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Theme Changer

 Topic: Being pragmatic about religion

 (Read 2503 times)
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  • Being pragmatic about religion
     OP - December 14, 2015, 06:12 AM

    I've been looking into the works of Muslim reformers like Maajiid Nawaz and I think they seem to have some of the best ideas on how to move forward to reduce extremism and change mainstream Islam into something more consistent with 21st century values. Before I was on the side of the hard-line atheists who talk about getting rid of religion as the best way forward to stop religious violence throughout the world. However, I am beginning to see their goals as unrealistic and counterproductive as I talk to more religious people about their faith.

    Devout religious people are not like me. If everybody was like me, rational conversations on whether or not certain religions are true would be the best strategy to reduce the violence and other harm that irrational religious dogmas have on the world. For me, the most important conversation to have is whether or not religion is "true." However, I am seeing increasingly in interacting with believers, that the absolute last thing they will question is their faith itself.

    This is making me think that religion is here to stay. For certain people who happen to be strongly predisposed to believe, there just is no reason or logic that will dissuade them. They may question certain certain peripheral parts of their faith (maybe predestination is true, maybe I should accept modern scientific findings into my theology), but they will do intellectual gymnastics to not question the central claims of their faith themselves. Perhaps the best way to go forward is to be pragmatic and encourage interpretations of faith that do not conflict with humanistic values and well established science.

    This seems almost dishonest for me, as when I hear religious leaders interpreting holy texts in ways that clearly have nothing to do with the author's original intent taken in its historical context, it makes me cringe. I am referring to things like Christians who believe the Bible is fully compatible with LGBT rights and Muslims who claim that Aisha was at least 17 when she was married to Muhammad. Their theology is not so much morally repugnant but intellectually bankrupt. The intellectual side of me wants to immediately correct them, but maybe what they are doing is a good thing. If believers are going to hold their beliefs anyway, why are we so quick to shoot down those who would promote a more harmless understanding of their faith? Sure, some of us former believers may have been attracted to liberal theology as it was more in line with our moral values, but once learning that these interpretations were more humanistic than having anything to do with a more "correct" understanding of the faith, led us to leave our religions all together. On the other hand, throwing out a violent verse to those who fervently declare that Islam is a religion of peace seems counterproductive if that person's piety outweighs their humanistic concerns and may push them further into the extremist camp.

    Is it really true that in religion, there is no more or less "correct" understanding of a certain faith? Is it a system where everybody whose opinion of what their religion is is a valid interpretation? I'm inclined to disagree. I think the texts say what they say and I was horrified by their contents and that's why I left. But in the interest of reducing the harm religion is causing, I am tempted to support gay theology and scientific accommodationism because for some people, leaving their faith is off the table.

    What do you guys think of reform movements in Islam that may be dishonest theologically, but helpful politically?

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Being pragmatic about religion
     Reply #1 - December 14, 2015, 06:19 AM

    I respect guys like Maajid Nawaz for wanting a change, but sometimes he makes statements that don't hold Muslims accountable for what Islam really is.

    "If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
    "Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
    "Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
  • Being pragmatic about religion
     Reply #2 - December 14, 2015, 07:08 AM

    I realized that long time ago.

    Really it's probably easier to convert Muslim to Christianity or even Hinduism before you can make them atheist.

    Some people just believe in God.
  • Being pragmatic about religion
     Reply #3 - December 14, 2015, 08:26 AM

    "Really it's probably easier to convert Muslim to Christianity or even Hinduism before you can make them atheist."

    It's always going to depend on the person and what route they want to take. One is never easier than the other to convert someone into. It's always the choice of the person at the end of the day and the answers always vary.

