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 Topic: Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America

 (Read 145117 times)
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  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #660 - February 04, 2017, 12:10 PM

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38864253
    Quote
    A US judge in Seattle has issued a temporary nationwide block on President Donald Trump's ban on travellers from seven mainly Muslim nations. Federal Judge James Robart ruled against government lawyers' claims that US states did not have the standing to challenge Mr Trump's executive order. Last week's order has led to protests and confusion at US airports. Customs officials have told US airlines that they can resume boarding banned travellers while a legal case is heard. Gulf carrier Qatar Airways told Reuters news agency it would start accepting all passengers with valid travel documents. The administration, however, could again block them if it were to win an emergency stay. The justice department says it will appeal against the Seattle ruling.
    ....

  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #661 - February 04, 2017, 12:14 PM

    Travel ban in disarray as airlines told they can take on barred passengers – reports
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #662 - February 04, 2017, 12:35 PM

    A clash of the uncivilised: Trump, Muslim profiling and the far-right's assault
    Quote from: Maryam Namazie
    Donald Trump’s suspension of new refugee admissions for 120 days and the barring of nationals from Iraq, Iran, Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Libya and Somalia for 90 days (likely to be extended) is fundamentally about a far-Right restructuring of US society under the guise of “stopping terrorism” and defending “western civilisation” whilst hiding behind “acceptable” bigotry against migrants and Muslims.

    It’s similar to the rise of Islamism and its far-Right restructuring of many societies in the Middle East and elsewhere under the guise of stopping “imperialism” and defending “Islamic civilisation” whilst hiding behind the industry of offence and “Islamophobia”.

    Despite its packaging of counter-terrorism and border protection, the rise of far-Right politics is part and parcel of the well-wrought assault on the fundamental rights of people in the US and Europe where policies imposed on the “other” are now being openly imposed right here at home.

    The assault on women’s and reproductive rights, refugee rights, citizenship rights, welfare, health services, environment, education, legal aid, human rights, freedom of expression, freedom of the press, freedoms to strike and organisation… as well as the increasing privatisation and commercialisation of – well just about everything – are the real stories here.

    The aims of the Islamists, Trump and Brexit are to dismantle citizenship rights, further lower living standards, and impose additional austerity measures whilst removing remaining constraints on capitalism. The sacred (be it religion, national borders, identity or culture) is used to manage and control dissent, vilify and eventually criminalise those deemed different.

    As is always the case, the first lines of attack are women and the most vulnerable in society.

    The advance of the far-Right has depended in large part on the normalisation of their narrative, which includes cultural relativism; homogenisation of entire communities and societies;  limiting free expression; legitimising violence; feigning persecution; blaming the victim; reliance on religion, misogyny, homophobia and anti-Semitism; criminalisation of the other; subversion of the truth; use of threats and scaremongering; and identity politics.

    The answer to this calamity is not strengthening one far-Right over the other.

    Wearing hijabs at protests or continuing to have the Muslim Council of Britain or Linda Sarsour as the “authentic” representatives of the fight-back plays into the Islamist narrative just as defending Muslim profiling, calling for the prioritisation of Christian refugees and promoting Trump or Brexit as the “authentic” voice of the disillusioned plays into the hands of the Christian-Right.

    Siding with either legitimises the subversion of truth and the politics of hate and fear. It helps them, wittingly or unwittingly, in their clash of the uncivilised at the expense of us all, across borders and boundaries, real or imagined.

    The principled response to the rise of the far-Right and regressive identity politics has to be one that defends humanity – all of it – irrespective of beliefs, immigration status, race, gender, nationality and sexuality.

    Defending the equal rights of those who do not think or look like you, an insistence on universalism, an unequivocal defence of secularism and civil rights as well as welfare before profit are important starting points. The magnificent protests at US airports in support of migrants and refugees are a great case in point.

    Today, more than ever, we need a politics that puts truth and the human being at the centre – not religion, nationality, race, gender or migration status.

    A politics that starts and ends with our common humanity.

    A politics that breaks, not builds, walls.
    ....

  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #663 - February 04, 2017, 05:39 PM

    Thoughts on the Shepard Fairey poster and hijab glorification
    Quote from: Nice Mangos
    As a woman who grew up under Sharia in Saudi Arabia, I cannot help but resist the glorification of the tools of my oppression.

