Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


News From Syria
by zeca
Yesterday at 05:06 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
Yesterday at 03:51 PM

New Britain
Yesterday at 03:41 PM

Ashes to beads: South Kor...
December 03, 2024, 09:44 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
November 30, 2024, 09:01 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
November 30, 2024, 08:53 AM

Gaza assault
by zeca
November 27, 2024, 07:13 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
November 24, 2024, 06:05 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 22, 2024, 06:45 AM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
November 19, 2024, 11:36 PM

Dutch elections
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 10:11 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 08:46 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America

 (Read 138387 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 22 23 2425 26 ... 30 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #690 - February 08, 2017, 04:15 PM

    Certainlydoubt

    You really should go and read the EO  - ie do the basic checkables.

    The EO provides for indefinite extensions to banning the nationals of the 7 countries IF THEIR GOVERNMENT IS UNABLE TO PROVIDE ADEQUATE INFO TO ASSESS WHETHER APPLICANTS ARE A SECURITY OR PUBLIC SAFETY THREAT.

    Given that 5 of the 7 countries on the list are currently in a state of civil war / extreme civil conflict, with major issues of population displacement and a measure of bureaucratic or administrative collapse that ranges from utterly fucked up  ( Iraq and Syria for example ) to complete absence (Yemen, Libya), the stated criterion is impossible to achieve.

    The only country on the list that actually functions on an administrative-bureaucratic basis as a normal country with conditions of civil peace and could potentially comply is Iran ( altho' Sudan might qualify sooner than the other 5 ). Unfortunately, Iran and the US don't  have diplomatic relations, and I'm pretty sure that as a matter of its own domestic law US officials are barred from making routine bureaucratic requests of their Iranian counterparts, data sharing, law enforcement cooperation etc. Oops.

    As written, the EO effectively bans said nationals indefinitely if it survives the legal challenges. This includes legal residents with green cards that have been lawfully obtained.

    Leaving aside the constitutional issues and the breach with existing US statute, try to concretely think through the implications of a blanket ban on nationals of all muslim-majority countries, dual nationals, muslims who are citizens of non majority muslim countries etc. Try to define who the hell a muslim is for the purposes of the EO in the first place. A blanket ban on nationals of, say, all member states of the OIC would result in an omnishambolic catastrofuck of epic proportions  - one of the first casualties being the collapse of the global aviation system, followed in short order by a global recession.

    The 7 countries listed are the easiest targets - Sudan, Somalia and Yemen are impoverished and broken; Syria, Iraq and Libya are broken and heading towards impoverishment. Iran is the anomaly. The basic unifying feature that they share is that there are no direct flights between them and the US, and no US carrier is directly impacted by the ban ( altho' they will inevitably lose business as travel plans get cancelled going forward - along with other carriers who will be more seriously impacted ). The only other nationality that might plausibly be targeted for inclusion in the ban at this stage is Palestinian. Afghanistan would be close behind.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #691 - February 08, 2017, 08:10 PM

    Ordinary Americans carried out inhumane acts for Trump
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #692 - February 08, 2017, 08:54 PM

    True. I have a friend who lives a very secular life, doesn't wear hijab, etc who works for Qatar Airways, so she flies a lot. She got back home to Florida and was taken into a room for interrogation. Since she's a US citizen they had to let her in, but that didn't stop them from bullying her and asking lots of invasive questions.


    Common tactic of law enforcement. They have no evidence so they put people in a situation in which they compromise themselves. What is horrible is that good citizens want to cooperate with law enforcement so unwittingly go along. When someone stands up for their rights this in turned into suspicion.
     
    Quote
    The only way that anyone could have a clue that this girl is a Muslim is through her name. So they were targeting people on their names, the way they look perhaps other things such as wearing a hijab in their passport photo. I remember a certain New Atheist "liberal" advocating exactly this. Now he is acting like he is against the ban, but has he made a statement on how he was wrong to support it in the first place? Because I haven't found one.


    This is actually a valid tactic of law enforcement. It is also how humans think based on their experiences.

    On face value a lot of people supported the EO, then they read it.

