Ayyan & Malala

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- Diogenes
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Ayyan & Malala
OP - December 05, 2015, 05:49 PM

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2015/11/28/malala-versus-ayaan-hirsi-ali-why-is-one-beloved-and-the-other-reviled/
- Diogenes
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Reply #1 - December 05, 2015, 05:53 PM

Not saying I agree with this but I would be curious to know your thoughts on the matter
- Bolton34
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Reply #2 - December 05, 2015, 07:17 PM

It's interesting, though it's worth pointing out that Malala also receives hatred, even if from Pakistanis who claim she's an agent of the evil West.

Ayaan is also painted as a traitor to her own by Muslims, from what I've seen. There is also the issue that she is said to have been kicked out of the Netherlands because she lied about her backstory (can anyone please clarify this?)

I watched Submission part 1 and... I don't understand what the fuss was about? How can it disgust anyone as a Muslim, when it's pointing out how religious patriarchy is used to undermine and oppress women. Is that why it's hated so much that the director got killed, that it's not painting Muslims as perfect little pious angels who are happy under their patriarchy?

Then again, there seems to be an obsession with making sure each representation of Muslims stands up to religious and cultural values without much room for criticism.
- ExMuslimVlogGuy
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Reply #3 - December 05, 2015, 07:35 PM

When I was involved in Muslim activism and this documentary came out, I remember the big fuss among Muslims MORE than ANYTHING from it was that it portrayed a Niqabi revealing the shape of her body... This is what Muslims found offensive the most. They claimed it made Muslim women look bad.

Of course modernists and progressive Muslims would address the same issues that were presented in the documentary as real things.

I remember Omar Suleiman (Islamic modernist preacher) saying "We have Uncles molesting their nieces in Islam and we need to address these issues."

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
- Diogenes
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Reply #4 - December 06, 2015, 05:33 AM

Quote from: Bolton34 on December 05, 2015, 07:17 PM
It's interesting, though it's worth pointing out that Malala also receives hatred, even if from Pakistanis who claim she's an agent of the evil West.

Ayaan is also painted as a traitor to her own by Muslims, from what I've seen. There is also the issue that she is said to have been kicked out of the Netherlands because she lied about her backstory (can anyone please clarify this?)

I watched Submission part 1 and... I don't understand what the fuss was about? How can it disgust anyone as a Muslim, when it's pointing out how religious patriarchy is used to undermine and oppress women. Is that why it's hated so much that the director got killed, that it's not painting Muslims as perfect little pious angels who are happy under their patriarchy?

Then again, there seems to be an obsession with making sure each representation of Muslims stands up to religious and cultural values without much room for criticism.

I think the point they were trying to make was that Ayyan was vilified amongst ex Muslims , I was wondering if this was common
- Cheetah
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Reply #5 - December 06, 2015, 05:47 AM

Quote from: Bolton34 on December 05, 2015, 07:17 PM
It's interesting, though it's worth pointing out that Malala also receives hatred, even if from Pakistanis who claim she's an agent of the evil West.

Ayaan is also painted as a traitor to her own by Muslims, from what I've seen. There is also the issue that she is said to have been kicked out of the Netherlands because she lied about her backstory (can anyone please clarify this?)

I watched Submission part 1 and... I don't understand what the fuss was about? How can it disgust anyone as a Muslim, when it's pointing out how religious patriarchy is used to undermine and oppress women. Is that why it's hated so much that the director got killed, that it's not painting Muslims as perfect little pious angels who are happy under their patriarchy?

Then again, there seems to be an obsession with making sure each representation of Muslims stands up to religious and cultural values without much room for criticism.

Aayan Hirsi Ali is still a Dutch citizen, and has never been thrown out of the Netherlands for any reason at all.

"Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny." - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
- Bolton34
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Reply #6 - December 07, 2015, 02:55 PM

So she never lied?
- AGirlWithDoubts
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Reply #7 - December 07, 2015, 05:03 PM

Quote from: Diogenes on December 05, 2015, 05:53 PM
Not saying I agree with this but I would be curious to know your thoughts on the matter

Hmmm it's true that most of what I have heard about AHA is negativity from the left; they feel that she sold herself to certain right-wing groups. I think that she got the parts about Breivik and his motives all wrong but would need to read her books before I can judge.

What some people do not seem to realise is that reform comes from within. If you want to be an activist for Muslim women's rights then you need to go about it in a way that will help you gain the support of Muslim women. Most are indoctrinated into accepting and even supporting the anti-woman Islamic rulings so if you go out and say "your religion is the source of a lot of atrocities and you are being oppressed you it" then while true, I guarantee that the response will not be positive.
- AGirlWithDoubts
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Reply #8 - December 07, 2015, 05:04 PM

Quote from: Bolton34 on December 07, 2015, 02:55 PM
So she never lied?

She did about some things but did not lose her citizenship as a result. I think she had yo step down from Dutch Parliament but that was it.
- Helaine
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Reply #9 - December 07, 2015, 06:06 PM

Her "lies" as I read it, is pretty much her changing her name. Which, as we know, many immigrants did that to get approved easier. But everybody knows about this yet nobody really cares about it. It's not a big deal for liberals.

However, as Hirsi Ali came about and became right-wing, the "progressive" liberals started to mention her "lies" pretending that it was somehow some tragedy or something. It's not. Everybody knows that many immigrants change their name and age so they get through immigration easily.

Other "lies" that they accused her, from what I read of, comes from hearsay with no substantial evidence. Basically slinging mud competition.

I mean, she's still a Dutch citizen, still a political activist until now.

Quote
What some people do not seem to realise is that reform comes from within.
- puzzlelover
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Reply #10 - December 07, 2015, 08:06 PM

from a GirlwithDoubts
Quote
Hmmm it's true that most of what I have heard about AHA is negativity from the left; they feel that she sold herself to certain right-wing groups. I think that she got the parts about Breivik and his motives all wrong but would need to read her books before I can judge.

I found her response to this on Patheos:-

Quote
Here she explains her comments in an interview with Sam Harris,
Well, on the topic of Breivik, it goes without saying that I was horrified by his actions. He is one of the worst mass murderers in history, and there’s no question about that. Like most people, I had never heard of him before he went on his killing spree. However, he did write a thousand-page manifesto in which he quoted John Stuart Mill and other thinkers, and even me. Trying to use other people to justify your own actions is not unusual in mass murderers. Osama bin Laden quoted Noam Chomsky with approval. Does that make Chomsky in any way culpable for the behavior of bin Laden? Of course not. Just as no one quoted by Breivik is responsible for him.
…
In any case, I gave a speech at an award ceremony in Berlin, in the spring of 2012, on the shortcomings of policies based on the theory of “multiculturalism,” and I said that Breivik was one deeply unfortunate product of these policies, as are the rising number of European jihadis. They are unintended products, to be sure, because multiculturalism is all about good intentions.
…
My remarks in Berlin were a plea to lift the iron curtain of political correctness so that citizens can engage in politics through peaceful means and debate, and thus channel their frustrations with immigration and Islam through the system. This is elementary political science—but, of course, Islamists and their friends on the Left have twisted my words to make me sound like I was applauding an atrocity. Multiculturalist policies and political correctness make it easier for radical Muslims to preach, inspire, mobilize, and target immigrant communities on the grounds of religious freedom. And those who criticize them in Europe are silenced or branded as racist Islamophobes.

- See more at: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danthropology/2015/03/sorry-faux-liberals-but-ayaan-hirsi-ali-did-not-defend-the-terrorist-attack-by-anders-breivik/#sthash.qol5IMeD.dpuf
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