    As much as I loathe Trump, and the chaos he's creating, as much as I stand in solidarity with Muslims at this time....as much as I am personally affected by discrimination against Muslims myself...I cannot sit back and watch conservative Islam be championed in this complex and toxic political climate.

    I ask my fellow critics of religion to be particularly cautious at this time not to feed into far right narratives of hate.... similarly, I ask my fellow left leaning liberals not to fall into romanticizing conservative Islam. It's like walking a tightrope, I understand - but the more we avoid falling into traps on either side...the better equipped we will be to combat this.
    ....

  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #664 - February 04, 2017, 07:57 PM

    I chose not to join the march against Donald Trump at the US Embassy in London today – here's why
    Quote from: Wail Qasim
    Across Britain people have been galvanised to take action over Trump, with protests taking place ever since his "Muslim ban" came into effect. Last Monday I spoke at a massive rally outside Downing Street where tens of thousands of people gathered to both protest the executive order and call out our own government's immigration policies. There was a popular feeling in the air and for once it seemed possible to have diverse voices all speak up with those directly affected by Trumps policies.

    Today in Grosvenor Square at the US embassy more folks have come out to continue the movement opposing Trump. It's important the pressure hasn't let up, but if I could attend I wouldn't have because Stand Up To Racism – a group heavily organised by the Socialist Workers’ Party (SWP) – have taken a leading role in calling for this protest. Perhaps you've never heard of them but I think their role will hamper rather than bolster this movement. Let me explain why.
    ....


    Comments on twitter:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/827805378083713024

    https://mobile.twitter.com/MissEllieMae/status/827555070074089477

    https://mobile.twitter.com/libcomorg/status/828184171675865089
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #665 - February 05, 2017, 10:12 AM

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/05/travel-ban-white-house-files-appeal-against-ruling-as-trump-says-well-win
    Quote
    The US appeals court has denied the justice department’s request for an immediate reinstatement of Donald Trump’s controversial travel ban. The ninth US circuit court of appeals in San Francisco made the ruling early on Sunday morning, and asked those challenging the ban to respond to the appeal filed by the Trump administration late on Saturday night, and the justice department to file a counter-response by Monday afternoon.

  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #666 - February 05, 2017, 11:31 AM

    The radical left complaining about the radical right. Hilarious. Milo is a professional troll. He knows it and anybody that watches him should notice it One of goals of his trolling is to expose members of the left as the violent people they are. He is very successful in doing this. Calling him a white supremacist has no basis, it is a smear tactic. However Milo and Breitbart pander to racist as customers.

    Both sides are equivocating. Do notice how Milo brings up illegal immigrants then the left shifts this to just immigrants. Milo uses free speech as if it is the same as providing a platform to speak from. Denying a platform is not a denial of free speech.

    In defense of the violence at Berkeley
    Quote
    Well, I’m here to thank the radical measures the AntiFas took to ensure my safety. It has been reported by numerous sources that Breitbart’s mascot planned on launching a campaign against undocumented students and sanctuary campuses. More disturbing was the possibility of him outing and targeting specific undocumented students on campus, much like he did to a trans student at the University of Wisconsin at Milwaukee.

    As an outspoken undocumented student at Berkeley, this frightened me. I walked around campus constantly looking over my shoulder that day, uncertain whether the doxing of my online profile had already placed a target on me.

  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #667 - February 05, 2017, 04:30 PM

    Not just 'bad hombres': Trump is targeting up to 8 million people for deportation
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #668 - February 05, 2017, 09:31 PM

    Just when you think Trump couldn't go overkill again he does, then doubles down.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #669 - February 05, 2017, 10:33 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3yesvvYEvs

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #670 - February 06, 2017, 02:57 AM

    For a self-declared hyper-pragmatist, you have a distinctly idealistic view of how institutions behave in changing circumstances. I'll leave it at that.


    I didn't declare myself a hyper-pragmatist. What I said was that I'm not emotionally involved in this issue. I'm very open about the fact that I have bipolar disorder, which means that my emotional state fluctuates wildly and how I feel about things on an emotional level can also vary wildly based on nothing more than the chemicals my brain has decided to barf up today. When I make the decision to put my emotions aside to consider a topic more rationally, it's a conscious, difficult, and uphill battle to do so. I'm not just pragmatic by nature. I'm emotional by nature, and probably more naturally emotional than anyone else in this thread. I just think that the topic is too important for me to base my decisions in emotion.

