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 Topic: Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America

 (Read 138401 times)
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  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #90 - June 18, 2016, 06:48 PM

    I can't speak for the socio-political factors in other countries that shape voting behaviour but, as someone who teaches A-Level politics, unless there is an established, self-reinforcing social mechanism that segregates society into distinct groups then you will observe ideological convergence as an organic process in which the 'end of ideology' takes place and is replaced by a shift towards issue-based politics' in which the short-term issues of the day will be voted upon rather than exclusively based upon partisan-alignment. This is what we have witnessed in the UK which a shift towards the centre for the two main parties, hich has allowed other 'minority' parties to come to the fore. It is almost inevitable for ideologies to shift and merge given that the major parties must try to appeal as many potential voters as possible resulting in 'big tent' policies of 'catch-all parties'. In the USA the electoral college system means that the Republicans and Democrats can focus on a few states to secure the 270+ electors it needs to secure victory in the election.


    This is your answer to why US is stuck with Two party system I suppose.

    Quote
    Representative democracy is not flawed nor is it inherently corrupt as it is the means by which large populations of people who are not experts in governance are able to elect representatives on their behalf on a multi-year cycle. The system by which the selection of candidates takes place can be flawed but not the principle of representative democracy itself

    .

    In theory,it sounds perfect but it hasn't worked for the good of large population in many states that practices it. Which means it's flawed system to use in governing those states unless we are arguing on semantics which I'm not too keen to go on.

    Quote
    In the US there is the issue of party finance and campaigning. There are examples of individuals int he past who gained some traction standing as independents but failed to  secure the support necessary. Jesse Ventura as a governor comes to mind. There are numerous independent parties in America and their supporters are numerous but enough when compared to the big to parties. Unless you modify your constitution o implement a proportionally representative system then independents will not have much of an influence. Still, you need public votes to secure victory. Do the independent parties appeal to enough voters or do the two main political parties off enough simplified diversity to appeal to the apathetic American voter who will return to business as usual once the election party season is over?


    I don't disagree with what you said here and overall  you have explained the reasons why Representative democracy is not a reliable political system to use in governing a state Tongue


    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #91 - June 18, 2016, 08:49 PM

    Ok Cato, you start the revolution and I'll point and laugh.

    Representative democracy is more of a principle then a system. For example democracy is letting people have a say.

    Direct democracy is letting people vote on most if not all issues as was the case in Ancient Athens and to a limited degree in modern day Switzerland.

    Representative democracy is the idea that we elect representatives to make those decisions on our behalf as in the UK, and France.

    Within the democratic framework there are electoral systems that have their advantages and disadvantages. In Britain we have the majoritarian FPTP system similar to the US but within that the two are very different in that you have the electoral college system for America and in Britain it's one MP equals one seat in the House of Commons.

    The problem doesn't necessarily need to be with the system either as it's the people who vote. The issue is more nuanced then you let on. There are remedies: books.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #92 - June 18, 2016, 09:29 PM

    You are telling me something that I already know only that I choose not to believe in the system or "principle" or whatever.You are also speaking of nuances when you just said that the problem lies with the people who vote which I find it to be simplistic








    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #93 - June 18, 2016, 10:12 PM

    Don't you get tired of sounding stupid like this? Be rational.


    So anyone with different view sounds stupid to you.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #94 - June 18, 2016, 11:40 PM

    Direct democracy is letting people vote on most if not all issues as was the case in Ancient Athens and to a limited degree in modern day Switzerland.


    How the hell is this not everywhere by now?

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #95 - June 19, 2016, 02:02 AM

    So anyone with different view sounds stupid to you.


    Actually, anyone insulting an entire population of people sounds stupid to me.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #96 - June 19, 2016, 02:02 AM

    How the hell is this not everywhere by now?


    Yeah, we have internet. It ought to be easy.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #97 - June 19, 2016, 04:51 AM

    How the hell is this not everywhere by now?


    Simply because it is an impractical system of governance for large modern democracies as it a) is not economically viable as voting procedures cost a lot of money b) low voter turnout at referendums is indicative of low public interest c) it would slow the legislative process down if decisions had to be made via vote of the entire voting age populace d) it reduces the accountability of the elected e) the populace are not experts on public matters relating to science, medicine, economy or foreign relations no matter how many blog posts they write e) issues of representativeness would still be an issue f) the 'tyranny of the majority' would prevail and may lead to the populace voting for measures that do not serve the interests of minority groups.

