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Theme Changer

 Topic: Appalling priorities

 (Read 4099 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Appalling priorities
     OP - December 18, 2015, 09:55 PM
    Today an Indian non-muslim figure I follow on Facebook posted something which unfortunately was the truth.



    The most liked comment was (obviously from a Muslim):
    "Cartoonist and the one who's sharing, both are confused! 4 wives Halal one can understand, but along with 4, one naked girl. If Mr <name-bleeped> you understand please enlighten me."

    In the discussion, his next comment was (And I'm paraphrasing some parts):  "Kindly do not spread such misinformation about Islam, it's offensive. Slave girl may not be the wife, but it's wrong to show as if nakedness was allowed for the slave girl. Please get your facts straight etc."

    What appalled me in this little exchange was that he was outraged and offended at the fact that the slave girl is shown "naked" according to him. But he is completely apathetic about the wife number 4 who's just a child. Not to mention he's not in the slightest disconcerted about the 4 wives (including the child) and the slave girl. The fact that it was the most liked comment disturbs me even further.
    There was not even a mention of the little girl.

    The non-muslim brother soon removed his post but ..
    What the holy shnikes?
    The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those that cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. - Alvin Toffler
  • Appalling priorities
     Reply #1 - December 18, 2015, 10:12 PM
    The picture is a truthful depiction. Except I would put the wives in a cage. I think that would be more accurate.

    Islamic lecturers are busy making 45 minute speeches of "why the husband should inform his first wife about a second marriage."

    Meanwhile... The rest of the world is moving on and progressing..

    And yep slave women were topless back in the day..
    "If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
    "Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
    "Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
  • Appalling priorities
     Reply #2 - December 18, 2015, 10:15 PM
    Unfortunately this is true. And even if slave girls were able to cover their breasts, the whole situation would be just as disturbing.
  • Appalling priorities
     Reply #3 - December 18, 2015, 10:21 PM
    The mistake in the depiction of the slave girl dressed according to Sharia is the fact that her belly botton is showing.
  • Appalling priorities
     Reply #4 - December 18, 2015, 10:25 PM
    ^Sharia
  • Appalling priorities
     Reply #5 - December 18, 2015, 10:31 PM
    Quote from: ExMuslimVlogGuy on December 18, 2015, 10:12 PM
    And yep slave women were topless back in the day..


    I've heard that but never found a reference. Could you link me to an authentic hadith or something?
    The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those that cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. - Alvin Toffler
  • Appalling priorities
     Reply #6 - December 18, 2015, 10:42 PM
    https://www.google.co.ma/search?q=%D8%B9%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%A9+%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D9%85%D8%A9&hl=fr&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=NA8GVczELJftaJLFgLgO&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1093&bih=499&dpr=1.25

    This link would give you a good idea how a slave woman would look in Islam..

    Nafe'e narrated that whenever Ibn Umar wanted to buy a slave-girl, he would inspect her by analysing her legs and placing his hands between her breasts and on her buttocks"
    Sunnan Al-Kubra, Volume 5 page 329

    Imam Al-Baani al-Wahabi termed the tradition as 'Sahih' in his book "Mukhtasir Irwa Al-Ghalil Fi Takhrij Ahadith Manar Al-Sabil" Volume 1 page 355 Hadith number 1792.

    Anas reported: Umar once saw a slave-girl that belonged to us (to Anas) wearing a scarf, so Umar hit her and told her: Don't assume the manners of a free woman.

    Musnaf Ibn Abi Shaybah, Volume 2 page 41 Tradition 6236

    Imam Ibn Hajar in al-Deraya Volume 1 page 124 and Al-Albani the Salafi in Irwa al-Ghalil Volume 6 page 203 have graded this hadith as Sahih.

    Imam al-Beyhaqi records in ‘Al-Sunnan al-Kubra’ Volume 2 page 227:

    عن جده أنس بن مالك قال كن إماء عمر رضي الله عنه يخدمننا كاشفات عن شعورهن تضطرب ثديهن
     قال الشيخ والآثار عن عمر بن الخطاب رضي الله عنه في ذلك صحيحة

    Anas bin Malik said: ‘The slave-girls of Umar were serving us with uncovered hair and their breasts shaking”

    "If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
    "Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
    "Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
  • Appalling priorities
     Reply #7 - December 18, 2015, 10:58 PM
    Umayyad fresco from Qasr Amra
    Which side are you on?
  • Appalling priorities
     Reply #8 - December 18, 2015, 11:27 PM
    Quote from: ExMuslimVlogGuy on December 18, 2015, 10:42 PM

    Sunnan Al-Kubra, Volume 5 page 329[/b]

    Musnaf Ibn Abi Shaybah, Volume 2 page 41 Tradition 6236

    Imam Ibn Hajar in al-Deraya Volume 1 page 124 and Al-Albani the Salafi in Irwa al-Ghalil Volume 6 page 203 have graded this hadith as Sahih.