    I watched how my dad's paranoia impacted his beliefs about governments and politics and I saw how it made his life and my own life far worse than it had to be. On a lot of topics, I'm more than happy to let my emotions get the better of my judgement, and I'm more than happy to make decisions based on my emotions. Do I emotionally stuff my face with ice cream or do the pragmatic thing and eat some vegetables? Do I lie in bed all day or make an effort to take a shower? Do I watch shit TV or read a book? These are all things that I don't mind answering emotionally because choosing the emotional path only adversely effects me. When there is someone else who would suffer as a result of my emotional state, I work very hard to make sure that the answer I give is a pragmatic one, not an emotional one. I may also use emotions, but I do my best to make sure that my answer isn't just emotional.

    When we're dealing with something like the international politics, I think it's very important to think about it pragmatically and not just emotionally. My emotions aren't going to effect whether or not a Syrian child is safe tonight. My emotions aren't going to effect whether or not Donald Trump is president tomorrow. My emotions aren't going to effect whether or not Angela Merkel's open borders policy is resulting in migrants increasing the rape and murder rate in Germany by several dozen percent. My emotions will not change any of the facts, any more than prayers, twitter hashtags, or blog posts will. So instead of just throwing my emotions at the problems, I have to make the effort to throw my intellect at them. I have to try to find ways to work with the existing systems to fix the problems. Then, when I've given it some thought, I can call my politicians and tell them what I think and ask that they do things my way, or I can run for government office and try to convince other people that I've got the best ideas, or I can donate to a non-profit or lobbyist group that helps fund or garner political support for the things I think are helpful.

    For example, if I felt that fighting Donald Trump's policies in court should be my #1 priority, I would donate to the ACLU. If I felt that keeping America's crime rate down and preventing rapes and murders would best be served by more people having guns, I would donate to the NRA. If I felt that America's interests would best be served by opposing the TPP, I would call my congressmen. If I felt that abortions needed to be protected from a conservative government, I would donate to Planned Parenthood. These are all ways I could affect actual change and none of them require or demand that I am overly emotionally invested in the cause.

    The left are the ones who will stand up for you if you are "Muslim looking" and have a "Muslim sounding" name which causes you to be targeted by these policies.


    I'm not sure that's true. Not only have Democrats, like Bill Clinton in the clip I posted in my last comment, pushed the same agendas while they were president, they have also continued or expanded drone strikes, no-due-process indefinite holding facilities like Gitmo, interventions in countries like Libya that directly resulted in ISIS gaining a foothold there, racially discriminatory policies like "Stop and Frisk" and the three strikes rule, and other disastrous miscarriages of justice and equality. I think that the only thing that the left has been better at from a purely facts-based point of view is presenting itself in a more positive light. In spite of that, I voted for Obama both times, and had he been running against Trump, I would probably have voted for him again. As much of a corporatist as he has proven himself to be, his economic policies were at least slightly better, even if he wasn't much better on an international politics front. If Trump manages to defeat ISIS or at least to contain it until it defeats itself, or if Trump manages to not start any new wars, or if Trump manages to stop bombing some of the countries we are currently bombing for no reason, I might consider voting for him in four years. As the 2016 election was, however, I could not vote for Hillary Clinton. I believe she is unprincipled, that she does not have a conscience, that she cares more about her own financial interests than she does the country, that she has (probably illegally, certainly immorally) taken millions from both from countries like Saudi Arabia and international corporations like Goldman Sachs to influence her politics, and that she has knowingly and proudly endorsed international actions that benefit her donors at the expense not only of the American people but of people in foreign countries--such as her policies in Libya, her push for a no-fly zone over Syria, and most of the stuff she did as secretary of state.


    It is their democratic right to protest.


    In the United States, this right is granted by the 1st amendment clauses "to peacefully assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." If the protests are not peaceful, then they do not have the right to hold them. If there is no particular grievance or the grievance is the result of the democratic process, then they are not petitioning for a redress of grievances, they're just being entitled brats. I hate how many times I've had to appeal to the constitution in this thread. I'm not a constitutional lawyer, I took one course on it in 10th grade and that class wasn't taught by any kind of law expert, it was taught by an evangelical Christian interested in "making America Christian". (The story of that was: my parents paid people to pretend that I was in school when I wasn't, and the only real condition they placed on them before I could get a diploma was that I attend this "Jesus Camp" type indoctrination seminar where I could learn "how to influence the government for Christ."  Their goal was to infiltrate the government with tons of young people who believed in their ideology so they could make America the country that they wanted it to be.)