  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #693 - February 08, 2017, 09:15 PM

    With all due respect you blamed BLM when a disabled man was kidnapped and tortured by Black youth, despite the fact that you didn't have absolutely proof that there were any links to BLM. You justified this by using increased racial tensions, which you believe BLM to be responsible for.

    Apply the same standard of proof to my friend's situation  and there is an even higher likelihood on the balance of probabilities that it had something to do with Trump. In addition to the invasive questions which I won't go into, she was asked pointless questions about her faith such as how many times a day she prays, and this just happens to occur after Trump's executive order as opposed to it happening at any other time. Add the fact that there have been numerous accounts of the same thing happening to others who are either Muslim or were mistaken to be after the ban and yes, while we can't be 100% certain that it had something to do with Trump, it's far more likely than not that it does. It isn't just about how I feel.



    That wasn't my claim. My claim was that BLM as a political organization is contributing to an environment where some young people can scalp another person and feel good about it while saying "fuck white people", "fuck Trump", and that the white person, since he is white, represents Trump. BLM are contributing to an environment where racism is considered only something that black people can suffer from, not that white people could ever possibly be victims of. Where this obviously racially motivated crime was celebrated by its perpetrators as something they were doing to fight back against white oppression and where even the police were quick to minimize the severity and could not acknowledge that there was a racial component, instead referring to the men and women who committed the crime as "kids", saying that "we all do dumb things when we're young", and only putting the "hate crime" part of it as the kid being handicapped, not that he was white and presumably, according to the attackers, a Trump voter. My claim is not that BLM is the only reason that they would ever consider kidnapping and torturing someone. It's that BLM is the reason why they feel good about themselves while doing so.


    It's just like how ISIS is not themselves generally going and finding angry young people to recruit. They're not doing what someone like Charles Manson did and locating people they can manipulate. Instead, they're publishing their propaganda, they're posting videos and magazines online, and the people who are interested go to them. People who have never been to Iraq or Syria or even the Middle East, and who have never met an ISIS recruiter, can be radicalized online and then go commit a terrorist attack. They're creating an environment where that's encouraged and normalized, even if the people involved aren't themselves directly affiliated with the movement.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #694 - February 08, 2017, 10:01 PM

    Gal from USA

    I can't but help from ironically noting the following:

    "World peace established, refugees welcome" as the operational definition of Trump's policy on refugee admissions to the US.

    Empirically, it would be helpful if you could give some details - let's say a list of actual attacks of the non-Bowling Green variety -  of the spike in terrorist attacks by refugees from the countries on the banned list, or indeed other countries for that matter, in Europe since the beginning of 2015. Obviously attacks perpetrated by French or Belgian nationals don't count.

    Personally, I can't shake off the feeling that doing a basic check to see whether there was any noticeable terrorist threat from refugees/visitors/LPR's of the 7 listed countries would have been the logical thing to do prior to issuing the EO. It took less than a day for a large number of people to spot the rather glaring feature, that regardless of the stringency of the entry regulations over the past 40 years ( and we can all agree that they have gotten ever tighter over time ), there simply wasn't any empirical basis for the ban on nationals of those countries, as the number of terrorist incidents ascribed to them in the US, and in the West in general, is vanishingly small, and that whatever the vetting systems that the US was applying  pre-Trump were working perfectly well to weed out individuals who might have had nefarious intentions. But that would have completely undermined the premise of the EO in the first place, and apparently the last thing that the Trump administration wants is to let the facts get in the way of a symbolic move, and that logically suggests that absent any substantive national security objective being met it's simply a pretext for something else  - that something else being, in my judgement, the first step in a series of steps that would go some way towards a  shutdown of sorts of Muslims, and collaterally, non-Muslim others of disfavoured national origins, coming to the US.  



  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #695 - February 08, 2017, 10:12 PM

    Empirically, it would be helpful if you could give some details - let's say a list of actual attacks of the non-Bowling Green variety -  of the spike in terrorist attacks by refugees from the countries on the banned list, or indeed other countries for that matter, in Europe since the beginning of 2015. Obviously attacks perpetrated by French or Belgian nationals don't count.