    Imam al-Beyhaqi records in ‘Al-Sunnan al-Kubra’ Volume 2 page 227:


    These don't ring a bell with me. I think they're outside of the 6 major hadiths right? I think the weak hadith argument would apply? (My knowledge in Hadith is not good).
    The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those that cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. - Alvin Toffler
  • Appalling priorities
     Reply #9 - December 18, 2015, 11:35 PM
    OK need to clarify some misconceptions. Just because a hadith is not found in the 6 major hadith collections, does not automatically render it "weak". It can still be classified saheeh or hasan. There are also weak narrations found in the 6 famous hadith collections. For someone to ignore a narration, irregardless how the hadith scholars graded it, just because they are not "the famous 6" is ignorant and shouldn't be taken seriously in a theological discussion...
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Appalling priorities
     Reply #10 - December 18, 2015, 11:55 PM
    Quote from: mosster on December 18, 2015, 11:27 PM
    These don't ring a bell with me. I think they're outside of the 6 major hadiths right? I think the weak hadith argument would apply? (My knowledge in Hadith is not good).


    First of all it's important to distinguish between a narration and a hadeeth. I can tell you haven't studied these sciences very much. But don't worry, no need to waste your time studying them..

    Shaykh Al-Albani (a well-known recognized scholar in hadeeth) graded the chain of transmission to be "jayyid" meaning "good" in the narration about "women with uncovered hair with their breasts shaking."

    Now if one wants to be insincere about this, they can.. They can say "Al-Albani is not a scholar" and bring their own sugar-coated version of Islam that allows women to lead the prayer..

    I'm just providing facts according to Islamic history. Whatever spin they want to put on it is up to them.

    Bring me any Muslim, and I'll bet they'll cry and complain, "ALL OF THIS IS NOT TRUE! THERE WAS NO SLAVERY IN ISLAM!" And be in denial.. But it's not my job to convince them.

    You have to use deductive reasoning when figuring out why Islam is false..
    "If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
    "Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
    "Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
  • Appalling priorities
     Reply #11 - December 19, 2015, 12:00 AM
    ^^I think that Mosster just meant that Muslims and apologists would use the "weak Hadith" argument when presented with this evidence. He's probably right, as I used to reject every Hadith that portrayed Islam in a bad light (unless it was Bukhari or Muslim) back when I was in denial.
  • Appalling priorities
     Reply #12 - December 19, 2015, 12:00 AM
    "Al-Albani is not a scholar", who says that? You don't have to think he's the scholar or whatever. But a lot of scholars from ahl al sunnah have called him the muhaddith of our time. You don't have to think he is flawless in his grading of various hadith, no one was nor is, but he is a scholar nonetheless.

    I was so chocked, I even put in a "motherfucker, what" in there at first. But then I remembered I need to cut down on my swearing. And then I decided not to give a shit.

    Also, about the rejecting hadiths - discussing these matters with laymen who have no concept of any theoretical theology in Islam whatsoever is kind of meaningless. In the end, people will chose what to believe in. I've long ago abandoned the "purist" approach to convince people Islam is bullshit. If people chose to interpret and make Islam better than it is, it's better than them accepting the bad things as "Allah's religion". The more people do it, perhaps we'll get a nicer, more cozy, watered down version of Islam just like we've managed to do with Christianity?
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Appalling priorities
     Reply #13 - December 19, 2015, 12:45 AM
    The bottom line is that Muslims will choose their own flavor just like at an ice cream shop.. Hanafis will say, "Al-Albani was not a scholar" etc. And Salafis will say the Hanafis are not scholars, and the circle of bullshit continues..

    Looking at all the hadeeth and narrations as an ex-muslim, my rule of thumb is that if it's there, and it affected people in Islamic History, then yeah it's "sahih" in my book. Shaykh al-ExMuslimVlogGuy.

    This is why you can never convince someone that Islam is "wrong" or "right." Same with religion. Apologists will say, "This is not authentic" or "We should check the context (while putting their own spin of interpretation on it.)"

    When you become ex-muslim, you can't look at Islam from a Salafi, Sufi, or "Moderate Muslim" point of view. You have to be objective of all the texts and put them into light...

    Even if a Muslim deems something "weak" or "not true", you have to make the Muslim question, "Well why is it there in the first place?"

    "If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
    "Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
    "Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
  • Re: Appalling priorities
     Reply #14 - December 19, 2015, 06:01 AM
    Quote from: Cornflower on December 19, 2015, 12:00 AM
    "Al-Albani is not a scholar", who says that? You don't have to think he's the scholar or whatever. But a lot of scholars from ahl al sunnah have called him the muhaddith of our time. You don't have to think he is flawless in his grading of various hadith, no one was nor is, but he is a scholar nonetheless.


    I wouldn't be surprised by the fact that he was a salafi is enough for a large number of muslims  to distrust his rating of hadiths.
  • Appalling priorities
     Reply #15 - December 19, 2015, 10:37 AM
    ^ and that's why discussing theology with uneducated laymen is at the end of the line fruitless. If you have no concept of the topic at hand, how can you possibly understand anything I say? People in general will continue believing what they want to believe. Even the devout hard core Salafi will keep to his point of view, justifying it one way or the other. Some just do it with more or less finesse.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Appalling priorities
     Reply #16 - December 19, 2015, 03:56 PM
    If you argue with a muslim based on revelation, you will lose every time.

    They need objective thinking.
    "If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
    "Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
    "Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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