History of the Islamic empire and sharia

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- laico
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History of the Islamic empire and sharia
OP - December 09, 2015, 11:37 PM

During the 'Islamic golden age' society flourished with diversity and prosperity. poetry, art, science. Even famous critics of Islam lived in the Islamic empire and said things that you can scarcely believe someone could get away with. If they were living under sharia why is the sharia we are familiar with today seem to be nothing like the one described in the past.

Am i missing something or have misunderstood something? I have been looking for an answer but can't get a real explanation from anywhere.
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Reply #1 - December 10, 2015, 01:52 AM

Islamic empires were never governed by sharia. Sharia doesn't work.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #2 - December 10, 2015, 02:57 AM

Under the "Islamic" golden-age the Muslims in the Near East were governed by Mutazilite caliphs like Harun al-Rashid and al-Ma'mun. They took the caliphal title seriously - caliph of God. Such a caliph could mediate between *all* the religions - including Sunni Islam. They believed that the caliph could treat the Qur'an itself as a created work: delivered to a man, like parts of the Torah were delivered to Moses.

Would Muslims recognise such a caliphate as "Islamic" today?

AFTERTHOUGHT: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=29558.msg842388
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Reply #3 - December 10, 2015, 03:05 AM

Here's a nice video with Neil De Grasse Tyson talking about this subject a little bit. Like Quod said, it wasn't Shariah per say that ruled. It wasn't the fundamentalists. The fundamentalists actually despise people from Islam's golden age and the Ottoman Empire. The Islamic Golden Age was successful because they were open to everyone coming and contributing ideas. It was the people. Nothing really to do with religiosity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDAT98eEN5Q

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
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Reply #4 - December 10, 2015, 06:14 AM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on December 10, 2015, 01:52 AM
Islamic empires were never governed by sharia. Sharia doesn't work.

Preach!

No, seriously. Not really surprising that many of contributors to Islamic Golden Age weren't fundamentalist muslims. They are as liberal as they can get, maybe even more deist than muslim.
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Reply #5 - December 10, 2015, 09:44 AM

So they didn't live under sharia? What type of system was it then?
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Reply #6 - December 10, 2015, 09:56 AM

I'm sure you can look the details of it up, but from what I vaguely remember when it came to the Golden Age of Islam, it was the Mu'tazilite "Muslims" that ruled during this golden age.

The Mu'tazilite sect was a philosopher sect of Islam that was considered "kaafir" by the Sunni school of thought.

Ibn Sina, whom many muslims take their pride in boasting about when it comes to the Golden Age, was actually considered a kaafir by many different sects in Islam, including Sunnis.

The Mu'tazilite "Muslims" incorporated Hinduism and Greek philosophy into their beliefs during that time.

So what they did was in defiance to the Qur'an and Sunnah for sure. So this is the main difference between them and what Muslims are trying to do with Shariah Law. Muslims are trying to take the Quran and Hadith and apply it directly into Shariah Law, whereas the philosophers at the time of the Golden Era were very open-minded.

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #7 - December 10, 2015, 10:00 AM

Quote
So they didn't live under sharia? What type of system was it then?

For one thing most people in the early medieval "Islamic" world weren't Muslims. It's the ruling group that was Muslim. The change to majority Muslim societies came gradually over centuries.

Which side are you on?
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Reply #8 - December 10, 2015, 10:06 AM

Quote from: ExMuslimVlogGuy on December 10, 2015, 09:56 AM
I'm sure you can look the details of it up, but from what I vaguely remember when it came to the Golden Age of Islam, it was the Mu'tazilite "Muslims" that ruled during this golden age.

The Mu'tazilite sect was a philosopher sect of Islam that was considered "kaafir" by the Sunni school of thought.

Ibn Sina, whom many muslims take their pride in boasting about when it comes to the Golden Age, was actually considered a kaafir by many different sects in Islam, including Sunnis.

The Mu'tazilite "Muslims" incorporated Hinduism and Greek philosophy into their beliefs during that time.

So what they did was in defiance to the Qur'an and Sunnah for sure. So this is the main difference between them and what Muslims are trying to do with Shariah Law. Muslims are trying to take the Quran and Hadith and apply it directly into Shariah Law, whereas the philosophers at the time of the Golden Era were very open-minded.

Well Mu'tazelite thought lost influence by about the 13th century and the ottoman empire lasted many centuries after the 13th and flourished too.

I can't find anything looking it up. I have read multiple books and articles regarding the rise and development of Islam and caliphates too. I can't get a specific answer.
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Reply #9 - December 10, 2015, 10:10 AM

Quote from: zeca on December 10, 2015, 10:00 AM
For one thing most people in the early medieval "Islamic" world weren't Muslims. It's the ruling group that was Muslim. The change to majority Muslim societies came gradually over centuries.