    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #671 - February 06, 2017, 10:32 AM

    It has been repeatedly mentioned that Trump's so-called "Muslim ban" is in fact not a permanent ban, nor does it require a religious test.  There are many Muslim countries (with truly alarming theocratic track records) that were excluded from the "ban".  Furthermore, the blacklisted countries were already targeted by the Obama administration.  So while I still don't understand what the executive order intends to achieve, it most certainly has been exaggerated by the media.

    "Belief can blunt human reason and common sense, even in learned scholars. What is needed is more impartial study." - Ali Dashti

    https://certainlydoubtful1.wordpress.com/

    https://twitter.com/certainlydoubt1
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #672 - February 06, 2017, 11:45 AM

    It has been repeatedly mentioned that Trump's so-called "Muslim ban" is in fact not a permanent ban, nor does it require a religious test.


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/01/29/trump-asked-for-a-muslim-ban-giuliani-says-and-ordered-a-commission-to-do-it-legally/

    Quote
    There are many Muslim countries (with truly alarming theocratic track records) that were excluded from the "ban".  Furthermore, the blacklisted countries were already targeted by the Obama administration.  So while I still don't understand what the executive order intends to achieve, it most certainly has been exaggerated by the media.


    Read the EO for yourself. If you informed you wont be as easily fooled by spin while being able to spot valid criticism. Valid criticism does exist. You may not find it on mainstream media.

    A secondary issue is simply Trump runs his mouth and says stupid shit. He is his own PR nightmare.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #673 - February 06, 2017, 12:14 PM

    Certainlydoubt

    Basic operating procedure when evaluating such claims is to do the checkables, something which is in fact relatively easy.

    In December 2015 Trump issued a statement stating that he would seek a total shutdown of ALL MUSLIMS from entering the US. Whilst that is almost certainly impossible to achieve as a matter of policy, the next best thing is to find ways to prevent as many as possible from doing so. This is one of the goals of the EO - and it is only a first step; that it may collapse due to legal factors, administrative incompetence and concerted opposition is likely, but don't imagine that the policy has been ditched.

    The Obama administration did not target the "blacklisted" countries. It introduced a regulation that stated that people who were passport holders of countries which were in the Visa waiver programme who had been to one of those 7 countries in the previous 5 years were not eligible ( subject to certain exclusions ) for the VWP and had to get a visa via an application to a US consulate prior to travel.

    People who were nationals of the 7 countries already had to obtain visas and undergo extensive, expensive and time-consuming vetting procedures. No one was banned or excluded on a blanket basis.

    Trump's EO is something radically different.

    It completely bans ALL refugees from coming to the US for 120 days, completely bans Syrian refugees indefinitely, re-sets the US target quota for 2017 refugee resettlements from the 110k odd that was set by Obama to 50k, and states that going forward refugee resettlement policy will concentrate on Christian minorities ( ie introducing a religious test; if you think that  a muslim religious minority suffering persecution, such as the Rohingya in Burma, will be covered by this, then you will understand the point  ). The blanket bans for 120 days and all Syrians are, amongst other things, a device to ensure that the goal of reducing refugee resettlements to 50k is met - and that the Trump administration can point to a "success" on this front.
    It also plays well to the racist and xenophobic element of his support base.

    It also, without any due process, seeks to invalidate the lawfully obtained legal status of 10's ( or possibly 100's ) of thousands of people who are in the US / resident in the US but out of the country for perfectly banal and legitimate reasons ( work, family, leisure etc ).  It seeks to do so for at least 3 months and explicitly states that it may seek to extend such, both to nationals of additional countries and in the duration of the ban.

    The media has, if anything, largely failed to outline the full significance of the EO and do the branch and sequels analysis of the steps that follow-on.





  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #674 - February 06, 2017, 07:40 PM


    Valid criticism does exist. You may not find it on mainstream media.

    ^I completely agree



    A secondary issue is simply Trump runs his mouth and says stupid shit. He is his own PR nightmare.