    This is a map of all the attacks committed by migrants in Germany in 2016 that have been confirmed by police. The 2017 map is here. You can click on them or zoom in to see more details about the specific crime committed. These are just the ones in Germany, I don't know of any similar maps for other countries.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #696 - February 08, 2017, 11:36 PM

    It's just like how ISIS is not themselves generally going and finding angry young people to recruit. They're not doing what someone like Charles Manson did and locating people they can manipulate. Instead, they're publishing their propaganda, they're posting videos and magazines online, and the people who are interested go to them. People who have never been to Iraq or Syria or even the Middle East, and who have never met an ISIS recruiter, can be radicalized online and then go commit a terrorist attack. They're creating an environment where that's encouraged and normalized, even if the people involved aren't themselves directly affiliated with the movement.


    Using that same logic, would you not agree that Trump is creating an environment where it is acceptable for authorities to bully and harass Muslims or people who could be mistaken as Muslims when they travel?
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #697 - February 08, 2017, 11:43 PM

    Using that same logic, would you not agree that Trump is creating an environment where it is acceptable for authorities to bully and harass Muslims or people who could be mistaken as Muslims when they travel?


    Yes and no. It's possible that that is the effect he is having on some of the people who work at the TSA, but given their record during the last 15 years, I'd say that anyone who was strongly motivated by xenophobia instead of something like just needing the money or whatever was probably already in the TSA. I don't think there have been enough new hires in the last month to have changed things too drastically, and given that the EO was already struck down, it's not having a policy impact anymore, which means that as long as the people in the TSA who are motivated by xenophobia continue acting within the bounds of the law, things haven't actually gotten much worse. Since, as far as I know, no right-wing extremists have gone on a killing spree or actually hurt people except the one shooting that was self defense (and there was no arrest because the police agreed it was self-defense), I don't think right-wing violence is as big of a deal as the media is making it out to be, at least not in current year.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #698 - February 08, 2017, 11:58 PM

    I'll try to explain the irrevocable harms that the EO sets up, and I'll try to do this as narrowly as possible with reference to LPR's ( Legal permanent residents ie green card holders ) with Syrian passports flying in from, say,  London. ( I presume that you understand that there are no passenger flights of any description currently coming either to or from Syria, and that it is impossible to deport a Syrian national back to Syria. ) You ought then to be able to generalise the predicaments across the boards to understand the human wreckage that the EO creates. The EO directly affects hundreds of thousands of people, and indirectly affects millions. Many of those adversely affected are, natch, US citizens.

    When the EO was announced, at least some LPR's who were airborne were detained on arrival. Given that the EO was introduced with no interagency process, proper or competent legal scrutiny or implementation guidance ( ie immigration officials were left to their own devices as to how to interpret the EO, which they weren't actually capable of doing ) the whole thing seems, unsurprisingly, to have been a shambolic mess that very quickly fell apart due to prompt legal interventions, popular protest and the actions of some public officials.

    As far as it's been possible to ascertain, the EO supposedly applies to LPR holders, with the possibility that LPR's may be admitted on a case by case basis - ie the default presumption is that Green Card holders won't be admitted, and no one has a clue on the criteria for admission on a case by case basis as no implementation guidance has been published, quite possibly because none such exists.

    So Syrian LPR arriving from London gets detained. Having entered the UK, presumably on a single entry visa, she cannot be sent back to London. ICE can try to muscle her into accepting deportation to another country that will accept her, assuming one can be found, but she very sensibly refuses ( it might be grounds for invalidating her LPR status - which I think we could agree would be a case of irrevocable harm ). So, absent the legal holds, our Syrian LPR is now in detention, she can't be sent elsewhere, and there are no criteria that we are aware of that terminate said detention. EO has a self-perpetuating mechanism written into it and our poor Syrian lassie is potentially stuck in detention indefinitely. Job? Income? Rent/Mortgage? Bills? Real world consequences for her and her family are glaringly obvious and pretty fucking serious.

    Syrian LPR not allowed to board plane at Heathrow. Single entry visa to UK, valid for 60 more days. Tick tock. Under terms of EO she is denied possibility of returning to US where she is a legal permanent resident. EO has self-perpetuating mechanism that potentially bars her from returning indefinitely with the added fun of also being stuck in the UK through no fault of her own, thereby earning herself a one-way ticket to Yarls Wood detention centre with no prospect of release other than a fit of uncharacteristic compassion by the Home Office granting some sort of temporary leave to remain whilst Donald Trump works out what the hell is going on. Job? Income? etc. Real world consequences that constitute irrevocable harms.

