Correct me if I am wrong but Islam does not allow me the right to be an aethiest or a buddhist, or be free from religion all together, or to have a beer, or go to a Music concert, or go out with out with a burqa and male guardian, or reject and criticise Islam, or go out wiht male and female frrinds to a restaurant wearing western clothes. Under an Islamic authority all this will be enforced on people by the sword. If that is not a violation of Human rights on every possible level I do not know what is. This is without going into killing the apostates and blasphemers, stoning adulterers to death, fighting disbelievers to make allahs word the highest. Initiating hostilities against communites and taking their women as sex slaves.
Depends on which muslims you get. The most conservative ones will say this. No music, no men no freedom of religion.
I believe in Islam though and as far as most (excluding the far right of muslims) are concerned I'm a muslim but i don't agree that the state, Islamic or secular has any say in the actions of a person. That's between them and Allah Frankly. Nonetheless of course living under such conditions is not a utopia, but an orwellian type nightmare.
Hi ElRafa and welcome back to the forum
If we go back to your issue, you have to know that ummah.com and the Muslims you've mentioned are a more or less general representation of Muslims who keep to the traditional interpretation of Islam. Yes, there is ijma' as far as I know about the execution of the (male) apostate. Denying a known and established ijma' is also according to ijma' (lol) an act of kufr. Slavery was never abolished, and can never be abolished, because it is an intrinsic part of Islam. It is even a part of the most basic acts of worship and fiqh. The idea that Islam intended to abolish it is an after-construction made by those with a conscience. If "Islam" (or rather, Allah) wanted to make away with it, he would've done it like he did with alcohol for example.
If you are a person who wants to "go back" to the scriptures and treat the Quran and its beliefs as a "purist", that is unfortunately what the Quran teaches. There's no way around it. No mental gymnastics and intellectual dishonesty can save the Quran from what it is; at times a pretty homophobic, sexist, and really horrible piece of literature. But the Quran also contains passages that can be inspiring, and we don't have to toss them out as well just because they share the same pages with other more nasty passages.
People who come to a point where they cannot accept the traditional interpretation of Islam take different paths. Some of us leave Islam altogether, either becoming atheists or accepting other beliefs. Some become Quranists, "agnostic Muslims", "progressives", or "modernists". Or they just simply adopt a personal interpretation of Islam, whatever that means to them, and don't care about what others think. I know a lady who comes from a Muslim background, but doesn't view herself as a Muslim. She's spiritual, believes in a personal god, and takes spiritual inspiration from all sources. Among them Islamic. It works for her.
However, as a personal opinion, holding fast to the idea that Quran is the literal, unchanged word of god, will take you nowhere and cannot be compatible with your own standards for human rights.
My belief was that for the 7th century, Islam was revolutionary from a social justice sense, I don't think many honest historians refute this. And whilst I believe the Qur'an to be the word of God, I make the distinction that it was the word of God revealed to 7th Century Arabs, our understanding of what 'righteousness, good deeds' which the Qur'an refers to, as well as 'immorality and oppression' has changed considerably.
I guess what I believe in, and what many of the brothers and sisters on Ummah.com don't, is the separation of what is Islam and what is 7th Century Arabia. I'm just upset about being called a Kafir for it, so i'm seeking a second perspective from you guys.
That said, I have evolved my thoughts a bit to know that Islam is not only what’s in the books. If Muslims are going to move beyond the sort of bigotry and intolerance that exists in their scriptures, it’ll take some honest soul searching and dialogue – something the fundamentalists and literalists don’t want to see happen.
But it is happening now. If more of (us) can make that stand and make that change, the line between “Muslim” and Ex-Muslim will become thinner and vaguer.
We’re all from the same background at the end of the day and forged through the same fire. I’ve never worshipped another God besides Allah, even if I don't believe now, and I’ve never defined myself religiously against any other religion apart from Islam.