    Yep. Especially compared to the PR smooth sailing that was Obama, that's going to make for an annoying next four years for me as an American. At least he's kinda friendly with the nuclear power most likely to and most capable of shooting ICBMs at us, that's reassuring. But hey, that's democracy, sometimes you don't get what you want, at least it's not a dictatorship and I can vote for someone else in four years.

    Plus I think most Americans are kinda used to being made fun of as fat, lazy, and stupid, it's kinda just what everyone else does. People are going to crack a lot of jokes at America and the American president, but that's kinda just how it usually is lol....for most of my life, that's how it's been, the last 8 years was a nice exception but now it's going to go back to normal.

    Here are British people cracking jokes at Reagan:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2n87YKSjrA

    Here is someone making a dance remix of Clinton's most famous line (the one that got him impeached):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZfrLTD1PZ0

    Here's British people making fun of Bush:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu78RKb6Vkw

    Here are British people cracking jokes at Trump:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8xdIfWdWJ4

    It's kinda nice in a way, you've got some things that are permanent in life, and one of them is that everyone has low expectations and assumes you're stupid because you're American. Nice thing about low expectations is, when you surpass them people are impressed, even though you didn't actually do anything impressive. xD

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #675 - February 06, 2017, 10:43 PM

    I'm not sure that's true. Not only have Democrats, like Bill Clinton in the clip I posted in my last comment, pushed the same agendas while they were president, they have also continued or expanded drone strikes, no-due-process indefinite holding facilities like Gitmo, interventions in countries like Libya that directly resulted in ISIS gaining a foothold there, racially discriminatory policies like "Stop and Frisk" and the three strikes rule, and other disastrous miscarriages of justice and equality. I think that the only thing that the left has been better at from a purely facts-based point of view is presenting itself in a more positive light. In spite of that, I voted for Obama both times, and had he been running against Trump, I would probably have voted for him again. As much of a corporatist as he has proven himself to be, his economic policies were at least slightly better, even if he wasn't much better on an international politics front. If Trump manages to defeat ISIS or at least to contain it until it defeats itself, or if Trump manages to not start any new wars, or if Trump manages to stop bombing some of the countries we are currently bombing for no reason, I might consider voting for him in four years. As the 2016 election was, however, I could not vote for Hillary Clinton. I believe she is unprincipled, that she does not have a conscience, that she cares more about her own financial interests than she does the country, that she has (probably illegally, certainly immorally) taken millions from both from countries like Saudi Arabia and international corporations like Goldman Sachs to influence her politics, and that she has knowingly and proudly endorsed international actions that benefit her donors at the expense not only of the American people but of people in foreign countries--such as her policies in Libya, her push for a no-fly zone over Syria, and most of the stuff she did as secretary of state.

    In the United States, this right is granted by the 1st amendment clauses "to peacefully assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." If the protests are not peaceful, then they do not have the right to hold them. If there is no particular grievance or the grievance is the result of the democratic process, then they are not petitioning for a redress of grievances, they're just being entitled brats. I hate how many times I've had to appeal to the constitution in this thread. I'm not a constitutional lawyer, I took one course on it in 10th grade and that class wasn't taught by any kind of law expert, it was taught by an evangelical Christian interested in "making America Christian". (The story of that was: my parents paid people to pretend that I was in school when I wasn't, and the only real condition they placed on them before I could get a diploma was that I attend this "Jesus Camp" type indoctrination seminar where I could learn "how to influence the government for Christ."  Their goal was to infiltrate the government with tons of young people who believed in their ideology so they could make America the country that they wanted it to be.)




    I'm talking about the left; the people who recently fought Trumps ban and won, not neo-liberals like the Clintons.

    And the minority of anarchists who rioted are irrelevant to anything I said. Hundreds of thousands protested peacefully, as is their right.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #676 - February 07, 2017, 02:35 AM

    Fuck it, I made a video to more adequately explain my position on the vast majority of what has been said in this thread.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMtwfZgdHmY

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #677 - February 07, 2017, 06:18 AM

    Well, the ending summed it up nicely. Don't stop asking questions. Some good advice, that.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #678 - February 07, 2017, 07:47 AM

    Certainlydoubt

    Basic operating procedure when evaluating such claims is to do the checkables, something which is in fact relatively easy.

    In December 2015 Trump issued a statement stating that he would seek a total shutdown of ALL MUSLIMS from entering the US. Whilst that is almost certainly impossible to achieve as a matter of policy, the next best thing is to find ways to prevent as many as possible from doing so. This is one of the goals of the EO - and it is only a first step; that it may collapse due to legal factors, administrative incompetence and concerted opposition is likely, but don't imagine that the policy has been ditched.