    Mostly, the poor sods penalised by the EO are just stuck in the US, with little prospect of being able to safely travel in the knowledge that they will be able to return to their homes. Real world damage to educational and career prospects, professional advancement etc. Negative psychological effects are incalculable, but I'm not going out on a speculative limb in suggesting that such will be both real and in some cases severe.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #699 - February 09, 2017, 12:39 AM

    Since, as far as I know, no right-wing extremists have gone on a killing spree or actually hurt people except the one shooting that was self defense (and there was no arrest because the police agreed it was self-defense), I don't think right-wing violence is as big of a deal as the media is making it out to be, at least not in current year.

    There's a statement on the shooting here:

    Right-wing shooter of unarmed anti-racist walks free

    I don't see how this can be seen as self-defence.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #700 - February 09, 2017, 12:56 AM

    There's a statement on the shooting here: https://libcom.org/files/gdc14-2017-01-25-seattlepr21.pdf

    I don't see how this can be seen as self-defence.


    Considering that the statement is from the "General Defense Committee of the Industrial Workers of the World", according to the seal on the top, which I'm assuming is either a Communist or Antifa organization, I don't see a reason to take it as anything more than a politically motivated opinion of a deeply biased agency, any more than I would consider the spin put on it by Breitbart to be credible. According to the Seattle Times and the police, which both at least are attempting to appear neutral:

    Quote
    At the UW, people began lining up for the Kane Hall speech, sponsored by the College Republicans, late Friday afternoon. The crowd began clashing about two hours later, when a group of people dressed in black showed up and forced its way to the front of the line.
    ...
    Police formed a line outside to help ticket-holders get in, but protesters surrounded them. Several people were hit with paint, and officers dodged flying bricks.
    Once the speech ended, police told audience members to remove their Donald Trump hats and other gear before leaving. Officers escorted the crowd out through an underground parking garage as a crowd of about 250 people remained outside the building.


    It's easy to see how a person in that situation may have felt threatened in that situation and may have felt the need to fight back if he was assaulted or approached by someone he was afraid was about to assault him.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #701 - February 09, 2017, 01:00 AM

    From the statement:
    Quote
    The victim is an anti-racist and anti-fascist activist, and member of the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW), and the IWW General Defense Committee (GDC). His lawyer has confirmed that he was there to protest Milo Yiannopoulos’ hateful speech and violent incitement. He had been seen de-escalating conflicts between protesters and counter-protesters before he was shot. He remains in Harborview Hospital.

    Social media activists allege the shooter is a well-known local right-wing gun activist who sent Yiannopoulos multiple facebook messages that evening. This person claimed in those messages that a protester had stolen a beloved ”Make America Great Again” hat, and requested a new, autographed one from Yiannopoulos. In these messages he claimed a protester had ’sucker punched’ them.

    Multiple witnesses have reported that this person appeared drunk that evening, and had aggressively and repeatedly sought confrontations with protesters. This behavior can be seen on videos released by the Southern Poverty Law Center, and others. Media sources have reported that the suspect has claimed they shot in self-defense and that they originally thought that the person they shot was a ’white supremacist,’ but UWPD deny these reports. The reporting of these sorts of unsubstantiated claims has clouded the facts, and allowed undue credence for the right-wing narrative of fear.


    Quote
    Considering that the statement is from the "General Defense Committee of the Industrial Workers of the World", according to the seal on the top, which I'm assuming is either a Communist or Antifa organization, I don't see a reason to take it as anything more than a politically motivated opinion of a deeply biased agency

    The IWW according to Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Workers_of_the_World

  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #702 - February 09, 2017, 01:10 AM

    Thing is, zeca, even if that statement is 100% accurate, most American states, including Washington, have this weird law called "Stand Your Ground". Basically, if you're being attacked or you can reasonably think someone is about to attack you, you don't need to retreat or warn them before you shoot them, and that's legally self defense. That might not be a good thing but it's how our laws are. If you're having bricks thrown at you and then someone approaches you from the group that is throwing bricks, it's reasonable to assume you're about to be attacked, which means that the shooting does fall squarely within the realm of stand your ground laws, which means that the shooting was legally self defense.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #703 - February 09, 2017, 10:15 AM

    Investigation is on going. Several search warrants where issued but sealed.