    "If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
    "Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
    "Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
  • Being pragmatic about religion
     Reply #4 - December 14, 2015, 09:11 AM

    I took a philosophy class when I was at Christian college. The students were polled on what religious beliefs they would hold if they were not a Christian. I was the only one in the class that said I'd be an atheist/naturalist

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Being pragmatic about religion
     Reply #5 - December 14, 2015, 09:19 AM

    What did the others say?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Being pragmatic about religion
     Reply #6 - December 14, 2015, 10:24 AM

    The rest were supernaturalist options. There was polytheism, other forms of monotheism, the like good/evil dualism of Zoroastrianism (I forget what it's called)

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Being pragmatic about religion
     Reply #7 - December 14, 2015, 12:39 PM

    I took a philosophy class when I was at Christian college. The students were polled on what religious beliefs they would hold if they were not a Christian. I was the only one in the class that said I'd be an atheist/naturalist


    I went to Roman Catholic schools up to age 18. Hardly any of my fellow pupils were believers but none of us would have admitted it to any of the teachers. Perhaps those people were of the same mind.
  • Being pragmatic about religion
     Reply #8 - December 14, 2015, 03:27 PM

    @Jusperusing.

    What you say is let's reform Islam as we did with Christianity, because there will always be religious people. You are not the first one.  Smiley
    Problem is: Is that going to work? Many think that it will not work because Christianity is not Islam.
  • Being pragmatic about religion
     Reply #9 - December 14, 2015, 04:07 PM

    I don’t think there is an easy answer to this, though I do think it is a discussion we must continue to have. I think we must continue to allow all voices in the debate to be aired.

    Those who want to interpret Islam in a more spiritual or agnostic manner must be allowed to do so, since, to your point, many people will still be attracted to Islam’s spiritual tradition for their own personal needs and comfort.

    Similarly, those of us who have rejected Islam all together should still be vocal about our reasons why, because ultimately, violent, intolerant, or literal interpretations need to be confronted for what they actually are without sugar coating or sidestepping.

    I believe it was Os who once said that the problem of literalism will continue so long as people can pick up the texts and read what they actually say. Therefore, it is important that the anecdote to those toxic ideas are out there and made available to everyone.

    I don’t think we should concern ourselves so much with trying to give people something that they must believe in. Trying to create a new Islam for the masses is ultimately a blunder waiting to happen, because it misses the point of allowing people the opportunity to think and conclude for themselves.

    I think, instead, we should be concerned with creating an environment where all ideas can be aired and confronted as needed. That is ultimately what the literalists are afraid of.
  • Being pragmatic about religion
     Reply #10 - December 14, 2015, 05:29 PM

    When it comes to labeling yourself an agnostic Muslim or something along those lines, that's all well and good, but I don't think it will ever become the mainstream "Islam". I think most believers are drawn to religion by the supernatural element of a God who cares, can intervene in the world for them, and can guarantee a good afterlife for them. Religion stripped of its supernatural baggage is not going to be appealing to the majority of believers. It may be a helpful viewpoint for a few who are essentially agnostic/atheists who still feel a strong connection to their religion, but I don't think it will ever supplant mainstream, "the Quran is infallible" Islam.

    The reform movements I'm talking about are those that would say that they actually have a correct interpretation of this infallible book. Maybe even "the" correct interpretation and their liberal theology is in accordance with what God actually wants. Something that could actually take over as the mainstream beliefs. These can seem kind of dishonest, but perhaps they do more good than harm because they encourage the unscrupulous to have a much more benign, although naive understanding of their faith.

    It seems to have worked in Christianity. The vast majority of Christians seem to think that the Bible can just be boiled down to "love one another" and "God is love". Very few actually read the whole thing and figure out that God is portrayed as a massive asshole

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Being pragmatic about religion
     Reply #11 - December 14, 2015, 05:36 PM

    I think, instead, we should be concerned with creating an environment where all ideas can be aired and confronted as needed. That is ultimately what the literalists are afraid of.


    Such a beautiful quote.  Something that would make literalists say, "May Allah guide you or break your back."

    Anyone that is not willing to question their beliefs wants to live in a world where they are not satisfied with the world because they choose NOT to understand it. And that's what religion does.

    "The only meaning of life worth caring about is the one that can withstand our best efforts to examine it."