    The Obama administration did not target the "blacklisted" countries. It introduced a regulation that stated that people who were passport holders of countries which were in the Visa waiver programme who had been to one of those 7 countries in the previous 5 years were not eligible ( subject to certain exclusions ) for the VWP and had to get a visa via an application to a US consulate prior to travel.

    People who were nationals of the 7 countries already had to obtain visas and undergo extensive, expensive and time-consuming vetting procedures. No one was banned or excluded on a blanket basis.

    Trump's EO is something radically different.

    It completely bans ALL refugees from coming to the US for 120 days, completely bans Syrian refugees indefinitely, re-sets the US target quota for 2017 refugee resettlements from the 110k odd that was set by Obama to 50k, and states that going forward refugee resettlement policy will concentrate on Christian minorities ( ie introducing a religious test; if you think that  a muslim religious minority suffering persecution, such as the Rohingya in Burma, will be covered by this, then you will understand the point  ). The blanket bans for 120 days and all Syrians are, amongst other things, a device to ensure that the goal of reducing refugee resettlements to 50k is met - and that the Trump administration can point to a "success" on this front.
    It also plays well to the racist and xenophobic element of his support base.

    It also, without any due process, seeks to invalidate the lawfully obtained legal status of 10's ( or possibly 100's ) of thousands of people who are in the US / resident in the US but out of the country for perfectly banal and legitimate reasons ( work, family, leisure etc ).  It seeks to do so for at least 3 months and explicitly states that it may seek to extend such, both to nationals of additional countries and in the duration of the ban.

    The media has, if anything, largely failed to outline the full significance of the EO and do the branch and sequels analysis of the steps that follow-on.








    I do not deny that Trump intended to target Muslims.  What I am talking about is the legal implementation of the order which, for all practical purposes, seems less draconian than it has been made out to be.  Effectively, it is a temporary ban for most people.  So even if Trump's intentions were cruel, the political and legal translation is what matters most here.  More importantly, the accusation of "discrimination" must also fall upon Trump's predecessor, since those nations were already selected (the operative term here when qualifying "discrimination") by the Obama administration.

    Everything else at this moment is either uncertain or speculative.

    "Belief can blunt human reason and common sense, even in learned scholars. What is needed is more impartial study." - Ali Dashti

    https://certainlydoubtful1.wordpress.com/

    https://twitter.com/certainlydoubt1
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #679 - February 07, 2017, 11:38 AM

    Less draconian? It would be helpful if you could define what you think a more draconian version would entail.

    The EO causes irrevocable harm to those that it targets, yet it achieves no rational national security objective. The purpose of the EO IS to cause irrevocable harm to a class of people on the basis of where they were born, or on the grounds of an inherited nationality.

    Whilst it's true that Obama signed into law the Visa Waiver Programme Improvement Act, which implements additional checks on the nationals of or dual nationals of or visitors to the 7 nations targeted in Trump's EO, it was a bipartisan compromise to head off an even worse piece of legislation that the Republican Congress was seeking to implement - the America Safe Act - which sought, amongst other things, to ban Syrian refugees from US soil. The Obama administration neither sought nor promoted such legislation in the first place - but, hey, Republican Congress.

    The Trump EO is two steps away from imprisoning legal residents, whose status was lawfully obtained, and who have broken no laws or rules, on the basis of their nationality. Their detention would potentially be indefinite.



    There's an extremely good analysis of the whole thing to be found here:

    https://www.lawfareblog.com/malevolence-tempered-incompetence-trumps-horrifying-executive-order-refugees-and-visas



  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #680 - February 08, 2017, 02:32 AM

    There are already reports of permanent residents of non-list countries being detained, and even a NASA engineer with a US passport. It is actually being implemented more strictly than it was written- by Trump. The original intent of the list (by Obama) was to question those from Visa Waiver Program countries who had been to the listed countries recently or etc. Because those individuals (VWP) undergo virtually zero vetting.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #681 - February 08, 2017, 03:29 AM


    The EO causes irrevocable harm to those that it targets, yet it achieves no rational national security objective.