    There are more reasons you could possibly think of. Imagine any problems that could result from 'should abortion be made legal?' or similar types of legislation.  I don't want that to be subject to a popular vote but rather governed by rational debate by experts in the related fields e.g. psychologists, medical professionals and various advocacy groups. 

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #98 - June 19, 2016, 05:08 AM

    And then there is the problem, that the US are using the British electoral system.

    It is very efficient at keeping "smaller" parties out and creating a misrepresentative democracy.
    You can have theoretically have 45% of the voters and not a single member of parliament.

    This also leads to a two-party system, because only the two largest parties are likly to have any representation.


    .
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #99 - June 19, 2016, 05:08 AM

    You are telling me something that I already know only that I choose not to believe in the system or "principle" or whatever.You are also speaking of nuances when you just said that the problem lies with the people who vote which I find it to be simplistic


    It's entirely irrelevant if you 'believe' in a system or choose not to. That's what the system is. That's the system that governs your country.

    Please quote me rather than make silly statements. If you read the statementsI wrote
    Quote
    The problem doesn't necessarily need to be with the system either as it's the people who vote.

     

    The dominance of the two-party system is the result of who people vote for and not just the 'system'. People have access to greater source of information and 'behind-the-scenes' knowledge than ever before and more than likely the number of people voting is based on the rational-choice model (what's in my overall interests both short and long-term) that determines their behaviour come election time. The two parties have a proven track record in almost all fields of governance, expertise, financing, international reputation, powerful lobby groups, pressure and advocacy groups and offer a diverse range of candidates come the primaries as well as diversity of opinion across a range of hot topic' issues. It's mo wonder that people CHOOSE to vote for one of the two big parties. There are no gun point election booths.

    It's as if you expect that if people create a political party then automatically that party should be part of the governing body. No. That's not how elections work or how any democracy works. The failure of any other party to make a big impression in Washington is because they fail to convince large populations of the states to vote for them. This coupled with the electoral college 'winner takes all' system is the reason why we have a two-party dominant system and not because of whatever it is you're suggesting.

    Democracy is not the tyranny of what you want it to be but the will of the people tempered by an elected executive and legislative body.

    Britain has evolved from a two-party dominant system to a multi-party system because of a collapse in inflexible ideology driven politics, the dilution of the class-system via social mobility amongst other things and greater transparency on political issues/manifestos etc. Democracy has never been better. Stop moaning.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #100 - June 19, 2016, 05:14 AM

    Quote
    The dominance of the two-party system is the result of who people vote for and not just the 'system'.


    I disagree.
    It is very much an effect of "the system", because this particular electoral system works efficiently to keep smaller groups out of influence.

    If you do not vote for one of the to big parties, your vote is likely to be worthless.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #101 - June 19, 2016, 05:15 AM

    And then there is the problem, that the US are using the British electoral system.

    It is very efficient at keeping "smaller" parties out and creating a misrepresentative democracy.
    You can have theoretically have 45% of the voters and not a single member of parliament.
    .


    In the UK you have a simply plurality majoritarian system. The person with the most votes wins. For example in a Northern Ireland seat the SDLP achieved one MP based on 25% or so votes.  The example you have provided doesn't make sense of 45% of voters. If that were the case that means they would have secured some seats thus resulting in some MPs. Even UKIP with it's 12.6% of votes managed one MP.

     In an absolute majority system you need over 50% to win which results in quota systems or thresholds being introduced.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #102 - June 19, 2016, 05:20 AM

    I disagree.
    It is very much an effect of "the system", because this particular electoral system works efficiently to keep smaller groups out of influence.

    If you do not vote for one of the to big parties, your vote is likely to be worthless.


    I don't disagree with that and I don't see ho what I've written contradicts your statement.

    Votes are 'worthless' because your party that you voted for does not represent the will of the people. Your vote represents your interests. The government represents the interest of the people and ho the majority in particular states voted for. As brutal as that is, and as exclusionary that may be to minority parties, that's the problem with BOTH the electoral college and the ideal of the majority vote.

    Could you show me any evidence that with an alternative proportional electoral system that minority parties - based on the popular vote - would gain seats in the HoR. I'm genuinely interested as it should be proposed as the electoral college system - as I've stated - is unfair. But this would not in in itself remove the problem of a to-party system. 

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #103 - June 19, 2016, 06:14 AM

    Edit; Yeah,this will be a waste of time. I will be off as the clueless one.





    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #104 - June 19, 2016, 06:18 AM

    Britain has a system quite similar to the US, but if you look at "the rest of Europe" the alternative works quite well (technically at least. It does not change the fact, that people are people and vote for people).

    In your example, the problem is clearly illustrated  by "even the UKIP with only 12 % got a representative".
    Whether I like them or not does not matter, democracy-wise, they should have had 12% of the seats.

    Look at "the rest of Europe" and you will see the proportional representation of minority parties.
    And with more than two parties, the minority parties will often have the deciding vote, giving them real influence.



    The US/British system was great when the primary quest was to have regional representatives. But when you try to make national politics it is not as good.

    That the House of Lords still exists is absolutely crazy IMHO.
    It is a black joke in a modern democracy, even with the reforms made and proposed.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #105 - June 19, 2016, 04:27 PM

    Edit; Yeah,this will be a waste of time. I will be off as the clueless one.


    Goodbye. Here's some information for you to read up on the evolving anture of the US political system: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carl-nettleton/could-the-us-becoming-a-m_b_9995102.html

    Quote
    In your example, the problem is clearly illustrated  by "even the UKIP with only 12 % got a representative".
    Whether I like them or not does not matter, democracy-wise, they should have had 12% of the seats.


    But then that will lead to areas in which political parties focus almost exclusively on large populations in order to acquire more seats. For example, imagine if UKIP concentrated ALL their efforts in three of the largest cities in Britain that are white, depressed and working class and managed to get 10% of the popular votes as a result (but mostly because they concentrated on the three large cities). That equates to 10% of the seats in the House of Commons meaning they will have 36 MPs from 10% of the popular vote. This is disproportionate of the entire UK population and the party will only truly represent those three cities and will count on the safe seats. That power bloc they create may be enough to create a stagnant legislative system.

    The great thing about our democracy is that the political parties are almost forced to appeal to a wider group of people and that no area or region dominates. If it was based on truly the popular vote then the Conservatives (or whichever party dominated the South) would almost certainly win each time. This would in fact lead to over-representation of the smaller parties. There's also the issue of coalition governments being formed which - depending upon the parties involved - can lead to gridlock in terms of policy formation and factionalism thus reducing the amount of accountability as there are 'too many cooks in the kitchen'.

    I would favour a hybrid PR system to iron out the wrinkles of out current system. I agree with you that our second chamber must be reformed. Something the Blairite government failed to deliver on. 

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #106 - June 19, 2016, 04:53 PM

    But they would still proportionally represent that number of people, right?

    What you actually say is, that a white middle class urban citizen should count less than a farmer?

    There is a middle road (among other places used in the Danish system) where a number of seats are tied to electoral districts, exactly with the purpose of avoiding, that the capitol can run the show on its own.

    Making a fair electoral system is not an uncomplicated task.
    D'Hondt is pretty good :
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27Hondt_method
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #107 - June 19, 2016, 05:00 PM

    The D'Hondt methodology is not perfect either as it is overly complicated, lengthy, costly and results in a two-tiered system. The system is used in the STV system (I think).

    There is a middle road - but it's ineffective. What we have now is very effective and better than the alternatives. Maintaining the constituency-MP link is the best thing about the FPTP system we employ.  Smaller parties still have a say and with the wide range of views on offer it is unnecessary to change it. In fact the AV referendum demonstrates that people are more than happy with the current system.

    I've got nothing against farmers.


    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #108 - June 20, 2016, 01:52 AM

    Actually, anyone insulting an entire population of people sounds stupid to me.


    No, I don't hate islam or muslims.
    I just hate only those guys/girls in islam, that are doing violent things and oppressing others.

    I wish that someday muslims , will again work wonders in science and technolog just like they were doing in Golden age of islam under Abbasid Caliphate.

    My problem is with Mullahs and Mullies.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #109 - June 20, 2016, 02:00 AM

    No, I don't hate islam or muslims.
    Quote
    cellphone2016  that is Good., what is there to hate? Islam is a religious concept as any other religions that is based on silly books
    Quote
    I just hate only those guys/girls in islam, that are doing violent things and oppressing others.

    what? you hate guys/girls?  why??  No.. wrong words.. you don't call them guys/girls in islam,.. you call them., BRUTAL BABOONS., BRUTAL ROGUES OF ISLAM..  
    Quote
    I wish that someday muslims , will again work wonders in science and technolog just like they were doing in Golden age of islam under Abbasid Caliphate.

    well they will., but there was NO GOLDEN GOOSE OF SCIENCE UNDER ISLAM., whatever science is done in Islam It was IN-SPITE OF ISLAM not due to Islam.
    Quote
    My problem is with Mullahs and Mullies.

    well I don't care about those Mullahs and Mullies as long as they are harmless and they don't open their mouths ...and and they are under burkhas  along with that Amrikee  DUMP.. Donald Duck



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #110 - June 20, 2016, 02:25 AM

    @Jedi:

    The American two-party system is broken, and calling the electoral college system a part of "democracy" would be farcical.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #111 - June 20, 2016, 05:20 PM

    Quote
    @Jedi:

    The American two-party system is broken, and calling the electoral college system a part of "democracy" would be farcical.


    My apologies, but could you reconstruct that statement into a logical argument? What is your point or are these just incoherent ramblings?

    Asbie, you really do strike me as someone who has arrived late to the party and is complaining that all the food and drinks are gone. The two-party system is not 'broken' as there is no criteria you present to evaluate its 'brokeness' and the electoral college system is a part of the American democratic system.  If you bothered to read my previous posts I explain, ever so briefly, why the two-party system exists and my discussion relating to the electoral college is related to it's disproportionate nature and how it somewhat undermines the democratic enterprise.

    Please continue...

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #112 - June 20, 2016, 07:57 PM

    I can't really be bothered Jedi, so you win.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #113 - June 21, 2016, 12:30 PM

    Look at "the rest of Europe" and you will see the proportional representation of minority parties.
    And with more than two parties, the minority parties will often have the deciding vote, giving them real influence.


    This. I don't want to be stuck with 2 parties which don't want to reform.

    There's also the issue of coalition governments being formed which - depending upon the parties involved - can lead to gridlock in terms of policy formation and factionalism thus reducing the amount of accountability as there are 'too many cooks in the kitchen'.


    I prefer coalitions (YES, with all the problems associated with them) than the UK/USA system.


  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #114 - July 16, 2016, 02:28 AM

    Hmmm., Dump selects some guy as his running vice presidential mate and that guy says "Trump is offensive and unconstitutional"

    Quote
    Trump's vice-president pick contradicts him over Muslim ban issue

    WASHINGTON: Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump has announced Indiana state's governor Mike Pence as his vice presidential running mate.

    Trump's December 2015 announcement, which had called for a ban on Muslims, leaves everyone wondering how Pence will defend his benefactor's policies now as his second-in-command.

    "Calls to ban Muslims from entering the US are offensive and unconstitutional", Pence had tweeted on December 8, 2015, the very day Donald Trump had proposed that US should bar all Muslims from entering the country in the wake of the terrorist attack that killed 14 Americans in California on December 2.

    what is this GOOD COP BAD COP GAME???

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #115 - July 16, 2016, 09:54 PM

    I actually suggested a farce from the beginning. Let us hope it be so.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #116 - July 16, 2016, 10:18 PM

    Trump actually ties with Hillary?

    Crazy. Who'd expected this to happen...
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #117 - July 17, 2016, 10:25 PM

    Trump actually ties with Hillary?

    No. I was going to add, "Fear not", but that would also not be true.



    Statistics from realclearpolitics
    I don't know if that's the best source out there though.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #118 - July 17, 2016, 11:19 PM

    So a 4% difference.... Do you think it'll still be a slam dunk? I seriously didn't think Trump would make it THIS far.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #119 - July 18, 2016, 12:17 AM

    So a 4% difference.... Do you think it'll still be a slam dunk?

    It can change fast. What these statistics isn't showing is that Jill Stein just has had a big cash inflow to her campaign after Sanders endorsed Clinton. On the other hand Trump seem to have lost votes to Johnson/Libertarians so the small parties may not have that big of an impact in the end. I don't know how sensitive the US election will be to what happens in Europe with the immigration crisis and terror attacks but it will probably matter a whole lot.
    I think Clinton will win in the end but before that happens it'll be a bit of a rumble.

    Quote
    I seriously didn't think Trump would make it THIS far.

    Neither did I in the beginning but I quickly changed my mind.
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