A Quranist Looking for Some Insight

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- jf00112
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A Quranist Looking for Some Insight
OP - September 18, 2015, 02:25 AM

Hello All,

I'm new to this forum and just want to leave some brief introduction here.

I grew up in a sunni muslim family and community. From my teenage years (now I'm on my thirties) I've been having questions on the truth of Islam from what I've been taught, where a lot of the teachings and doctrines clashed with my heart dan humanity.

Then after a whole lot and long period of soul searching, at one point I decided to stop believing and stop using hadith (shahih bukhari, muslim et al) altogether once I learnt about it's history and the so-called "science" of hadith, where there are clear signs of immorality and that the nature of the hadits itself are very prone to manipulation and political abuse.

Now I'm left with Qur'an alone, and at this point I still believe the Qur'an to be the scripture of God (Kitabullah), means I believe on its divine origin.

At this forum I want to know from those who are ex-muslims, which part of the Qur'an that you guys find repulsive, absurd or inhumane that contradicts its claim to be of divine origin.

Or if you've come to believe that there is no Divine entity, then probably can just point out which part of Quran that are unacceptable from standard social norm/morality point of view.

I don't expect to get all the insight from just one thread, somy plan is just to hang out and probably involve myself in some discussion if it's related to the above matter.

That's all for introduction, I think. Turns out it's not that brief after all...

Salamun 'alaikum
- Quod Sum Eris
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Reply #1 - September 18, 2015, 03:27 AM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on February 09, 2014, 10:59 PM
So I thought I'd expand on the above, because I honestly meant these to be arguments.

1) The quran:

The quran claims itself to be the perfect uncorrupted word of god. That's it's biggest flaw. It invites challenge in a way other holy texts don't, and is really to arrogant for it's own good. The level is enough that it doesn't have the flexibility needed to stand the test of time. The fact that it doesn't have this flexibility, and that it needs it in the first place, is an argument against it in my opinion.

2) Sanity

There's only so much a human being can reasonably be held accountable for when it comes to spiritual matters. There's a verse in the quran which says allah has not given us two hearts. I personally view this as metaphorical, not literal. We view and believe certain things a certain way. I cannot at the same time believe in the quran while seeing flaws in it.

3) Reality

The quran, like all the other holy texts, claims to be the word of god. The way to verify this is testing it, see if it stacks up. Quite frankly it doesn't. Dust devils and jinns, spontaneous human creation, great flood, there's a lot to choose from, but I'll pick a few.

The story of the arc and the great flood. This would have happened around 4000 years ago. It's quite simply impossible for the number of races, ethnicities and the huge amount of genetic traits to come from one incestuous family in just 4000 years. It cannot happen. Something else that puts a hole in the story is the amount of people who were thriving at this point. God flooded the entire world. Except for the Chinese who were developing at an incredible rate and remained unaffected from a global flood that wiped out every human on the planet. The Japanese were also unaffected. And the Africans. And the Europeans. And the Native Americans. And the Aztecs. And the South Americans. And most of the middle east. The flood never happened. It's not real.

The quran teaches that humans were created from clay in a specific creation. If you're to count on the hadiths, then it's just even more ludicrous. We know the first human was not a 90 foot tall clay giant. Even if you don't take the hadiths into account, it also doesn't account for evolution, the proof of which is overwhelming. Nor does it account for the number of people today who have Neanderthal DNA in them from before the Neanderthals went extinct. Everything I know to be proven fact contradicts the claims of the quran. The only logical conclusion I can come to is that it was a story told by ancient societies because they didn't have any answers. Adam never existed. It's not real.

The sun orbits the Earth...yeah, we've known that's bullshit for a few centuries now.

It says in the quran that in the embryo/foetus the bones are the first thing to form. "So we made the clot a morsel, so we made the morsel bones, so we clothed the bones (with) meat". This is wrong. The skeleton is actually among the last to be formed. You'd think the all knowing creator of everything would realise this. It's wrong.

The stars are missiles to be hurled at jinns. Or they hunt demons. I haven't read the quran in a while so I can't remember the exact quote, but you can look it up to see exactly what it says. This is also wrong. The stars are just stars, they do the exact same thing as the star we orbit, the sun.

Women are defective in intelligence. Coming from a culture where gender mixing is the norm and close relationships aren't looked down upon, I can tell you this isn't true from my own experience. And then there's current trends in school grades, sciences, IQ and employment performance, the fact there are women in MENSA (if you don't know MENSA is like a super genius club, only 2% of the human population globally have a high enough IQ to qualify for membership). Now we live in an age men and women have equal rights, women are on the same level and even starting to out preform men. So I'm going to say this is wrong.