Yes, that's a good point. I have read as long they paid the tax levied on them they were free to live in relative peace and freedom. But what actual system/systems of governance were these empires living under? Was it the same as we seen in the four Sunni schools we see today? If so why is it so different to what we associate with sharia today?
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Reply #10 - December 10, 2015, 10:21 AM

Quote from: ExMuslimVlogGuy on December 10, 2015, 09:56 AM
I'm sure you can look the details of it up, but from what I vaguely remember when it came to the Golden Age of Islam, it was the Mu'tazilite "Muslims" that ruled during this golden age.

The Mu'tazilite sect was a philosopher sect of Islam that was considered "kaafir" by the Sunni school of thought.

Ibn Sina, whom many muslims take their pride in boasting about when it comes to the Golden Age, was actually considered a kaafir by many different sects in Islam, including Sunnis.

The Mu'tazilite "Muslims" incorporated Hinduism and Greek philosophy into their beliefs during that time.

So what they did was in defiance to the Qur'an and Sunnah for sure. So this is the main difference between them and what Muslims are trying to do with Shariah Law. Muslims are trying to take the Quran and Hadith and apply it directly into Shariah Law, whereas the philosophers at the time of the Golden Era were very open-minded.

By the way, I am not sure if you're statement about them going ' going against the Quran and sunnah' is completely accurate. I am sure they very much believed what they were doing was in line with Quran and sunnah lol. Maybe your salafi background is seeping through a bit here
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Reply #11 - December 10, 2015, 10:33 AM

I can't recall everything about the Ottoman Empire from the top of my head, but I do remember reading how they carried out their beliefs and I will say that it was far from any Traditional Shariah.. I hate to say it like that too because every Muslim interprets "Shariah" differently nowadays.

But for sure The Ottoman Empire held many superstitious beliefs and incorporated what would be considered "Shirk" by many educated Muslims. For example in the land that they ruled, unmarried women were allowed to go to trees and seek blessings for a good husband.

From a political standpoint I can't really say much, but I remember their beliefs clearly, and they did not rule by a traditional Sunni school of thought. Maybe they incorporated some Islamic technical terms like "Caliphate" but it doesn't mean that they followed a mainstream Quran and Sunnah.

You have to understand that if anyone rules by Shariah according to the Qur'an and Sunnah, it just turns to shit. The more close-minded a nation is, the more prone it is to fail.

The Ottoman Empire were definitely not concerned with "Beliefs" per say. More of a political thing that wanted to incorporate the terms "Muslims" and "Islam."

I wouldn't associate Islam with any success or any empire that "flourished." Just look at what happened to the first 4 Caliphates of Islam if you really want to see what Islam brought.

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #12 - December 10, 2015, 10:35 AM

Quote from: laico on December 10, 2015, 10:21 AM
By the way, I am not sure if you're statement about them going ' going against the Quran and sunnah' is completely accurate. I am sure they very much believed what they were doing was in line with Quran and sunnah lol. Maybe your salafi background is seeping through a bit here

No by all means, if you want to consider the Mu'tazilites to be Muslims, then you'd have to go against the majority of Muslims. Nothing Salafi about this at all.. Why do I say this? Because the Mu'tazilities believe that the Qur'an is created. That it is fallible. And most Muslims will just consider that outside the fold of Islam. Just stating the opinion. Not trying to upset anyone. If you want to believe what they believe, more power to you.. But be consistent and say that this is not the typical Shariah most Muslims believe.

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #13 - December 10, 2015, 10:52 AM

Quote from: ExMuslimVlogGuy on December 10, 2015, 10:35 AM
No by all means, if you want to consider the Mu'tazilites to be Muslims, then you'd have to go against the majority of Muslims. Nothing Salafi about this at all.. Why do I say this? Because the Mu'tazilities believe that the Qur'an is created. That it is fallible. And most Muslims will just consider that outside the fold of Islam. Just stating the opinion. Not trying to upset anyone. If you want to believe what they believe, more power to you.. But be consistent and say that this is not the typical Shariah most Muslims believe.

I don't judge someone to be Muslim or not by what most Muslims believe, if someone believes what they are doing is Islamic and they call themselves Muslim then i'll call them Muslims. Heck, once upon a time most Muslims were mu'tazilites, so even from that perspective you could argue they were Muslims lol.

I never said the Mu'tazilites thought is the typical Sharia most Muslims believe, this Mu'tazilte talk is just a tangent we have gone off on.

Well, as the empires were empires, essentially run by kings, they couldn't have been following sharia to the letter obviously otherwise it would be an elected caliph. My question is, how close was the system of governance of the Islamic empires to the sharia in Sunni Islam.
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Reply #14 - December 10, 2015, 11:00 AM

I just wanted to clarify and be specific before anyone read this thread and got the idea that the golden age of islam and the ottoman empire was ruled by what most considered sharia law. and that it "flourished" because of sharia law, because that is certainly not the case. Didn't mean to get into the "beliefs" and be all "salafi" like but when you're talking "sharia" you can't help but get into it.

