, like the rest of us murtadoon.

    A lot of scholars knew this infallibility weakness, knew about this chink in the Islamic armor which is forged through generous submission and anyone’s greatest willing to believe in Allah's and his book's perfection against their own reason. These scholars, thus, have written books precisely on Islam’s legislative wisdom to make up for the possible human thing of us wanting to subject this type of truth to a minimum of common sense i.e. reason. Thus, the jurist Ibn Qayyim al- Jawziyyah wrote two books, I'laam ul Muwaqqi'een (اعلام الموقعين) and Shifa al-Alil (Healing of the Sick) to expand on the possible humanly comprehendible reasons behind Islamic rules in case raw imaan stopped doing the trick. So did his peer, Al-Iz bin Abdussalam when he wrote a very detailed book — Qawa'id al-ahkam fi masalih al-anam. Lots of what Zaghloul al Najjar and his fellow Muslim scholars do vis-a-vis I'jaz is also to acknowledge the wild might of human reason even when it's been extremely demosticated; when they seek to islamise science and scientific discoveries by claiming the miraculous Qurran has foretold them here (http://quran-m.com/).

    It would more likely to fall to ISIS rather than to pacifist, lovable hippies to make Muslims wake up and face the implementation realities of their peaceful Deen. And look around you, why is the West so insistent on rejecting violence as a way of settling arguments and differences? Was the French and American Revolutions peaceful? No. I believe the West rejects violence because it tried it for long enough and has got tired of violence. Muslims and the Islamic World haven't. Muslims cannot skip the historical cycle of lasting peace being a product of long wars and misery. We here on CEMB are a pointed example that the totality of Islam left us no choice but to totally reject it, rather than opting for creating a 'reformed' Islam that is fit for us to consume; no, if we are going to create it ourselves in principles, then that ability is sufficient for us becoming murtadoon with knobs on. I'm sorry to say this but it is my deeply held belief that ISIS, like 9/11, is more likely to drive a lot of honest Muslims away from Islam (after having exhausted all the efforts to re-imagine the Quran without its infallibility claims) than through aeons of erudite, peaceful reformation.
  • 12 3 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »