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Theme Changer

 Topic: Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America

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  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #210 - November 10, 2016, 04:39 AM

    Its all very depressing.  Still, maybe Trump won't be so bad as we think. Most politicians don't live up to their election promises, hopefully Trump won't either.


    He may con his voters by not fulfilling his promises. That's the joke I'm anticipating for Grin

    Voters can easily be swayed by telling them what they like to hear and I wouldn't blame Trump for that just for his ulterior motives if he reneges on most of the things he promised. Obama lied his way into White House too


    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #211 - November 10, 2016, 06:40 AM

    However difficult it is for a president to pass controversial laws, there's no denying that he sets direction, tone, leadership, and then invariably the reaction to all of this.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/donald-trump-wins-first-12-hours-muslim-kkk-russia-canadia-immigration-al-qaeda-mexico-palestine-a7408091.html

    And to compare the faults of this vile man to those of either Obama or Clinton, gives him the credibility that he will never earn. Obama, and particularly Clinton, are not perfect. But this is a whole new level of fucked up; and it's hard for me to currently lose sight of that.

    Hi
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #212 - November 10, 2016, 06:50 AM

    The Guardian view on President-elect Donald Trump: a dark day for the world

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/09/the-guardian-view-on-president-elect-donald-trump-a-dark-day-for-the-world?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_WhatsApp

    Hi
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #213 - November 10, 2016, 11:40 AM

    Honestly,I don't see any differences between Trump and Clinton. An unapologetic racist bigot and, a pseudo progressive neoliberal war hawk. No lesser evil in this. We are screwed either way


    For me, it's not as much about the candidates themselves but about behavior their rhetoric normalizes. If you follow Clinton's "pseudo-progressive" rhetoric through, eventually you end up scrutinizing and criticising the nastier things she has done by a certain standard.

    Trump's rhetoric, on the other hand, unabashedly brings out the absolute worst in a society. With those views now legitimized on a national social scale, literally the worst parts of human nature have been normalized.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #214 - November 10, 2016, 12:02 PM

    Lyndon B Johnson, the 36th president, literally pulled his dick out as an argument when questioned on his foreign policy decisions. Andrew Jackson, the 7th president, was the mastermind of the Trail of Tears and also participated in illegal lethal duels. Ronald Reagan got famous as a movie star.

    Nixon did the shit that got him impeached. Most of our presidents had affairs. Jefferson had sex with his slave, who was his wife's half sister, a LOT. Bush was an idiot. Point is, Trump is not the only ill-informed asshole to get the job. He's an ill-informed asshole, but it's not the end of the world and America's problems go back a lot further in time than his candidacy.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #215 - November 10, 2016, 01:37 PM

    Yes, and for the overwhelmingly vast majority of the time you describe above, conditions for minorities and marginalized people in this country were deplorable. Much of the electorate might not have had much reason to be concerned at that point because, so long as you fit the demographic profile these politicians catered to, things were pretty sweet for you and your family.

    There was a social contract of sorts between the capitalist elite and the white working class for much of this country’s history, and they were assured that they were better. As that contract has deteriorated recently, it’s saddening to see them falling for the snake oil Trump is selling. He’s tapping into something very unsettling that, granted, has always existed in American society - and he is falsely linking it to economic success.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #216 - November 10, 2016, 01:51 PM

    Tom Barrack, a close friend of Trump is doing the round of morning shows :
    Quote
    Tom Barrack: President Trump is 'going to build a wall of understanding'
    Washington (CNN)Donald Trump's longtime friend and fundraiser shared Wednesday he envisions a warm and humble Donald Trump as president, bearing little resemblance to the often times harsh and combative candidate many people became acquainted with on the campaign trail.

    "His first objective right now is to to build a bridge to this divide," businessman Tom Barrack told CNN's Erin Burnett on "Erin Burnett OutFront." "Reach out to the other side, unite this country and then create an agenda, so all these things that people are afraid of -- what wall is he going to build, he's going to build a wall of understanding. Right? This is America, you can't be a dictator."
    Barrack explained that Trump will have to govern more like the man who delivered a gracious acceptance speech than the candidate who said he would put Democratic rival Hillary Clinton in jail.
    "What's happening is you're moving from 'Candidate Trump' to 'President Trump,' and I analogize it to 'Candidate Trump' was like a UFC Fighter in the middle of an octagon and he was a martial artist using every tool that he could to convey a message," he said. "And I think last night you saw the real Donald Trump: humbled, kind, compassionate, with a simple agenda -- and the agenda is to heal the divide."

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/09/politics/tom-barrack-president-trump-candidate-trump/
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #217 - November 10, 2016, 01:54 PM



    USA and Clinton supports jihadis at this momment in Syria. Worse than that is even for Trump hard to do.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #218 - November 10, 2016, 03:43 PM

    Tom Barrack, a close friend of Trump is doing the round of morning shows :http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/09/politics/tom-barrack-president-trump-candidate-trump/



    I've seen him mellow out and talk a little bit more sensibly before, during the campaign, and even come across ststesmanlike. It wasn't at all natural for him, which is why it lasted a only few days before he reverted to himself. First sign of antagonism and opposition set him off again that time. And I doubt if he'll maintain the current persona for long.

    Hi
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #219 - November 10, 2016, 03:52 PM

    Musivore said:
     
    Quote
    First sign of antagonism and opposition set him off again that time. And I doubt if he'll maintain the current persona for long.


    ITA.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #220 - November 10, 2016, 04:09 PM

    Here's my post on why I'm not afraid of a Trump presidency in regards to LGBT rights, but most of it applies to immigration too. Basically, the president can't pass laws. The congress can't pass just any law they want, either; they can propose one, but it can be struck down by the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court would almost 100% certainly rule it unconstitutional to ban immigrants and especially refugees, probably on the basis of the "no religious test" clause or the "prohibiting the free exercise of a religion" clause. So then Trump and the Congress would need to pass a constitutional amendment, which requires 2/3 of the congress AND it needs to be ratified by 38 states (3/4 majority), and there's no way they could do that.

    https://www.facebook.com/SMukhamadova/posts/1107459712635545


    He gets to nominate the next Justice in a Republican majority government. He can easily pick someone that is an outspoken critic of same-sex marriage and LGBT legal rights. There have been immigration bans before. During the Gold Rush era of the 1860s, and on, Chinese immigration was high for a number of reasons. In the 1880s the Chinese Exclusion Act was passes to prevent Chinese immigration for the purpose of working in this industry. However the wording of the Act could also be used in way to bar all immigration which happened. The no religious test clause is for government employment not immigration. The free exercise of religion is not about immigration. Restricting Muslim immigration does not prohibit anyone for practicing their religion, immigrants nor citizens. Sorry but the argument is flawed as ideological restrictions are legal and have never been overturned by SCOTUS.

    Trump is targeting an ideology, political Islam, as a danger. The keyword here is political. This label can have board applications as one can lump any Muslim group that has the goals of creating political change by legal methods with those that use violence and other illegal methods. It could include people that want Sharia civic courts. Islam, and therefore all Muslims, fall under scrutiny as one must be a Muslim, dissident or a liar to be a member of such groups. As these groups have existed in many forms within Muslim nations from the national level to terrorism, and have existed for centuries, one can easily infer that Muslim immigrants are more likely to be a member of one of these groups than any other religious groups. This is like the Mccarthyism in which nationality is used as an indication of one's political view points. This time the line between religious identification, nationality and political views are blurred to a point anyone can read what they want into it. Hate Muslims? Trump is banned Muslims. Hate political Islam? Trump is banning those that support it? Hate terrorism? Trump is banning those that support and use it. You can literally insert any name or place that has Muslims that has some sort of issue and it fits the bill. It can work for Europe as well due to the rhetoric, and issues, with radicalization and supposed Islamification.



  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #221 - November 10, 2016, 04:11 PM

    Democracy!  Cheesy


    No, the electoral college. There's a difference.

    Hitler has more claim to election via democratic process than either Trump or George W.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #222 - November 10, 2016, 04:18 PM

    For me, it's not as much about the candidates themselves but about behavior their rhetoric normalizes. If you follow Clinton's "pseudo-progressive" rhetoric through, eventually you end up scrutinizing and criticising the nastier things she has done by a certain standard.

    Trump's rhetoric, on the other hand, unabashedly brings out the absolute worst in a society. With those views now legitimized on a national social scale, literally the worst parts of human nature have been normalized.


    +1

    I don't think Trump can enact all the shit he wants too. It's too anti-establishment for even a GOP Congress (shudders to think of it) to stomach. However, racist, misogynist, nativist thought will now be heard a lot more, and acted upon, in the ugly and frightening ways that they are.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #223 - November 10, 2016, 04:22 PM

    The Supreme Court Justice he nominates will be the real lasting legacy of his presidency, as far as I can tell. And court balance has a long lasting impact for the direction of the nation, that even periodic elections can rarely match.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #224 - November 10, 2016, 05:38 PM

    In addition to the Supreme Court, Obama's hard won legislative achievements may be undone.   

    That is why he worked so hard on Clinton's behalf.    But many of those who came out for him in 2012, couldn't hold their noses and support him in this.  Unlike them, enough Repubs, who found Trump totally repugnant, did. 

    Quote
    As a conservative, I also hope Republicans repeal the Dodd-Frank financial oversight legislation; the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, which loosened time limits for bringing workplace discrimination suits; and the Affordable Care Act.

    this from a moderate R who didn't support DT http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/opinion/erick-erickson-eating-crow-on-donald-trump.html?ribbon-ad-idx=2&rref=opinion&module=Ribbon&version=context&region=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&pgtype=article

     I liked this comment by someone in another forum:
    Quote
    This thing about her failing to energize is driving me crazy
    give me a break @voters who always need to be EXCITED and energized and find perfect unicorns of fulfillment to actually do anything! get off your asses and just go vote, regardless of whether clinton is orgasmic or charismatic or whatever. turn out was SO low for her compared to 2012 for obama because obama is inspiring and magical etc (while largely performing exactly like a neolib clinton in office) but didnt get off their tuffs to go vote for hillary because she didn’t light their fire, or worse, vote for gary f’ing johnson who is basically a baked potato in human form. great, thanks, now we have trump.
    I live in philadelphia. in 2012 Obama got 3.2 million votes to Romney’s 2.6m and this year Clinton got 2.8 to Trump’s 2.9. that’s 500,000 FEWER people who turned out to vote for what was billed as essentially obama’s 3rd term and because lazy people werent jazzed up, we ended up with a tiny margin by which she was beat in this state. it’s infuriating.


    Remember how Gore was wooden etc, but GW was relatable ?
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #225 - November 10, 2016, 06:40 PM

    For anyone, like me, who is still trying to make sense of the madness:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/donald-trump-how-did-he-win-biggest-myths-debunked-economics-values-whites-votes-a7409576.html

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-how-she-lost-he-won-us-election-2016-turnout-low-a7408941.html


    Hi
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #226 - November 10, 2016, 08:53 PM

    No, the electoral college. There's a difference.

    Hitler has more claim to election via democratic process than either Trump or George W.


    Exactly. And the electoral college was designed in part to protect the interests of slave states - something it is still doing.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #227 - November 10, 2016, 10:49 PM

    Are Southern states over-represented? Is the number of electoral seats that a state has, proportional roughly with its population?

    Hi
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #228 - November 11, 2016, 12:52 AM

    Small, mostly rural states in "white America" are overrepresented in proportion to their population. Big states, with large population centers, like California, New York, Texas, are underrepresented in proportion to their population.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #229 - November 11, 2016, 12:57 AM

    The crazy thing about this electoral college nonsense, and this was in contrast to what even I expected, is that Trump despite losing the popular vote, won the Electoral college fairly comfortably. He could have lost either Pennsylvania or Ohio and still would have come out as president elect. It's some crazy shit.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #230 - November 11, 2016, 02:10 AM

    Maybe we could do away with it. There ought to be some process we can participate in that will result in the electoral college becoming obsolete.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #231 - November 11, 2016, 03:03 AM

    Constitutional amendment. Involves Congress and State Legislatures.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #232 - November 11, 2016, 09:22 AM

    I read a good article about how it's natural for us to mourn but that it's time to fight and make our voices heard.

    While I agree with the premise of the article and will do my bit to keep people informed, it's hard to have faith in them. Here in the UK our Tory government is scrapping away our rights one by one and people are either oblivious or they don't care. I have always been proud of the National Health Service that they are now privatising. The population bitches and moans yet fails to pinpoint the blame where it belongs. They are doing their utmost to scrap the Human Rights Act, they are trying to privatise child protection services, they are making welfare cuts to the poor and disabled, yet people sit around moaning about "immigrants" and "benefit scroungers".

    Trump's first 100 day plan sounds like an epic disaster, but how many people will stand up to him?
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #233 - November 11, 2016, 10:26 AM

    Trump's first 100 day plan sounds like an epic disaster, but how many people will stand up to him?

    This was posted yesterday on another forum I follow, so it looks like there is some reaction:
    Quote
    First, this will be short since I'm on a short break at work. So sorry for the sloppiness. And this happened around 10:15 a.m.

    But I have to repeat The Who: "The kids are alright!"