4) Nonsense

Do you believe that allah puts a veil over our hearts? If the answer to this is yes, then my reply to that would be that I'm blameless. If the reason I don't see the truth of islam is because allah put a veil over my heart, then it stands to reason I'll be punished (by being sent to hell) for a crime I didn't commit. My reason for saying I'm being punished for a crime I didn't commit is that allah delibertly put a veil over my heart so I would never know him, therefore the fault is allah's, not mine.

Do you believe nothing happens accept by allah's will? If so then it's the same as above. If nothing happens except by allah's will, then allah made sure I wouldn't believe in him. So again the fault lies with allah, not myself.

Do you believe islam teaches there's no compulsion in religion? If so does that mean if you don't accept islam as true, then you go to hell? If so, this means that allah has told us something to be taken as truth, and he punishes us for taking him at his word instead of assuming he was lying.

Do you believe in the virgin birth? If so, can you understand why I might think it's more likely that a teenage girl told a lie rather than a virgin magically conceiving a child, carrying it to term, birthing it, and the child while still an infant speaking?

Can you also understand why it may be confusing that said infant would only speak once to a few people and refuse to speak again to others, which would cause all doubt in the divinity of allah to be wiped away?

Here's a situation. Let's say there's something in your house you don't like. It offends you. Let's also say you have the power of a god. Would you A) throw away the thing you didn't like or give it to charity, or B) bring it to life, give it intelligence so it can understand what's happening, enable it to feel pain, and torture it forever and ever and ever? Which is more merciful?

5) Common sense

It becomes a common sense issue. Let's say that I'm wrong. Let's say all the things I'm of the opinion are true are wrong. It doesn't change the fact that I find the quran unbelievable. I can't have more knowledge than what's available to me. Let's take evolution. I find it believable. I'm convinced of it. The quran goes against it. I have no reason whatsoever, nothing at all compelling me to believe the quranic story over proven scientific fact.

Or another, let's take the big bang. I'm convinced by what knowledge I have that before the universe, and after the universe, there was no Earth. This planet did not exist. It took a very long time for our star to be born and for our planet to form. This seems plausible to me. From what I know of physics and cosmology, I can accept this. I have no reason whatsoever to believe that the Earth existed from the start and was ripped apart from heaven.

Or another. The quran and hadiths suggest a flat Earth. At one point it's spread out like a carpet, at another the Earth is like an ostrich egg (had to pick the bird that buries it's egg and flattens the soil), allah will roll up the Earth like parchment/paper, and on and on it goes. Everything I'm aware of tells me this is wrong. It becomes less and less believable to me. So with all this in mind, common sense tells me that the only truth that lies hidden in the quran is simply the truths of the cultural norms and mindset of that society and time. Historically and psychologically it's interesting, but that's all it is. No more, no less.

And I have to admit, these aren't even my strongest arguments. I haven't thought about this endlessly, I haven't delved into the theology to throw things at you. The above is just what came to mind as I sit here filling the time on a lazy Sunday evening.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #2 - September 18, 2015, 03:44 AM

Hi Quod Sum Eris

Thank you for your input.

I'd like to look deeper on your argument above.
Can you point which verses that are referred for each point?

The reason I asked is because I shared and agreed with a lot of your views above in the past.

Only when I ditch the hadith and tafseer, and trying to read the Qur'an for what it is word for word then I realized that a lot of the points above are actually an interpretation, where the Quran itself does not specifically say that.
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Reply #3 - September 18, 2015, 03:49 AM

Apart from where I specifically mentioned the hadiths, that's all quran. I think. Sorry, just woke up. Welcome by the way.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #4 - September 18, 2015, 04:08 AM

First off I'd like to say welcome.

Second, I'd like to ask what are the pieces of the Quran you find most compelling, which ones do you find hold truth? Like, what is your reason for still accepting that the Quran is the word of God, what makes it ring true to you?

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
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Reply #5 - September 18, 2015, 04:13 AM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 18, 2015, 03:49 AM
Apart from where I specifically mentioned the hadiths, that's all quran. I think. Sorry, just woke up. Welcome by the way.

Thanks for the welcome.
Which country do you stay, if you don't mind me asking?

If you agree let's dwell on each point one by one.