    "If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
    "Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
    "Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
  • Being pragmatic about religion
     Reply #12 - December 14, 2015, 05:59 PM

    When it comes to labeling yourself an agnostic Muslim or something along those lines, that's all well and good, but I don't think it will ever become the mainstream "Islam". I think most believers are drawn to religion by the supernatural element of a God who cares, can intervene in the world for them, and can guarantee a good afterlife for them. Religion stripped of its supernatural baggage is not going to be appealing to the majority of believers. It may be a helpful viewpoint for a few who are essentially agnostic/atheists who still feel a strong connection to their religion, but I don't think it will ever supplant mainstream, "the Quran is infallible" Islam.

    And that’s exactly where I think people like us come in. We should not be afraid to vocalize concerns or criticize any interpretation of Islam. It is, in my opinion, patronizing and belittling to suggest that Muslims as a whole have to have some sort of religious safety net to fall back on and therefore we should never criticize more liberal interpretations.

    Quote
    The reform movements I'm talking about are those that would say that they actually have a correct interpretation of this infallible book. Maybe even "the" correct interpretation and their liberal theology is in accordance with what God actually wants. Something that could actually take over as the mainstream beliefs. These can seem kind of dishonest, but perhaps they do more good than harm because they encourage the unscrupulous to have a much more benign, although naive understanding of their faith.


    Again, they should certainly be allowed to say that. There should also certainly be the voice out there that cries, “Not so fast! Look at WHAT IT SAYS here!”

    At the end of the day, it will be up to each individual to decide what they are going to believe in. We accept this sort of plurality of thought when it comes to westerners, but are often prone to treating Muslims as this monolithic block that needs to be catered to.

    I’ve wrestled internally with the idea of Islam for the better part of 10 years now. I’ve taken all sorts of views and opinions into consideration when trying to decide exactly what my stance on the religion will be. I’ve allowed myself to grapple with all sorts of questions with regards to the faith and its relevance to me personally.

    Will I view Muhammad as just some sort of opportunistic fraud or as a resourceful, great leader of his time? Will I interpret La ilaha illalah to be a totalitarian phrase of intolerance or as a statement that echoes with agnostic undertones, since whatever God may be would necessarily be greater than anything we could fathom, and whatever we might fathom would simply be on the “la ilaha” side of the equation?

    Hell, do I even believe that Muhammad existed? If he did exist, what accounts for the drastic change in the nature and tone of his message from the so-called “Meccan Period” to the “Medinite” one? Maybe he died before the hijra? Maybe he himself immigrated to Abyssinia? Maybe he actually never existed? Or maybe he really did just get drunk with power?

    What do others have to say about it? What’s the most compelling narrative?

    I’ve been able to grapple with these questions and many more not because someone told me I have to, but because I have the freedom to think, and others have had the freedom to communicate their own ideas and conclusions for my consideration. That is the goal I think we should be pushing towards. That is what will lead to plurality of thought and opinion. And that is where we will ultimately see the worst ideas either dying off or finding themselves constantly challenged and marginalized.

    We can’t do that if we just suddenly stop challenging people’s proposals for the sake of harmony.
  • Being pragmatic about religion
     Reply #13 - December 17, 2015, 09:11 AM

    Great input HM. You've clearly put a lot of thought into this.

    Just watching the Republican debate last night was hard because none of the people on stage seem to have a clue what lies at the heart of Islamic extremism. It's all about wiping out the members of the organizations militarily, just so we can get involved in another ultimately futile struggle. The idea of Islamism will continue to thrive and birth to other dangerous terrorist organizations.

    What needs to be challenged is the ideological narrative behind these acts of violence, and I think Muslim reformers may be in a better place to turn that around rather than non-Muslim people insisting that Islam is inherently violent and needs to be eradicated. And if we keep slamming reformers as ignoring the violent/intolerant parts of scripture, it seems counterproductive in moving forward. I'm tempted to do that as I've read the texts and it seems completely paradoxical for me to see a flamboyantly gay muslim on tv proclaiming that Islam is accepting of his lifestyle. But perhaps as I see deriving a gay friendly theology from Islamic texts to be stretching them from their original meaning at least as far as those who want to impose sharia law on society, that just because two ideas seem equally untrue, we should concern ourselves far more with dealing with the dangerous one.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Being pragmatic about religion
     Reply #14 - December 17, 2015, 09:39 AM

    Republican's talking shit about things they have no knowledge of? Well I never.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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