    I work, teaching EFL/ESL in San Francisco's Financial District, along Montgomery Street a.k.a. "Wall Street West" where banks like Wells Fargo and Bank of America were founded, and thousand and thousands of kids just marched down the street. It looked like all the city's high schools cleared out because the procession of quickly and spiritedly marching students took several city blocks.

    Office workers flooded out of high-rises and cheered the youth on. Food workers came out of restaurants with massive pans and metal ladles to beat a rhythm as they celebrated the kids too. Same with the ubiquitous construction workers. Granted 85% of the city voted the traditional Democratic Party line for political hack Hillary, but just the same it was inspiring. Like a massive street party.

    Gotta go back to work, but one of my left-liberal co-workers just said "we should all do a general strike so we can go out and join the kids." Now that's the spirit!


    There's a report here: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-protest-trump-20161109-story.html

    On the other hand there's this response from the AFL-CIO, the US equivalent of the TUC:

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/afl-cios-trumka-ready-to-work-with-trump/article/2607017
    Quote
    AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka offered a tentative olive branch to President-elect Donald Trump Wednesday, saying that the nation's largest labor federation was willing to try to meet him part way on economic policy issues.

    Trumka had been one of Trump's harshest critics during the campaign, repeatedly calling him a "racist" and mobilizing union support on behalf of Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton.

    In a statement emailed to reporters, Trumka said his organization accepted the outcome of the election and offered Trump "our congratulations." He said organized labor was obliged to try to work with Trump for the good of the nation.

    "Ultimately, the fundamental duty of America's president, symbolized by swearing to uphold our Constitution, is to protect and preserve our democracy and the institutions that make it real. We hope to work with President-elect Trump to help him carry out this solemn responsibility. Regardless, America's labor movement will protect our democracy and safeguard the most vulnerable among us," Trumka said.

    He added that election was a referendum "on trade, on restoring manufacturing, on reviving our communities. We will work to make many of those promises a reality. If he is willing to work with us, consistent with our values, we are ready to work with him."

  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #234 - November 11, 2016, 11:04 AM

    Kenan Malik - How America got Trumped
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #235 - November 11, 2016, 11:20 AM

    This was posted yesterday on another forum I follow, so it looks like there is some reaction:
    There's a report here: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-protest-trump-20161109-story.html

    On the other hand there's this response from the AFL-CIO, the US equivalent of the TUC:

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/afl-cios-trumka-ready-to-work-with-trump/article/2607017


    That is inspiring Smiley

    Of course, protests won't change the results but they at least show opposition to the damage that Trump and his supporters are trying to cause, and that their attempts to spread hatred and division shouldn't be normalised.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #236 - November 11, 2016, 11:27 AM



    Thanks, this is a much better analysis than "people were getting fed up with leftist over-sensitivity".
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #237 - November 11, 2016, 04:09 PM

    In reference to the original discussion at hand; hyperbolé. Nothing more; nothing less. America has always been discriminatory against Muslims and that won't change. But it may not necessarily get worse either; not that Muslims make it easy for themselves anyway.

    The statement about banning Muslims has already been removed I heard anyway:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-president-election-muslim-ban-immigrants-website-statement-removed-a7408466.html

  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #238 - November 11, 2016, 06:43 PM

    No, the electoral college. There's a difference.


    Which is democracy of the states as per the American systems. The people still vote but there is not national popular vote. Their votes are within their state. The state then votes according to it's population, usually.

    Quote
    Hitler has more claim to election via democratic process than either Trump or George W.


    Which is a parliament system.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #239 - November 11, 2016, 07:07 PM

    Are Southern states over-represented? Is the number of electoral seats that a state has, proportional roughly with its population?


    Yes. The southern states had a massive slave population that outnumbered the voting population of mostly White males. The Northern states had a small slave population compared to the amount of people that could vote. The North also had a larger population is general. America's system was developed as a union of nation-states. States were not administration divisions created at the federal level. The federal administration was a creation of the nation-states. In this light the states were to have an equal status in principle. Population and economic power were ignored for the most part as the southern states were at the bottom of this list. This all changed during the Civil War and after as the federal government took over internal policy between states. The nation-states federation policy was never dropped although states become more or less administrative divisions.

    If you compare the population to vote ratio you will notice that many voters within different states have less or more voting power than other states due to the electorate collage. IE My vote could be worth more than your vote. The electorate system itself is an "all in" stance. So if a state had a close race but say democratic win the state is a democratic rather than splitting it's electorate votes based on the popular vote. Hence why some states are always D or R and battleground states are a focus.
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