--
1) The quran:

The quran claims itself to be the perfect uncorrupted word of god. That's it's biggest flaw. It invites challenge in a way other holy texts don't, and is really to arrogant for it's own good. The level is enough that it doesn't have the flexibility needed to stand the test of time. The fact that it doesn't have this flexibility, and that it needs it in the first place, is an argument against it in my opinion.
--

"Quran claim to be perfect word of God"
I find no verse in the Quran saying this. Can you point which verse in Quran claims this?

If somebody give me a copy of Quran with some changes, addition or reduction here and there, I might not noticed it, at least not right away.
Does this count as corrupted?

Or do you mean that Quran was edited somehow and the edited version was then propagated and accepted as original?
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Reply #6 - September 18, 2015, 04:19 AM

Quote from: gal_from_usa on September 18, 2015, 04:08 AM
First off I'd like to say welcome.

Second, I'd like to ask what are the pieces of the Quran you find most compelling, which ones do you find hold truth? Like, what is your reason for still accepting that the Quran is the word of God, what makes it ring true to you?

Thanks for the welcome.
I noticed parrot welcome is the norm here

These are some of the verses that formed my principle in the universality of monotheism and that their belief systems don't have to be uniform so long that they:
- believe in one God
- believe in the Last Day
- do good deeds

There are many messengers that preach the 3 things above, some known and some not known. Thus in my opinion as long as people do the 3 things above, whatever they call themselves, their belief come from the same source as Quran and as per Quran says we should let them decide for themselves based on what scripture is being given to them, not force them to follow the Quran.

48:13 Anyone who does not believe in God and His messenger, then We have prepared for the rejecters a Fire.

4:164 And messengers of whom We have told to you from before, and messengers We have not told to you; and God spoke to Moses directly.

10:47 And for every nation is a messenger; so when their messenger comes, the matter is decreed between them with justice, and they are not wronged.

5:69 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Sabians, and the Nazarenes, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.

2:62 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.

4:150 Those who rejected God and His messengers, and they want to make a separation between God and His messengers, and they say:
"We believe in some and reject some" And they desire to take a path in-between.

4:151 These are the true rejecters; and We have prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.

4:152 And those who believe in God and His messengers and do not make a distinction between any of them, We will give them their recompense. And God is Forgiving, Merciful.
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Reply #7 - September 18, 2015, 04:43 AM

Quote from: jf00112 on September 18, 2015, 04:19 AM
Thanks for the welcome.
I noticed parrot welcome is the norm here

These are some of the verses that formed my principle in the universality of monotheism and that their belief systems don't have to be uniform so long that they:
- believe in one God
- believe in the Last Day
- do good deeds

There are many messengers that preach the 3 things above, some known and some not known. Thus in my opinion as long as people do the 3 things above, whatever they call themselves, their belief come from the same source as Quran and as per Quran says we should let them decide for themselves based on what scripture is being given to them, not force them to follow the Quran.

48:13 Anyone who does not believe in God and His messenger, then We have prepared for the rejecters a Fire.

It's interesting to me that the reason you listed is the universality of the message of Islam and how one doesn't need to believe the exact same thing as you do to achieve a reward in the afterlife, but yet the first verse you quoted promises the fires of hell to anyone who does not believe. I tend to see those two things as mutually exclusive, could you expand on what it is you believe, if you don't think those two things contradict each other?

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
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Reply #8 - September 18, 2015, 05:23 AM

Quote from: gal_from_usa on September 18, 2015, 04:43 AM
It's interesting to me that the reason you listed is the universality of the message of Islam and how one doesn't need to believe the exact same thing as you do to achieve a reward in the afterlife, but yet the first verse you quoted promises the fires of hell to anyone who does not believe. I tend to see those two things as mutually exclusive, could you expand on what it is you believe, if you don't think those two things contradict each other?

In my opinion there is no contradiction because the universality is between those who believes, whatever they call themselves.

I'm not talking about universality between people who believe and people who does not believe (man(l)lam yu'min).

Also, the verse 48:13 does not bother me because of the following:
1. For me as a believer, it only serves as a warning, not asking me to actively do anything about people who does not believe.
2. If believer is recognized based on the 3 criteria above, then there is no way to differentiate who are believer and who are non-believer.
Nobody knows whether you believe in one God or not.
Nobody knows whether you believe in Last Day or not.
The only indication that is observable is if somebody not doing good deeds or doing bad deeds. Even then we could not tell right away, that's why we have a court/justice system and punishment for the guilty is based on the bad deeds, not based on the belief.
3. The punishment mentioned on the verse is between God and the disbeliever. Not my business.
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Reply #9 - September 18, 2015, 06:22 AM

Quote from: jf00112 on September 18, 2015, 05:23 AM
In my opinion there is no contradiction because the universality is between those who believes, whatever they call themselves.