    What irrevocable harm? Please explain what you mean by this phrase. The rationale he gave during his presidential campaign is "until our government can figure out what the hell is going on over there", and I think it's fairly obvious that what he meant by that is "why there is so much terrorism, both targeting the US and its citizens and allies abroad and also even other Muslims, who make up the vast majority of victims of Islamic terror abroad." We can argue until the cows come home about whether or not the EO will achieve those goals--I don't think that it will--but the people who support it obviously have a kind of rationale to support their position. They're not acting from a position of irrational fear of Islam or brown people, they're acting from a position of concern about terrorism, at least from their perspective.


    The purpose of the EO IS to cause irrevocable harm to a class of people on the basis of where they were born, or on the grounds of an inherited nationality.


    I disagree. I also think that the EO is unconstitutional, and that's why I'm not surprised that it was immediately struck down in court. However, I don't see a reason to jump to frankly paranoid conclusions about Trump's racist intentions in signing the order or his desire to hurt people; can you provide evidence for your position? To me it seems like he has a fear of terrorism, has noticed that ISIS said they were sending terrorists among the refugees, followed by a spike in terrorist attacks in Europe from refugees and other migrants, and concluded that preventing refugees from entering for 90 days until he and his cabinet could work out a better policy was the safest option. Those are logical steps, not racist ones, and even if it is unconstitutional and ultimately misguided, it's not paranoid or racist.



    The Trump EO is two steps away from imprisoning legal residents, whose status was lawfully obtained, and who have broken no laws or rules, on the basis of their nationality.


    Do you have evidence that he intends to do that? He didn't mention it as part of his political campaign and to my knowledge, hasn't mentioned it since, so if there's no evidence that he intends to even try, then you're being paranoid and conspiratorial. Also, like I said, the EO was already struck down in court as unconstitutional, and although his administration has appealed, they haven't continued the policy while it is being appealed. So as shocking as it may seem, America is still under the rule of law and Trump is not a dictator, he is the president of a constitutional republic.


    Their detention would potentially be indefinite.


    Who did that? Who suspended the writ of habeus corpus? Who signed into law bills allowing foreign nationals to be held without trial? Who opened and maintained places like Gitmo where unregulated government and non-governmental militaries could hold people without trial and without charge indefinitely? I'll give you a hint: it was two people, both American presidents, in the past 10 years. One of them was a democrat and the other was a republican. If you want to blame Trump for Gitmo, you have to also blame Obama, and Obama campaigned on closing it and then failed to make any substantive effort to do so.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #682 - February 08, 2017, 12:00 PM

    There are already reports of permanent residents of non-list countries being detained, and even a NASA engineer with a US passport. It is actually being implemented more strictly than it was written- by Trump. The original intent of the list (by Obama) was to question those from Visa Waiver Program countries who had been to the listed countries recently or etc. Because those individuals (VWP) undergo virtually zero vetting.


    True. I have a friend who lives a very secular life, doesn't wear hijab, etc who works for Qatar Airways, so she flies a lot. She got back home to Florida and was taken into a room for interrogation. Since she's a US citizen they had to let her in, but that didn't stop them from bullying her and asking lots of invasive questions.

    The only way that anyone could have a clue that this girl is a Muslim is through her name. So they were targeting people on their names, the way they look perhaps other things such as wearing a hijab in their passport photo. I remember a certain New Atheist "liberal" advocating exactly this. Now he is acting like he is against the ban, but has he made a statement on how he was wrong to support it in the first place? Because I haven't found one.

    People like him are complicit.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #683 - February 08, 2017, 12:07 PM

    True. I have a friend who lives a very secular life, doesn't wear hijab, etc who works for Qatar Airways, so she flies a lot. She got back home to Florida and was taken into a room for interrogation. Since she's a US citizen they had to let her in, but that didn't stop them from bullying her and asking lots of invasive questions.

    The only way that anyone could have a clue that this girl is a Muslim is through her name. So they were targeting people on their names, the way they look perhaps other things such as wearing a hijab in their passport photo. I remember a certain New Atheist "liberal" advocating exactly this. Now he is acting like he is against the ban, but has he made a statement on how he was wrong to support it in the first place? Because I haven't found one.

    People like him are complicit.


