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 Topic: New Year's Eve-teasing

 (Read 11779 times)
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  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #30 - January 07, 2016, 04:29 AM
    i agree lua

    Quote from: osmanthus on January 07, 2016, 03:21 AM
    Funny how the Europeans have been saying Australia should take as many refugees as they do.  whistling2


    what prompted merkel to become so friendly to refugees? i dont believe is out of goodness of her heart so what is it?

    other than educating migrants…which is no guarantee of anything…i dont see a solution.

    where do you think the west is headed wrt muslim immigration?
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #31 - January 07, 2016, 04:31 AM
    I guess this is the age of tunnel visions where on one side students cry racism and cultural appropriation on university campuses because of yoga and on the other side people read an article or a story with the title ''Germany shaken after group of 1,000 men accused of assaulting 90 women during new year celebration'' and conclude 1000 rapists....and the conclusion follows. I'm not referring to people here necessarily, but it seems to me that some critical thought should be involved when assessing information.

    I blame twitter and social media.
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #32 - January 07, 2016, 04:41 AM
    yes…i see the polarisation…its scary. on the one hand…right talking about muslim takeover and eurabia. on other hand…sjws talking about euros being evil, islamophobia…its like everyone lives in their own bubble with ideology insulated from reality.

    skywalker…there were videos of a mob attacking women…think tahrir square a few years back.

    i doubt this kind of a thing has been seen in germany before which is why its fuel on anti-immigrant fire.
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #33 - January 07, 2016, 05:08 AM
    I think I saw that video. The question was even at that time, how does a mob of 100s of men attack a single woman all of a sudden? Do those in the back know even whats going on? Or is it 10 men surrounded by 100s.
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #34 - January 07, 2016, 10:03 AM
    Quote from: Skywalker on January 07, 2016, 04:31 AM
    I guess this is the age of tunnel visions where on one side students cry racism and cultural appropriation on university campuses because of yoga and on the other side people read an article or a story with the title ''Germany shaken after group of 1,000 men accused of assaulting 90 women during new year celebration'' and conclude 1000 rapists....and the conclusion follows. I'm not referring to people here necessarily, but it seems to me that some critical thought should be involved when assessing information.

    I blame twitter and social media.



    Oh man, those students wind me up to no end. They literally said "this isn't about creating an intellectual space, this is about creating a HOME". What do you think university is??

    And to realise that this mentality is also taking place on UK campuses is unreal. I hate that we are in the age of the Permanent Victim (for lack of a better descriptor); my own sister displayed this exact mindset with me in November when I expressed upset over the Paris attacks and questioned her accusing white people of being narrow-minded. She yelled at me and constantly threw words in my mouth, before concluding with "kids today on tumblr are having more nuanced conversations - listen to them!"

    Idiot.
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #35 - January 07, 2016, 11:04 AM
    Just read in local newspaper an article translated from a German newspaper.

    It presents how much the press, the police, the local government and the central government were trying to cover-up these events. Incredible, but certainly not surprising. We've seen these before in other European countries. Not surprisingly when assaulted, many women were called "sluts", and not only those with miniskirts.

    People are outraged now, but soon this kind of stuff will become the norm and people will get used to it.



     
     
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #36 - January 07, 2016, 11:09 AM
    But we shouldn't stand for it - no one should stand for it!! Women in Europe and the UK should be reminded that they have the right to speak out against this and live freely without fear for their lives and their bodies.
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #37 - January 07, 2016, 12:28 PM
    Dear Bolton34 we should do so many things, and yet we are not doing those things.
    For example we should have stood up for freedom to draw everything we like, but we didn't. What newspaper in Europe is drawing Mohammed at the moment? That's the problem with "should". Well you can argue that freedom was never so popular, certainly not like miniskirts...   

     
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #38 - January 07, 2016, 03:54 PM
    Quote from: Bolton34 on January 07, 2016, 10:03 AM

    Oh man, those students wind me up to no end. They literally said "this isn't about creating an intellectual space, this is about creating a HOME". What do you think university is??

    And to realise that this mentality is also taking place on UK campuses is unreal. I hate that we are in the age of the Permanent Victim (for lack of a better descriptor); my own sister displayed this exact mindset with me in November when I expressed upset over the Paris attacks and questioned her accusing white people of being narrow-minded. She yelled at me and constantly threw words in my mouth, before concluding with "kids today on tumblr are having more nuanced conversations - listen to them!"

    Idiot.


    Its the same mechanism that drives a lot of those people who are reacting to this story. Its not just about sjw. More tribalism, more tunnel vision and the result is increased polarization.