I'm not talking about universality between people who believe and people who does not believe (man(l)lam yu'min).

Also, the verse 48:13 does not bother me because of the following:
1. For me as a believer, it only serves as a warning, not asking me to actively do anything about people who does not believe.
2. If believer is recognized based on the 3 criteria above, then there is no way to differentiate who are believer and who are non-believer.
Nobody knows whether you believe in one God or not.
Nobody knows whether you believe in Last Day or not.
The only indication that is observable is if somebody not doing good deeds or doing bad deeds. Even then we could not tell right away, that's why we have a court/justice system and punishment for the guilty is based on the bad deeds, not based on the belief.
3. The punishment mentioned on the verse is between God and the disbeliever. Not my business.

See, to me this sounds like an extension of an older tradition of "My god is better than your god, and to prove it, I'll beat the shit out of you with the help of my god." When that became no longer an option due to the rise of empires instead of city-states, it was no longer possible to beat the shit out of the neighboring village, so people had to get creative, and the way it seems most people decided to do that was "My god is better than your god, and I might not be able to beat the shit out of you, but you better believe he will! With FIRE! FOREVER! And TORMENT!" You can see this evolution pretty clearly in the Bible if you put the different books in chronological order, not from when they claim to have been written, but from when the historians say they were written (as best we can tell).

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
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Reply #10 - September 18, 2015, 07:24 AM

That's one way to look at it and I'll take note of your view.

However in other part of the Quran it is mentioned not to mock others and their deities.

6:108 And do not insult those who call on other than God, lest they insult God out of ignorance. And We have similarly adorned for every nation their works; then to their Lord is their return and He will inform them of what they had done.

Another version of translation:
6:108 And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah , lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do.

So in my opinion those verses about torment and punishment are to be taken as warning to ourselves, and not a reason to interfere or undermine on what others believe.
This understanding is inline with other vers:

109:6 For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."

Other translation version:
109:6 “To you is your system, and to me is mine.”

Anybody interprete the verses about torment or punishment as sign of superiority over others clearly has not read Quran in its entirety.

Quote from: gal_from_usa on September 18, 2015, 06:22 AM
See, to me this sounds like an extension of an older tradition of "My god is better than your god, and to prove it, I'll beat the shit out of you with the help of my god." When that became no longer an option due to the rise of empires instead of city-states, it was no longer possible to beat the shit out of the neighboring village, so people had to get creative, and the way it seems most people decided to do that was "My god is better than your god, and I might not be able to beat the shit out of you, but you better believe he will! With FIRE! FOREVER! And TORMENT!" You can see this evolution pretty clearly in the Bible if you put the different books in chronological order, not from when they claim to have been written, but from when the historians say they were written (as best we can tell).
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Reply #11 - September 18, 2015, 07:28 AM

I have done a lot of research on the topic of hell. Actually put together this video a few weeks ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOxDssdJ_3g

It's got a lot more information on how the views of hell evolved over the centuries, where they came from, and why I'm not afraid to go to Jahannam before or after I die.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
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Reply #12 - September 18, 2015, 07:36 AM

Quote from: jf00112 on September 18, 2015, 04:19 AM
Thanks for the welcome.
I noticed parrot welcome is the norm here

Yes. The almighty has revealed a chapter about it.

Suratul-Parrot:

1.The Parrot
2. What Parrot?
3. And what shall make ye know what constitutes a parrot?
4. Surely, thy lord hath blessed it and filled it with merit
5. And hath made it taste like chicken when cooked, thus do we compare it.
6. And the rabbit he hath blessed, and made it love the carrot.
7. So when thou seeth a furry rabbit, try not to scare it
8. And when new members join the forum, offer them rabbit and parrot
9. Dancing side by side together, thus shall ye share it
10. Surely, those who deny parrots and rabbits, we have prepared for them a dunce cap and we shall force them to wear it
11. For only a few minutes, and just for laughs really, thus does your lord declare it

Welcome to the forum. I've had a quick skim of your posts. I'll perhaps respond once I've had some sleep.
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Reply #13 - September 18, 2015, 07:41 AM

Sleep?! SLEEP? Sleep is for the weak!