    There's a statement on the shooting here:

    Right-wing shooter of unarmed anti-racist walks free

    I don't see how this can be seen as self-defence.


    The political jargon is hilarious and mostly made up. Radicals from both sides are simply insane.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #704 - February 09, 2017, 10:29 AM

    Canadian woman denied entry to U.S. after Muslim prayers found on her phone
    Quote
    Fadwa Alaoui is a Moroccan-born Canadian citizen living in Brossard, Quebec. Like a lot of Quebecers, she sometimes drives down to Vermont to take advantage of the deals. But on Saturday, when her family pulled up at the border, Alaoui encountered something new.

    After the usual set of questions, Alaoui was asked about her religion and her thoughts on U.S. President Donald Trump. Border agents took her phone and fingerprints. Four hours later she was told that her family wasn't welcome and she was forced to turn back.

    Alaoui spoke with As It Happens guest host Helen Mann about her ordeal and why she is struggling to explain what happened to her son. Here is part of their conversation.
    ....

  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #705 - February 09, 2017, 10:42 AM

    https://mobile.twitter.com/i/moments/829568103012929536?m=1
    Quote
    Protesters in Arizona have blocked ICE vehicles attempting to deport Guadalupe García de Rayos, who illegally immigrated to the U.S. at 15 and has lived here for more than two decades. Her two children, U.S. citizens, are among those calling for her release.


    http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/immigration/2017/02/08/could-woman-first-arizonan-deported-because-trump-orders/97637928/?hootPostID=cba8f8a3f7a5791b696e546be1c18070
    Quote
    For  four years, federal immigration authorities have given Guadalupe Garcia de Rayos a pass to remain in the U.S. rather than deport her back to Mexico.

    That changed Wednesday, when Garcia de Rayos went to check in as usual at the central Phoenix offices of Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Instead of being released, she was taken into custody, while her husband, two children — both U.S.-born citizens — and a group of supporters watched in tears.

    And by Wednesday night, her case had become the latest epicenter of the national debate over immigration enforcement. Before midnight, after hours of protests outside the ICE office on North Central Avenue, federal vehicles left the facility, possibly with Garcia de Rayos inside.

    Her family and supporters fear Garcia de Rayos, 36, may be deported quickly to Mexico. That, they say, would make her among the first casualties under a shift in policy by ICE under President Donald Trump.
    ....

  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #706 - February 09, 2017, 11:00 AM

    https://mobile.twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/829350703307091971
    Quote
    For the last 2 days, I've been reporting from eastern Mosul, now under Iraqi control. It's amazing to finally be able to walk freely here
    ....
    I reported here in Nov/Dec of last year. Guess what's different on this trip? Everywhere I go, Iraqis want to ask about the visa ban

    I've been asked about it by officers of the elite CTS division who speak fluent English and who work with US special forces.

    On the banks of the Tigris, I was quizzed on the ban by Mohammed, with Iraq's Federal Police, himself a former interpreter for US forces

    But here's the best part. Guess who else is talking about it? ISIS is, according to a resident of W. Mosul my translator reached by cell

    My translator reached the resident at 2 am. ISIS is forbidding people under their rule to have phones. Resident hid his. Calls at night

    The resident said ISIS has been openly celebrating the ban. They've even coined a phrase for it:  الحظر المبارك

    Why are they calling it a "Blessed Ban?" Because ISIS sees this as *their* doing. They succeeded in scaring the daylight out of America

    ISIS, according to this resident of Western Mosul, thinks their terror tactic worked. They frightened the most powerful man in the world

    And they are celebrating, he says, because it proves to their followers that America really does "hate" Islam.
    ....
    Among ppl affected by the ban is my own translator. He was scheduled to have his 2nd intv for a visa for ppl who worked with the US army

    When you're standing in the liberated streets of (eastern) Mosul, it's clear who this ban is hurting: The people who helped us.