    A few months ago, I saw a documentary about cancer and dementia, and how rare/non-existent those diseases were in hunter gatherer societies. The conclusion was that the human body hadn't adapted to the modern way of living. If you have older relatives(70+), they may tell you that things like allergies didn't exist or were rare when they were young. That reminds me of whether or not people are able to assess streams information critically that they find on social media, without tunnel vision and tribalism. Alot of people walking around or sitting with blank stares on their mobile phones. makes me wonder.
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #39 - January 07, 2016, 05:06 PM
    Quote from: Skywalker on January 07, 2016, 03:54 PM
    Alot of people walking around or sitting with blank stares on their mobile phones.


    ...while reading this. Makes me think about my life.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #40 - January 07, 2016, 05:12 PM
    Has this sort of thing been increasing over time in Germany with an increase in immigration? It might just be that this is a one-off, but even if not, I'd say the process of immigration definitely needs to be improved if order for there to be better assimilation. Demonization of Muslim immigrants whole-cloth will create just as much problems in the long run as any current blindness to lack of assimilation.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #41 - January 07, 2016, 05:13 PM
    Quote from: Skywalker on January 07, 2016, 03:43 AM
    Can anyone actually answer how people determine that there were 1000 men who assaulted women rather than 10 or 20,999, 30, 5. Title says ''Germany shaken after group of 1,000 men accused of assaulting 90 women during new year celebration''
    Are there 1000 in custody or 1000 suspects with 10/111/203 or 5 perpetrators?



       Obviously I don't think anyone can say it was exactly 1,000 but there were numerous witnesses , including police officers and it seems clear this was something involving many people , not just a small group.
      There are a few things I find strange about this - What were all these guys doing there in the first place ? Is New Year a big event for muslims/arabs/north africans ? (hope that doesn't sound ignorant/Eurocentric ) Was there some kind of community event nearby?  
    Was it one of those situations where a few people did something and then others saw them get away with it and thought they'd have a go as well ?
     there are quotes from the police referring to the assaults being "planned" and "coordinated". What does this mean ? Was it some kind of flash mob, were people communicating on Twitter ? Or have there been similar incidents there that weren't on such a large scale and didn't get any publicity ?
      And what the fuck  were the police doing ? according to the reports I've seen nobody has yet been arrested. Of course they were obviously outnumbered and couldn't have been expected to get all the culprits , or even to see a lot of what was going on , but not one single arrest ?!
       Whatever went on ,the Germans (and the rest of us) need to take this seriously
    Personally I think Merkel acted on a genuine , humane impulse when she opened the border but she didn't think through the implications. This situation just highlights the fact that we need to put emotions aside long enough to weigh up the practicalities of taking in people and be realistic about just how many newcomers any country can be expected to absorb.
    And we need to be firm in asserting our basic values , like respect for women , and be clear that some things are non-negotiable , whatever your background.
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #42 - January 07, 2016, 06:11 PM
    aife

    Quote
     Obviously I don't think anyone can say it was exactly 1,000 but there were numerous witnesses , including police officers and it seems clear this was something involving many people , not just a small group.

    The issue is not whether the crowd was in 100s or 1000s, but whether they saw a 100s/1000s doing the same thing, which is assaulting women. Say that you're in a crowd with 1000 people,and 20 men surround/follow you to rob you . How do you determine that they were 20 and not 500. Are you able to keep track of their faces in the dark in New year?
    Eitherway there's a large problem with crime among muslim immigrants, including this type of crime. But I doubt that you could find a 100s/1000s of muslim rapists in the same area at the same time.
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #43 - January 07, 2016, 06:14 PM
    I think there are enough witness accounts confirming it was more than 20
    And I believe it happened at a train station , so I would think there was lighting
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #44 - January 07, 2016, 06:47 PM
    aife
    Quote
    I think there are enough witness accounts confirming it was more than 20

    The article posted in the first post says
    Quote
    Police said they had received 90 criminal complaints and quoted witnesses as saying groups of 20-30 young men "who appeared to be of Arab or North African origin" had surrounded victims, assaulted them and in several cases robbed them.

    Unless there were the same eye witnesses that had a helicopter view or similar vantage points, I don't know how someone can calculate the number of men in order to distinguish the groups and what they are doing.


    Quote
    And I believe it happened at a train station , so I would think there was lighting

    The same article says that it was outside the train station
    Quote
    Chancellor Angela Merkel called for a thorough investigation of the "repugnant" attacks, ranging from groping to at least one reported rape, allegedly committed in a large crowd during festivities outside the city's main train station and cathedral.

  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #45 - January 07, 2016, 06:55 PM
    I've never been to Cologne , but I assume an area with a train station and cathedral would have bars , restaurants , taxi ranks etc. , with staff and customers hanging around.
    And street lighting.
           It's fair enough to be worried about exaggeration and scapegoatingetc. , but you seem strangely preoccupied with trying to downplay this incident
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #46 - January 07, 2016, 08:02 PM
    Ralf Jaeger, interior minister for North Rhine-Westphalia:

    "What happens on right-wing platforms and in chatrooms is at least as awful as the acts of those assaulting the women," he said.

    What an asshole... 
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #47 - January 08, 2016, 12:51 AM
    aife

    Quote
    I've never been to Cologne , but I assume an area with a train station and cathedral would have bars , restaurants , taxi ranks etc. , with staff and customers hanging around.
    And street lighting.
           It's fair enough to be worried about exaggeration and scapegoatingetc. , but you seem strangely preoccupied with trying to downplay this incident

     Its not my intention to downplay any of the assaults. Im raising questions about a story which gives a lot of people tunnel vision. I questioned news reports and claims of how judgment of the nr 1000 could be made at night, you said they were in a train station,they were not.
    A 1000 people  committing this type of crime at the same place at the same time(New Years Eve), even if coordinated, would very likely mean that the percentage of Arabs and middle easterners who do these types of assaults are so high that everyone who knows nr Arabs /middle easterners would know a possible sexual assaulter. Especially when you consider the possible number of men from that region that live in Cologne
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Cologne#Population_by_migration_background
     It would be as if about 100000 white new Yorkers lynched a black person all of a sudden at New Years Eve. What would that say about white New Yorkers today?

    If this is true, then expulsion of any of these immigrants that dont hold citizenship and refusal to accept new ones into Europe would seem rational.

    I dont doubt that muslim immigrants, whether Pakistani/Somalis/Turks/Arabs commit these type of crimes at a significantly higher level than the national average(excluding those with immigrant background).  Even immigrant population groups who came with more secular backround, such as Iranians, are found at the top of rape statistics. 1000 men from these groups, even if one time, indicate that government statistics is unreliable,. It would strengthen the argument the government is covering up facts and that the differences in these crimes are even more. And I doubt that.

  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #48 - January 08, 2016, 01:52 AM
    Quote from: Skywalker on January 07, 2016, 06:11 PM
    aife
    The issue is not whether the crowd was in 100s or 1000s, but whether they saw a 100s/1000s doing the same thing, which is assaulting women. Say that you're in a crowd with 1000 people,and 20 men surround/follow you to rob you . How do you determine that they were 20 and not 500. Are you able to keep track of their faces in the dark in New year?
    Eitherway there's a large problem with crime among muslim immigrants, including this type of crime. But I doubt that you could find a 100s/1000s of muslim rapists in the same area at the same time.


    I think they found a hundred in Egypt during the protests. There were ninety rapes in one square.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #49 - January 08, 2016, 01:53 AM
    Quote from: aife on January 07, 2016, 06:55 PM
    I've never been to Cologne , but I assume an area with a train station and cathedral would have bars , restaurants , taxi ranks etc. , with staff and customers hanging around.
    And street lighting.
           It's fair enough to be worried about exaggeration and scapegoatingetc. , but you seem strangely preoccupied with trying to downplay this incident


    Hell, yes. Where there are bars, there are churches. Strange but true.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #50 - January 08, 2016, 02:04 AM
    Quote from: lua on January 07, 2016, 02:44 AM
    Yes, and there should be strict punishments for immigrants who are found to be behaving like this.

    Anyway, there should be no denying that there are some serious cultural issues that need to be worked out--and have needed to be worked out--long before these people became immigrants in some of these communities. For you and I to pretend there isn't is to betray each other (for those of us who contended with it and still might), and for the rest of the women who have to deal with the results of these mentalities that most of us all know.

    To make this a crime of all Muslims and immigrants is also a betrayal, and especially to the Muslims who are truly the ones who can and will have to address these mentalities where they are found.

    I welcome the argument that a huge influx of immigrants may be too difficult for some countries to manage. I hate knowing that this is being used as evidence for unworthiness of these immigrants to be the recipients of the world's mercy in the first place.




    I completely agree with you on this. I don't think it's a reach to say that a great number if not the majority of the refugees are relieved and grateful to be where they are. I feel like it's a disservice to those people/refugees/muslims who actually are seeking to better their lives to be treated as of they are unable to look into their communities and help weed out wrong behaviors.
  • Re: New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #51 - January 08, 2016, 02:13 AM
    Quote from: three on January 08, 2016, 01:52 AM
    I think they found a hundred in Egypt during the protests. There were ninety rapes in one square.

    I know that in Egypt there were gangs, sometimes maybe even payed by the government,  who during the revolution groped women and/or even committed rape. I don't know how they determine the number of perpetrators in those cases either as there were reports of 100s of perpetrators assaulting one woman. How do they determine 100s instead of 20 or 50 etc? There's also a massive problem with sexual harassment and catcalling.

    But I haven't heard of the specific examples you mentioned. Do you have a source, preferably western news source (as much of Egyptian media is unreliable)?


    If a 1000s or 100s of men can sexually assault or rape suddenly in a certain culture, then I can certainly understand Europeans opposing immigrants from such cultures.
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #52 - January 08, 2016, 02:48 AM
    Ullllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
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    lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllX

    Imagine that V is a victim and the rest is a crowd of 500. Someone says a crowd of 500 robbed V. How is that determined from the ground ? How would that be distinguished from a situation of 30 organized criminals following around different victims from the ground and within the crowd?
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #53 - January 08, 2016, 02:59 AM
    Quote from: Skywalker on January 08, 2016, 02:13 AM
    I know that in Egypt there were gangs, sometimes maybe even payed by the government,  who during the revolution groped women and/or even committed rape. I don't know how they determine the number of perpetrators in those cases either as there were reports of 100s of perpetrators assaulting one woman. How do they determine 100s instead of 20 or 50 etc? There's also a massive problem with sexual harassment and catcalling.

    But I haven't heard of the specific examples you mentioned. Do you have a source, preferably western news source (as much of Egyptian media is unreliable)?


    If a 1000s or 100s of men can sexually assault or rape suddenly in a certain culture, then I can certainly understand Europeans opposing immigrants from such cultures.


    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/05/egypt-women-rape-sexual-assault-tahrir-square

    How they determine the number of perps is from witness and victim testimony. There is no one taking down identification numbers. Hundreds is hundreds, and in multiple locations at the same time, can become a thousand.
    You have to understand where these men are coming from.
    Foreign-born men have said to me, in America ¨Look at those girls. Their families do not want them, do not care about them. Why else are they outside, without their father or brothers? Why don´t their families want them, what did they do? You know why they are out here.¨
    And no amount of logical reasoning sways them from this. This is what they know to be true, this is their belief, and certainly a woman from purdah would not know or understand- so I never could convince them, even as a native.
    I am not saying all men from certain places are like this (thank goodness I knew perfectly decent men from the same cities), but I am saying that men from certain places who commit sexual assaults have this mentality.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #54 - January 08, 2016, 03:39 AM
    Not surprised in the least, considering that "Western" women are viewed as whores and immoral, unlike the "good Muslim hijabi" woman.
  • Re: New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #55 - January 08, 2016, 05:32 AM
    Quote from: three on January 08, 2016, 02:59 AM
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/05/egypt-women-rape-sexual-assault-tahrir-square

    How they determine the number of perps is from witness and victim testimony. There is no one taking down identification numbers. Hundreds is hundreds, and in multiple locations at the same time, can become a thousand.


    The article doesn't mention the number of men involved in those sexual assaults, it says that one of the victims was surrounded by hundreds of men(seems to be only men in many of these demonstrations ) while the assault was taking place. At that time there were reports of 100s of thousand or even a million in Tahrir, and there were gangs of predators  that were specifically there to assault women in those crowds, I don't know how you differentiate or implicate the whole crowd.

    The whole problem of sexual harassment in those socieities makes sense though.

    Quote
    You have to understand where these men are coming from.
    Foreign-born men have said to me, in America ?Look at those girls. Their families do not want them, do not care about them. Why else are they outside, without their father or brothers? Why don?t their families want them, what did they do? You know why they are out here.?
    And no amount of logical reasoning sways them from this. This is what they know to be true, this is their belief, and certainly a woman from purdah would not know or understand- so I never could convince them, even as a native.

    I won't argue with the fact that this kind of mentality is what can make sexual assaults and rape much more common in a society.
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #56 - January 08, 2016, 07:00 PM
    A good article by Maajid Nawaz (thanks Bolton34):
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/01/08/why-we-can-t-stay-silent-on-germany-s-mass-sex-assaults.html
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #57 - January 08, 2016, 07:01 PM
    Quote from: Bolton34 on January 08, 2016, 03:39 AM
    Not surprised in the least, considering that "Western" women are viewed as whores and immoral, unlike the "good Muslim hijabi" woman.


    But for all that talk about the "good Muslim hijabi", that does not stop her from being sexually assaulted as well if she dares to leave her house unaccompanied.
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #58 - January 08, 2016, 07:10 PM
    Exactly.

    I do morbidly wonder how many apologists will try to excuse this horror with "colonialism lol".
  • New Year's Eve-teasing
     Reply #59 - January 09, 2016, 01:48 AM
    Honor culture is not Islamic. It is perpetuated by Islam, as it is by any misogynistic system, but to think of it as an Islamic custom does disservice to the women and men suffering honor cultures under other ideologies.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
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