So, if what the world calls Islam catches up with our values, then that will be Islam – not what was written in a book by some dudes 1400 years ago. And I’d be a “Muslim” as much as anyone else from my background.
Yeah exactly, I think we need a bigger tent under which we can fit more people within Islam. The traditionalists and literalists deem everyone who does not agree with their infallible, perfect interpretation a non muslim or an apostate, we need to change this culture.
To me, anyone who says La Illaha IlAlllah, wa muhammadu rasul Allah is a muslim. period. Likewise, reading the Qur'an, i never got the impression that anyone who didn't believe was a Kafir. Kufr means to deny or cover, and I discussed with some more progressive brothers from Turkey and we determined a Kafir had to be someone who knew the truth but denied it for worldly reasons. I.e They believed in Islam but didn't want to take shahada, discouraged by having to give charity, manumit slaves, be kind, just etc... Nonetheless, even Ibn Taymiyyah believed as I do that divine amnesty would perhaps be granted to everyone, and that any punishment would be merely temporary. Because we know above all else that Allah SWT is merciful and Just. These qualities need no contextualisation as the other verses and hadith do, thus i believe them to be the most transcendent messages. The fellas on Ummah.com didnt take so well to that unfortunantly.
Mashallah! Well written btw... really enjoyed your post
Hi ElRafa
Do you mind me asking what your username on Ummah was? I used to post there then ended up leaving after my apostasy (made a thread about it as well). One of the things that led me here was the rape of slave women; I just don't see a scenario in which a woman who is owned and therefore has restricted autonomy could have the capacity to consent. This along with other uncomfortable facts led me to start searching for evidence that Islam is not the truth.
International law is my area of study as well at the moment
. You love Islam and other Muslims love their religion and find peace and happiness in it. Islam can inspire people to be charitable and be kind to others, I don't deny this. Depending on your character and background you can interpret Islam to be a religion that encourages peace and love. I am not trying to change your views but would like to explain things from my perspective.
On the other hand the people who condone acts of violence towards innocent people as well as slavery and other abhorrent acts are not doing so contrary to Islamic teachings. It is true that a slave woman has no right to refuse sex with her master, according to the four schools of thought. These views are supported by authentic Hadiths and the Quran explicitly allows sex with "right-hand possessions". In this day and age slavery is viewed internationally as a violation of one of most basic human rights; the right to liberty. Furthermore rape is being increasingly accepted as an act of torture, and another basic human right happens to be freedom from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment. Some Muslims say that Islam came to eventually abolish slavery, which is why it encouraged the manumission of slaves. However there is no evidence in the Islamic scriptures that Islam viewed slavery as bad practice. Other widespread practices such as the consumption of alcohol had been forbidden in Islam, why is it that the same could not be done in the case of slavery?
There are practices other than slavery which are most certainly incompatible with international human rights, I will get back to you when I have the chance
I used the same username which was probably not a wise idea, considering they read this forum. nonetheless i have nothing to fear really... I'm a muslim and I know that, my Imam knows that, I don't care what these angry kids say.
Also don't lose hope, me and id say about 80-90% of the Muslims i've met are abhorred by the idea of rape and slavery. just the minority is very vocal
And its true what you say. Islam says its a good thing to free slaves, this is undoubtable, but i feel It should have been made clearly Haram. Nonetheless, scholars tell me that Islam and Mohammed (PBUH) realised that the fabric of society could not be altered so drastically, most of these countries were slave economies. However Islam sought to reduce the number of slaves by promoting manumission, and giving rights to slaves. As i mentioned,
for the time...very profound human rights lesson, nonetheless our understandings have changed. I am shocked to see muslims still condoning Slavery in a religion that i found to be so opposed to tyranny and oppression. Also i'm not sure, but i Have a feeling there's something buried in the Qur'an about consent being needed, nonetheless i'm not sure. Wishful thinking perhaps...
Topic: Is islam compatible with modern human rights?