  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #707 - February 09, 2017, 11:16 AM

    The plural of "anecdote" is "data"  Afro


    You can bring up as many anecdotes as you like, zeca, it's not evidence. Any more than emotional appeals or calling people names would be evidence.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #708 - February 09, 2017, 12:23 PM

    That's saying that what's happening in the real world doesn't count as evidence for you. It's an argument from faith, not from reality.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #709 - February 09, 2017, 02:20 PM

    More denials of entry to the U.S.

    These are denials of entry for people from countries that aren't on the EO list.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #710 - February 09, 2017, 02:29 PM

    My Iranian uncle was just turned away from even entering US Embassy in Armenia let alone applying for visa

    Court delay of Trump travel ban doesn't help USF student in Iran
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #711 - February 09, 2017, 09:02 PM

    That's saying that what's happening in the real world doesn't count as evidence for you. It's an argument from faith, not from reality.



    Quote
    The Plural of Anecdote is Not Data


    Anecdote - a short account of a particular incident or event, especially of an interesting or amusing nature.

    Data - a series of observations, measurements, or facts; information

    ** The plural of Anecdote is not 'Data'. (The origin of this phrase can likely be attributed to Frank Kotsonis or to Roger Brinner.)

    Data is useful. Data represents information from either all relevant cases or a representative sample of all the relative cases. Inferences made from properly acquired data lead to scientific discoveries. Data is scientific. Unfortunately, data tends to be dry. It tends to be boring. We generally do not connect emotionally to 'data'.

    Anecdotes are stories. People have been telling stories for as long as there has been speech. The ability to tell stories likely led to tremendous survival advantages for those early human groups that achieved it. Our minds seem adapted to dealing with relatively small groups of 150 people or less. Language and storytelling played an important role in maintaining the groups' wellbeing. A tribe whose members could relate their individual experiences about the location of food or predators would be expected to survive in greater numbers. It is speculated that stories in the form of gossip may have given rise to important survival advantages.

    We empathize with a good storyteller because our ancestors passed on this trait as a survival skill. Hence, it literally is natural for us to become emotionally moved by a good story.


    Large Numbers Trumped by Small Stories


    The problems of our society are no longer limited to sample sizes of 150 or less. The problems that medical science tackles are often subtle. Their effects can only be teased out by examining very large numbers of cases. The benefits of blood pressure and cholesterol control may only become apparent when comparing groups of thousands. This means that a doctor may have to treat many people before preventing one catastrophe (see Number Needed to Treat on the Statistics and Risk page). For instance, in a large meta-analysis on the statin cholesterol drugs, it was found that only 27 people at risk needed to be treated to prevent one adverse cardiovascular event. For a doctor who sees about a hundred patients a week, realizing this fact can prevent many disasters. 

    But it will not be obvious unless one understands the data. The problem with prevention is that when it is done well, nothing noticeable happens.

    The same study showed that the number needed to harm one patient with statin therapy was 197. "Treating 1000 patients with a statin would prevent 37 cardiovascular events, and 5 AEs (adverse events) would be observed." The majority of these rare events were minor, such as reversible muscle aches. Serious adverse reactions, such as actual muscle damage, were vanishingly rare. In fact, the number needed to harm with respect to seriously high muscle enzymes was 3,400. The number needed to harm with respect to active muscle destruction was 7,428. So, you only need to treat 27 risky patients to prevent a serious consequence like a heart attack, but you have to treat 7,428 patients to seriously damage one patient's muscles.

    Now, consider a patient (let's call him 'Joe Alarmist') who is placed on a statin. He had heard on T.V. that statins can cause muscle damage. He is reluctant to take a statin even though his cholesterol is very high and he has multiple risks for heart disease. After 2 weeks on the medication, he feels that his back pain is worse than usual. He then notes that his legs ache after working. Now, according to the data, there is about a 1 in 200 chance that the statin is actually causally related to the perceived increase in muscle pain. But the reporter on T.V. was quite convincing. Joe stops the medication. At a family gathering, he tells the story about how terrible that statin was. "I would never go on that drug again." Joe's family is emotionally connected to him. They make an emotional connection to his story. Being family members, many of them are also at risk for heart disease. It is likely that one day, a doctor will prescribe a statin for one of them. It would then be unlikely that the doctor's cold 'data' would trump Joe's anecdote. (see the Availability Heuristic)

    Doctors must understand this. We understand the numbers. We must also understand our patients.