    Oooooorrrrr.....someone on the no-fly list or who committed a more recent terror attack could have a similar name. That's been known to have happened. Like in this 2006 story of a 4 year old, or this 2010 one of an 8 year old, or in this 18 month old in 2012.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #684 - February 08, 2017, 12:16 PM

    Under different circumstances I would say so, but that doesn't explain why someone who travels as much as she does was only singled out after Trump's executive order.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #685 - February 08, 2017, 12:20 PM

    Under different circumstances I would say so, but that doesn't explain why someone who travels as much as she does was only singled out after Trump's executive order.


    Could just be your conformation bias + recency effect + some other psychological quirks making some instances stand out more than others. If there's no evidence that it's related and the TSA has been doing "random checks"/secret lists like this for some time, I don't see a reason to assume a cause/effect link. Incidentally, how many of her flights has this happened on? If she's a flight attendant I assume she's been on more than one flight in or out of the US during the past month.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #686 - February 08, 2017, 12:29 PM

    Less draconian? It would be helpful if you could define what you think a more draconian version would entail.

    The EO causes irrevocable harm to those that it targets, yet it achieves no rational national security objective. The purpose of the EO IS to cause irrevocable harm to a class of people on the basis of where they were born, or on the grounds of an inherited nationality.

    Whilst it's true that Obama signed into law the Visa Waiver Programme Improvement Act, which implements additional checks on the nationals of or dual nationals of or visitors to the 7 nations targeted in Trump's EO, it was a bipartisan compromise to head off an even worse piece of legislation that the Republican Congress was seeking to implement - the America Safe Act - which sought, amongst other things, to ban Syrian refugees from US soil. The Obama administration neither sought nor promoted such legislation in the first place - but, hey, Republican Congress.

    The Trump EO is two steps away from imprisoning legal residents, whose status was lawfully obtained, and who have broken no laws or rules, on the basis of their nationality. Their detention would potentially be indefinite.



    There's an extremely good analysis of the whole thing to be found here:

    https://www.lawfareblog.com/malevolence-tempered-incompetence-trumps-horrifying-executive-order-refugees-and-visas






    I will have to read your link, in great length, later on.  For the time being I will just repeat again:

    - It is a temporary ban (for the most part).
    - If it were truly a Muslim ban, it would have targeted all Muslim nations, especially those which have a disproportionately greater affinity for theocracy (and we happen to have background data on such menacing communities for simplifying the task).
    - Regardless of the political origin of how the "blacklist" was compiled, the fact of the matter is at the time no one accused Obama (or the Republicans) of practicing discrimination.  So why is it just coming up now?

    Again, I am only interested in the legality of the matter.

    "Belief can blunt human reason and common sense, even in learned scholars. What is needed is more impartial study." - Ali Dashti

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  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #687 - February 08, 2017, 12:31 PM

    Could just be your conformation bias + recency effect + some other psychological quirks making some instances stand out more than others. If there's no evidence that it's related and the TSA has been doing "random checks"/secret lists like this for some time, I don't see a reason to assume a cause/effect link. Incidentally, how many of her flights has this happened on? If she's a flight attendant I assume she's been on more than one flight in or out of the US during the past month.


    One that I'm aware of. But Trump's executive order lasted far less than a month, so while it's not absolute proof that her interrogation had something to do with his executive order, it feels like too much of a coincidence. That's especially given the fact that there are multiple accounts on social media ad in the news similar to hers, and from people who have no connection to the 7 banned countries.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #688 - February 08, 2017, 12:47 PM

    it feels like too much of a coincidence


    There's the problem. If it being a coincidence or due to another reason than Trump's presidency, such as laws and policies that have been on the books for 10-15 years, hasn't been or can't be ruled out, then i see no reason to jump to conclusions, no matter how i feel.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #689 - February 08, 2017, 03:33 PM

    With all due respect you blamed BLM when a disabled man was kidnapped and tortured by Black youth, despite the fact that you didn't have absolutely proof that there were any links to BLM. You justified this by using increased racial tensions, which you believe BLM to be responsible for.

    Apply the same standard of proof to my friend's situation  and there is an even higher likelihood on the balance of probabilities that it had something to do with Trump. In addition to the invasive questions which I won't go into, she was asked pointless questions about her faith such as how many times a day she prays, and this just happens to occur after Trump's executive order as opposed to it happening at any other time. Add the fact that there have been numerous accounts of the same thing happening to others who are either Muslim or were mistaken to be after the ban and yes, while we can't be 100% certain that it had something to do with Trump, it's far more likely than not that it does. It isn't just about how I feel.
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