_{(Like me on Wednesday when I slept for 17 hours.)}

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
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Reply #14 - September 18, 2015, 07:45 AM

At 3:43 am, weak is actually a pretty good description. al-forum khairun min an-nawm, and all.
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Reply #15 - September 18, 2015, 07:47 AM

I slept all Wednesday (I seriously slept from like 2 am to 7:30 pm--stressed about the surgery). So now I'm not tired. Don't want to go to sleep.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
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Reply #16 - September 18, 2015, 07:50 AM

I wish you well, though we both know you'll come out as fine and awesome as ever. If you can, try to enjoy as much of this sleep that I'm about to get vicariously.
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Reply #17 - September 18, 2015, 08:33 AM

Quote from: jf00112 on September 18, 2015, 02:25 AM
Hello All,

I'm new to this forum and just want to leave some brief introduction here.

I grew up in a sunni muslim family and community. From my teenage years (now I'm on my thirties) I've been having questions on the truth of Islam from what I've been taught, where a lot of the teachings and doctrines clashed with my heart dan humanity.

Then after a whole lot and long period of soul searching, at one point I decided to stop believing and stop using hadith (shahih bukhari, muslim et al) altogether once I learnt about it's history and the so-called "science" of hadith, where there are clear signs of immorality and that the nature of the hadits itself are very prone to manipulation and political abuse.

Now I'm left with Qur'an alone, and at this point I still believe the Qur'an to be the scripture of God (Kitabullah), means I believe on its divine origin.

At this forum I want to know from those who are ex-muslims, which part of the Qur'an that you guys find repulsive, absurd or inhumane that contradicts its claim to be of divine origin.

Or if you've come to believe that there is no Divine entity, then probably can just point out which part of Quran that are unacceptable from standard social norm/morality point of view.

I don't expect to get all the insight from just one thread, somy plan is just to hang out and probably involve myself in some discussion if it's related to the above matter.

That's all for introduction, I think. Turns out it's not that brief after all...

Salamun 'alaikum

Welcome.

You are the first Quranist whom I can speak with and I would have 2 questions if I may. Feel free not to answer...

1. It's the immorality of Muhammad as it is described in hadiths or the fact that hadiths are written 200 years after Muhammad and the way they were collected that made you not to believe?

2. If you reject Hadiths then how will you describe the prophet, what do you know about him and what are your sources? Because if you believe in the divinity of Quran, you have to trust Muhammad and if you trust a man you have to know a lot about him. Because otherwise, how do we know it wasn't a liar?
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Reply #18 - September 18, 2015, 08:58 AM

The Quran was compiled after the death of Muhammad. There were many versions, and Uthman suppressed all versions except his when he was caliph. This is part of orthodox Islamic teaching and is why the Quran today is called the Uthmani Quran.

So here's the thing: even if we're to assume for the sake of this argument that Muhammad was indeed a prophet, and indeed God revealed his word to him, we're supposed to believe that people came together decades later and remembered every single letter and symbol in the Quran and got it entirely right. Except that even the story proves they couldn't have done that, because there were many versions of the Quran. So we're also supposed to believe Uthman magically knew which one is the accurate Quran (assuming that one among those that existed is entirely and perfectly accurate).

Think about how many people were responsible for memorizing the Quran. Now imagine the likelihood of every single one of them being 100 percent accurate in memorizing every single detail. Sure, people would have corroborated, but the process of compiling the Quran was an entirely human process, and as we know, human memory is pretty faulty. And the thing is, Muslims just believe that this process couldn't have gone wrong because it was divinely inspired and God didn't want it to go wrong. That's the only way they're capable of believing the Quran literally the word of God against all odds. Yet somehow they also believe that this process of compilation is what tainted the Bible.
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Reply #19 - September 18, 2015, 09:02 AM

Quote from: jf00112 on September 18, 2015, 04:13 AM

Thanks for the welcome.
Which country do you stay, if you don't mind me asking?

If you agree let's dwell on each point one by one.

--
1) The quran:

The quran claims itself to be the perfect uncorrupted word of god. That's it's biggest flaw. It invites challenge in a way other holy texts don't, and is really to arrogant for it's own good. The level is enough that it doesn't have the flexibility needed to stand the test of time. The fact that it doesn't have this flexibility, and that it needs it in the first place, is an argument against it in my opinion.
--

"Quran claim to be perfect word of God"
I find no verse in the Quran saying this. Can you point which verse in Quran claims this?

If somebody give me a copy of Quran with some changes, addition or reduction here and there, I might not noticed it, at least not right away.
Does this count as corrupted?

Or do you mean that Quran was edited somehow and the edited version was then propagated and accepted as original?

I'm from England. Yourself?

4:82. "If it had been from other than allah".

Quote
Sahih International: Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.

Pickthall: Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity.

Yusuf Ali: Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

Shakir: Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy.

Muhammad Sarwar: Will they not ponder on the Quran? Had it not come from someone other than God, they would have certainly found therein many contradictions.

Mohsin Khan: Do they not then consider the Quran carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much contradictions.

Arberry: What, do they not ponder the Koran? If it had been from other than God surely they would have found in it much inconsistency.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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A Quranist Looking for Some Insight
Reply #20 - September 18, 2015, 06:05 PM

Hi jf00112, welcome to the forum, and have a rabbit!

I really like your name too!

Quote from: jf00112 on September 18, 2015, 02:25 AM
At this forum I want to know from those who are ex-muslims, which part of the Qur'an that you guys find repulsive, absurd or inhumane that contradicts its claim to be of divine origin.

Or if you've come to believe that there is no Divine entity, then probably can just point out which part of Quran that are unacceptable from standard social norm/morality point of view.

Ooh, I've got this one. Basically for me what thematically contradicted its claim to be a divine guidance for all time is it's anachronisms with global trends. Two examples I've got off the top of my head:

1) Anything to do with women. Verse giving permission to beat one's wife, the unequal dividing of inheritance among male and female children, and stating that men have a "degree above" women. All bullshit. You've been out there, you know this isn't the case and blatantly unfair.

2) The verse which tells Muslims not to take non-Muslims as friends. In a world that is growing more open and more connected, this encourages Muslims to segregate, and close themselves off, to the great detriment of all. I would say this mentality has almost as much to do with the peculiarly violent nature of fundamentalist Islam as any violent verse. Dehumanizing is the first step to truly barbaric actions, in my opinion.

Finally, and as an aside, there's the reality that rationally speaking, there's no reason to accept the claim of divine origin of the Quran to Muhammad. There's no evidence to point to it being the case. I've yet to hear any for any such supernatural claims, and thus I cannot accept any of them, Islamic or otherwise.

Quote from: jf00112 on September 18, 2015, 02:25 AM
I don't expect to get all the insight from just one thread, somy plan is just to hang out and probably involve myself in some discussion if it's related to the above matter.

Please feel free to. There truly are some great folks here, with incredible insight! I really look forward to hearing from you and gaining insight from you as well!

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
how fuck works without shit??

Let's Play Chess!

harakaat, friend, RIP
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Reply #21 - September 18, 2015, 06:08 PM

Oh, and I'm sorry if I don't reply immediately jf00112, I've got an exam Monday I'm supposed to be studying for, but I hope you'll stick around till then!

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
how fuck works without shit??

Let's Play Chess!

harakaat, friend, RIP
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Reply #22 - September 18, 2015, 06:23 PM

Quote from: jf00112 on September 18, 2015, 02:25 AM
I still believe the Qur'an to be the scripture of God (Kitabullah), means I believe on its divine origin.

But why?
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Reply #23 - September 19, 2015, 06:58 AM

Why hello there!

I like Quranists quite a lot, and their liberal interpretation of Quran.

Welcome welcome~!

What do you think about Orthodox Islam itself? Where do you live and are you worried that you might be forced to follow Orthodoxy by your average muslims?
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Reply #24 - September 20, 2015, 02:16 AM

Welcome!
The system is corrupt, even with just the Quran.
The mahram/wali thing does not work, women become dependent on the decency of their menfolk. If a god gave mankind free will, why would women be subjected to the will of men? There is no mercy in that, and no logic.
Also, how could the god of the Quran be considered merciful, when he is using hell as punishment for people, whose destinies are pre-ordained, with seals on their hearts placed there by the same god? What kind of mindfuck is that? Surely an omnipotent being could do better. Isn't he supposed to be all powerful?
And where is this god now? Just having a nap? Not interested in being merciful for sure, testing people with sickness and awful circumstances and watching them do horrid things to each other? Like lab rats? Is he taking notes? What a sicko. If he were a human pet owner and we the pets, he would be charged with neglect. I want nothing to do with such a being, because refusing to step in and help a child is evidence of cruelty.
A god worth worshipping could have set it up better than this. So either this god has not the positive attributes ascribed to him, or is not and never was all powerful or all knowing. The proof is in the world around us.
Sorry, I don't give much reference to ayah anymore. I dissected Quran long ago, I know what it says, and it doesn't deserve careful citation from me. I am sure you know where all this is in there, being Quranist.

Don't let Hitler have the street.
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