    Experience Based Medicine


    There have been many proposed 'treatments' that have not shown benefit. For instance, arthroscopic surgery for osteoarthritis of the knee has been practiced for decades. It seemed plausible that it should work. Doctors who perform the procedure receive positive feedback from patients often enough to enforce their belief in the procedure. They hear anecdotes from patients whose pain is a bit better after the operation. However, the data from randomized, controlled trials comparing 'sham' surgery to real surgery failed to show a significant difference in outcomes. In other words, it doesn't work. Does this mean that orthopedic surgeons have abandoned arthroscopic surgery for osteoarthritis of the knee? No. Although the data is acknowledged, efforts are made to rescue the falsified theory.

    Similarly, antidepressants are commonly prescribed for stressed-out patients who seem depressed with relatively low depression scores. Placebo controlled trials have falsified the notion that antidepressants are actually doing any good for these patients. Yet, antidepressants are prescribed at alarming rates. Why is this?

    We learned in The "Placebo Effect" page that many conditions have symptoms that wax and wane. Other conditions are self-limited and get better despite treatment. Professionals who treat these conditions hear the anecdotes told to them by their patients who happen to feel better after the treatments. Confirmation bias kicks in. Cognitive dissonance prevents them from accepting the real data. To these practitioners, these anecdotes become their data.

    As Mark Crislip, M.D. is fond of saying, the three most dangerous words in medicine are, "In my experience...".


    Marketing Anecdotes


    We are barraged with anecdotes from 'satisfied customers' on television, radio, newspaper and internet advertisements. Any claim about any product can be supported by anecdotes. Consider the hypothetical 'Product X'.

    "Product X cured my joint pain!" exclaims one happy customer. "I have never felt so good!" states another.

     Whether Product X does anything at all is irrelevant. If enough people are treated with Product X, at least some people will feel better purely by statistical chance. Others may only claim to feel better due to the secondary gain they receive from the attention of the T.V. camera. The point is, if you want to sell Product X, all you need to do is interview the 'responders' and place their anecdotes in the commercial.

    Many people are persuaded by anecdotes in commercials. Such 'data' can be worse than worthless. People who buy Product X may do so in lieu of effective treatments. By making such testimonials public, the marketers exploit the availability heuristic and power of the anecdote.

    Sometimes, the anecdote comes from an authority figure. This technique exploits the Appeal to Authority fallacy as well. The authority figure may be a celebrity who is paid to promote Product X. Why this should be of any value is a mystery. Sometimes the authority is an actual doctor in a white coat with a stethoscope. The doctor may actually be sincere with his anecdotes because of his "experience".


    Conclusion


    Patients are people and so are doctors. We are all persuaded on some level by anecdotes because we are a social species. Stories from our fellow tribesmen touch us emotionally, and our emotions often trump our rationality. Doctors who recognize this can avoid some of the pitfalls that occur when conveying scientific conclusions to their patients. Most will not hear the data. Many will listen if the doctor communicates facts like a good storyteller.

    source

    Quote
    The recent medical controversy over whether vaccinations cause autism reveals a habit of human cognition—thinking anecdotally comes naturally, whereas thinking scientifically does not.

    On the one side are scientists who have been unable to find any causal link between the symptoms of autism and the vaccine preservative thimerosal, which in the body breaks down into ethylmercury, the culprit du jour for autism’s cause. On the other side are parents who noticed that shortly after having their children vaccinated autistic symptoms began to appear. These anecdotal associations are so powerful that they cause people to ignore contrary evidence: ethylmercury is expelled from the body quickly (unlike its chemical cousin methylmercury) and therefore cannot accumulate in the brain long enough to cause damage. And in any case, autism continues to be diagnosed in children born after thimerosal was removed from most vaccines in 1999; today trace amounts exist in only a few.