Just also wanted to clarify that Kings are allowed in Sharia (ok enough of that before I drive someone crazy.)

"how close was the system of governance of the Islamic empires to the sharia in Sunni Islam"

Not very close.

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #15 - December 10, 2015, 11:03 AM

Quote from: laico on December 09, 2015, 11:37 PM
........... 'Islamic golden age'..............

Am i missing something or have misunderstood something? I have been looking for an answer but can't get a real explanation from anywhere.

Hello laico.. how are you doing? How is Spain??...

Yes..yes., you are missing something and you have misunderstood many things in Islam. It goes to you and it goes to millions of Muslim folks and Non-Muslim folks...

We have plenty of folders in CEMB on this so-called Islamic Golden age ...

Let me tell you couple of secrets here...

1). The so-called Islamic Golden age is in spite of Islam NOT because of Islam.

2). Salam_Habibi said here " That is not right.. It should be read as "I testify that there was no God, there is no god and there was no Muhammad"

these two statements along with zeca post should clear most of the doubts about Islam.. and its origins..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #16 - December 10, 2015, 11:11 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on December 10, 2015, 11:03 AM
Hello laico.. how are you doing? How is Spain??...

Yes..yes., you are missing something and you have misunderstood many things in Islam. It goes to you and it goes to millions of Muslim folks and Non-Muslim folks...

We have plenty of folders in CEMB on this so-called Islamic Golden age ...

Let me tell you couple of secrets here...

1). The so-called Islamic Golden age is in spite of Islam NOT because of Islam.

2). Salam_Habibi said here " I testify that there is no God, and that Muhammad is not a Messenger of God" That is Not right.. It should be read as "I testify that there was no God, there is no god and there was No Muhammad"

these two statements along with zeca post should clear most of the doubts about Islam.. and its origins..

Yeeeze!! I am great man how you doing? I see you have not changed one bit.
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Reply #17 - December 10, 2015, 11:13 AM

Quote from: ExMuslimVlogGuy on December 10, 2015, 11:00 AM
I just wanted to clarify and be specific before anyone read this thread and got the idea that the golden age of islam and the ottoman empire was ruled by what most considered sharia law. and that it "flourished" because of sharia law, because that is certainly not the case. Didn't mean to get into the "beliefs" and be all "salafi" like but when you're talking "sharia" you can't help but get into it.

Just also wanted to clarify that Kings are allowed in Sharia (ok enough of that before I drive someone crazy.)

"how close was the system of governance of the Islamic empires to the sharia in Sunni Islam"

Not very close.

Wait, kings are allowed? lol That's new to me. Or is that a joke about Saudi Arabia and salafism?

It would be great to find a specific answer, i mean, i know they were following it to some extent.
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Reply #18 - December 10, 2015, 11:25 AM

When we're talking about Sharia Law, we have to keep in mind about 4 things as this defines Sharia Law :

1. The Quran
2. The Hadith
3. Al-Qiyas (analogy deduction)
4. Ijmaa' (Scholarly consensus)

The whole time I'm talking from a traditional Sunni perspective..

As far as kings, I think I've seen a difference of opinion on it.. Not that it matters..

All of it is bullshit to me.. No one's going to flourish under any Islamic regime! lol

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #19 - December 10, 2015, 11:32 AM

Quote from: ExMuslimVlogGuy on December 10, 2015, 11:25 AM

1. The Quran
2. The Hadith
3. Al-Qiyas (analogy deduction)
4. Ijmaa' (Scholarly consensus)

All of it is bullshit to me..

let me rewrite that with a logical statement

"Quran and Hadith is nothing but bullshit,
hence Al-Qiyas is bullshit,
so Ijmaa' must be bullshit "
...... ExMuslimVlogGuy .....

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #20 - December 10, 2015, 01:44 PM

Found a perfect article for the topic.

http://leftfootforward.org/2014/08/the-caliphate-delusion-the-political-construct-that-bears-no-relevance-in-the-modern-world/
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Reply #21 - December 10, 2015, 07:03 PM

Quote from: laico on December 10, 2015, 01:44 PM
Found a perfect article for the topic.

http://leftfootforward.org/2014/08/the-caliphate-delusion-the-political-construct-that-bears-no-relevance-in-the-modern-world/

let me put something from that link of laico ..

Quote
the preeminent physician, chemist and philosopher al-Razi (865-925 CE) stated:

“The falseness of what all the prophets say is evident in the fact that they contradict one another: one affirms what the other denies, and yet each claims to be the sole depository of the truth; thus the New Testament contradicts the Torah, the Koran the New Testament. As for the Koran, it is but an assorted mixture of ‘absurd and inconsistent fables,’ which has ridiculously been judged inimitable, when, in fact, its language, style, and its much-vaunted ‘eloquence’ are far from being faultless.”

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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