    The reason for this cognitive disconnect is that we have evolved brains that pay attention to anecdotes because false positives (believing there is a connection between A and B when there is not) are usually harmless, whereas false negatives (believing there is no connection between A and B when there is) may take you out of the gene pool. Our brains are belief engines that employ association learning to seek and find patterns. Superstition and belief in magic are millions of years old, whereas science, with its methods of controlling for intervening variables to circumvent false positives, is only a few hundred years old. So it is that any medical huckster promising that A will cure B has only to advertise a handful of successful anecdotes in the form of testimonials.


    source

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #712 - February 09, 2017, 10:45 PM

    Well to turn the question around what would you be willing to consider as evidence on the effects of the EO?
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #713 - February 09, 2017, 11:28 PM

    https://mobile.twitter.com/NBCNightlyNews/status/829830382572945412
    Quote
    BREAKING: Halt on Trump travel ban remains in effect, appeals court rules

  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #714 - February 09, 2017, 11:50 PM

    Well to turn the question around what would you be willing to consider as evidence on the effects of the EO?


    Data. Not unverified and unverifiable stories from peoples' twitter feeds and blogs, and not those same unverified and unverifiable stories simply reposted onto increasingly disreputable mainstream media sites like CNN or MSNBC, a by-the-numbers breakdown of what happened in 2015 and 2016 in terms of border detentions, turning people away, and TSA interrogations and pat downs vs what has happened so far in 2017. I understand that that kind of thing would likely be difficult to get, but that's what I would need. Maybe wikileaks could acquire it.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #715 - February 10, 2017, 12:31 AM

    So you realize that shit's going to take time, right gal_from_usa?

    Until then, I think many have offered a principled argument as to why this is all fucked up, because that's all that someone can do from the sidelines to keep horrible shit from continuing. BTW, those in the law working against this order are real heroes.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #716 - February 10, 2017, 12:39 AM

    More on the appeal court ruling: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2017/feb/10/travel-ban-judges-refuse-reinstate-trump-order-reaction-live
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #717 - February 10, 2017, 12:41 AM

    So you realize that shit's going to take time, right gal_from_usa?


    Yes. However, I'd rather wait and see the facts than jump to conclusions based on anecdotes. As long as there is no evidence of something like death camps or firing squads, I don't see the urgency of jumping to conclusions.

    Until then, I think many have offered a principled argument as to why this is all fucked up, because that's all that someone can do from the sidelines to keep horrible shit from happening.


    Yes, many have, including me. I have pointed out multiple times in this thread that the EO (or at least the popular conception of it) was, beside anything else, unconstitutional, and have stated that I believe it will ultimately be overthrown in court. However, that's not a reason to ignore the rule of law or try to undermine the government by holding riots or attending "not my president" protests.

    BTW, those in the law working against this order are real heroes.


    Depends on what they're doing. If they're joining riots or refusing to stop rioters, if they're refusing to comply with the demands of their jobs like Kim Davis did, or if they're undermining national security by refusing to conduct any investigations into terrorist connections/sympathies or they are interfering with said investigations, then no they're not, they're enablers of terrorism.

    If they're working to bring transparency to government, for example by leaking information to wikileaks, or if they're using lawsuits and drafting legislation, then yes.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #718 - February 10, 2017, 10:39 PM

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/g00/news/nationworld/politics/ct-trump-travel-ban-ruling-20170209-story.html?i10c.referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2F

    Annnnnd....it's been struck down again.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #719 - February 10, 2017, 11:55 PM

    This doesn't look good though:

    Federal agents conduct immigration enforcement raids in at least six states
    Quote
    Advocates from United We Dream, the Center for Community Change and Make the Road said on a Friday conference call with reporters that they believed hundreds to have been detained, including undocumented immigrants who had no prior criminal record. They said some had been deported immediately.

    “We cannot understate the level of panic and terror that is running through many immigrant communities,” said Walter Barrientos, of Make the Road in New York City.

    ICE agents had raided homes, and were “not just detaining individuals they are looking for ... but in fact, taking anyone else in the community, or in these homes who does not have immigration status at the moment, or who is not able to prove citizenship,” Barrientos said.

    In some cities, activists said that ICE had set up roadside or neighborhood checkpoints, where ICE agents, often in unmarked cars, appeared to be asking people at random for proof of citizenship or identification.

  • Previous page 1 ... 22 23 2425 26 ... 30 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »