Is islam compatible with modern human rights?

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Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
Reply #30 - January 15, 2016, 12:23 PM

ElRafa it took me two years of doubting to finally come to terms that certain things in Islam were unacceptable. Islam had been such a huge part of my life and it was extremely hard to let go and accept that some of what is accepted as halal in Islam clashed with my own moral compass.

Muhammad was not the worst man who ever lived but he was far from perfect. Like you suggested in your post (we should not judge a man who lived in the 7th century by today's standards), he was a man of his time. There is actually an interpretation of Surat Al-Ahzab by a prominent scholar named Al-Qurtubi about the special privileges that Muhammad had as a prophet. Among those was a fifth of the share in the war booty, as many wives as he wanted and if he wanted to marry a woman who was already married her husband had to divorce her. I can link you the tafseer if you're an Arabic speaker.

I said that I would talk about other issues with regards to Islamic teachings and incompatibility with human rights. When it comes to the treatment of women and religious minorities, Shariah may have worked in the 7th century. In modern times, however we are more aware of the fact that sexism and other forms of discrimination are wrong. When someone believes that the Quran is infallible, they are going to have a hard time supporting equality for women and religious minorities while claiming that this is Islamic.

Islam equates two female witnesses to one male, gives women half of the inheritance share that it gives men, makes blood money for women half of what it is for men (it's even cheaper to castrate a man than it is to kill a woman, according to some schools of thought). When it comes to marriage, divorce and many other aspects of life the rights of women are far inferior. This does, in essence violate the right to freedom from discrimination on the basis of sex. The system of having to live under a guardianship of a mahram also restricts freedom of movement.
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Reply #31 - January 15, 2016, 02:27 PM

Quote from: ElRafa on January 15, 2016, 07:03 AM
- I have neither the time or patience to respond in depth again, you didn't read what I wrote and you're clearly essentializing all muslims.
I never said Hindus and buddhists and christians were stupid. you assume this because every post you make in response to mine seems to assume that I am like the muslims in 'your country'. Are the muslims there the same as turkish, kosovar, kazakh, albanian, cham, white convert, bengali, hui and sub saharan muslims? No i doubt it. yet you speak on the entirety of Islam.

It's not only about you to be honest, but more of what kind of personality would a community full of muslims develop? What kind of personality would anyone develop if they're taught that

1. Their religion is 100% perfect, and God is always with them.
2. Everybody else, Christian, Jews, and especially Hindus, Buddhist and Pagans are misguided at best, or disbelievers at worst.
3. The holy text says the worst thing about disbelievers, and some snide here and there about Jews and Christians.
4. Threat of hell fire, to the point of pouring boiling water into your throat.
5. This prophet from 1400years ago, ALL HIS BEHAVIOURS are perfect.

Muslims in my country are not much different in "muslimness", really. Cultural differences exist, and poverty/education also matters, that's right but at the end of the day, that kind of mentality (distinct muslim mentality) always exist.

Quote
- I never said the Islamic empire was the greatest ever but 'the greatest the world had YET seen' which is true scientifically, philosophically etc. for the 8th-11th century... if you note that i said yet, you would see I have no such belief of the Islamic world today. At that time, compared to the rest of the world and for many years later, it was the most advanced civilisation.

Urgh... just no. What is even the criteria for this? I mean the Chinese developed literacy far earlier and produced scientific discoveries, too. Arab-muslim empire was one of the big ones, very successful just like many other empires. But at the end of the day every empire dies, now that it's lost, the ummah still like to dream about "those glorious days" when muslims "ruled the earth and there was peace". Sweet. Baby. Jesus. It's extremely biased.

Quote
And I agree with you, of course Ideas must compete on even grounds, Idk why you assume i don't? Of course because of certain muslims, but they don't speak for me and i don't speak for them.

Yes, you might not be one of them, but really I'm speaking about the danger of this kind of community. Your earlier posts say you believe in Caliphate, the ummah, etc. In this kind of community, ideas don't compete fairly.

If you still believe that Quran is the perfect word of God, then nothing can compare to Quran and Quran will always have best ideas.

Here's the thing, unless you can convince majority traditional muslims to adopt more tolerant views, then "Islam" will always be represented by those who hold traditional interpretations. The problems of Islam will still exist then. I hope you don't just wash your hands off of this, and then say that Islam is 100% without any blame even when majority of its followers would still choose traditional views.
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Reply #32 - January 15, 2016, 03:09 PM

Quote from: ElRafa on January 15, 2016, 12:41 AM
Actually its one of the things I admire about Islam that we don't try and anthropomorphise god, I hate going into church or seeing christian paintings of god as a big bearded white guy. I believe strongly that the divine is ultimately inconceivable. I also like how youve taken this one step further. There are western muslims who are pushing the whole, 'divinely inspired not divinely written' line... what are your thoughts on that?

I find the entire idea of a “divine book” problematic precisely because it is limited by human speech. Human speech will never be able to communicate something as mindboggling as what a “God” would have to be, and the more descriptive you get, the more damage you do. The Qur’an gets very descriptive, and always from the viewpoint of a 7th century Arab. (The Sikhs do a much better job at avoiding this, IMO.)

I find the God described in the Qur’an to be incredibly anthropomorphic. He gets angry. He gets pleased. He has hands and feet. He has a face. He has a throne. He talks. And so on. Now, of course, Islamic scholars have debated how these attributes should be understood for centuries, with theologians taking positions ranging from denying them all together, to interpreting them metaphorically, to affirming them without asking how it all actually works.

The problem with all of this, though, is that whatever you do with those descriptions, they are all still human descriptions. They can only go as far as the human mind that conceived them. It is up to the individual to conceptualize what they might mean. In seventh century Arabia, a God that presided above the 7 heavens from atop his throne and sent his wrath upon the wicked through storms and earthquakes might have been a beneficial image for a primitive, tribal people – helping them to understand the gravity of this idea Muhammad had conjured.

But now we are left with people in the 21st century clinging to belief in this petty, small, outdated notion of God that does no one any good. If there is some sort of a God, then I’d have to believe that it truly is akbar – more than anything we could possibly fathom.

So, if you are asking me if I believe that whatever it is that might have brought creation into existence actually said things like, “Oh ye prophet, we have made lawful for you…any believing woman who grants herself to the prophet…” or, “Then, when Zaid had relinquished his desire of her, we married you to her,” or, “(staying at the prophet’s house too long) used to annoy the prophet, but he was (too) shy of you (to inform you),” then absolutely not. That is human speech through and through.

But maybe it’s a bit like The Wizard of Oz. Muhammad is there, speaking through the microphone and powering the machine as Allah appears to speak through the smoke and lights. All the Munchkins believe that they’re hearing the voice of God and fall in reverence. But maybe the people of the time needed that. Maybe they needed to know they had the courage to take on Persia and Rome, or the heart to stop their petty tribal feuding, or the brains to run an empire.

But it was still all their doing. If you want to say that they were inspired by God, then they got that inspiration themselves.
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Reply #33 - January 15, 2016, 03:38 PM

^And even all that is complete nonsense just for the sake of the conversation, really. Musings of a guy who can't seem to keep away from thinking about this kinda stuff.
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Reply #34 - January 16, 2016, 12:56 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on January 15, 2016, 11:18 AM
ElRafa with that statement you are saying as if you don't know how to read and write ., Once you know how to read, you don't need to owe your faith to any one.

Once you grow up and know how to read and think, being Believer you owe your faith to that allah god, and the book that describe allah god which is Quran, and additional texts of Islam such as Hadith/Sunnah plus Islamic history right from the beginning of birth of alleged Prophet of Islam to the present day.

Come on man this is the same thing the Salafis give me with the whole "why do you follow a sheikh just read the texts" bullshit.

I'm not a hafiz al quran so i take my knowledge from people whose knowledge of Islam is superior to mine. This will be the case until such time where I am equipped to deal with the texts myself and obtain ijtihad. Most muslims do this... ever heard of a madhab?
And its not blind following, I disagree with all 3 on certain issues. There are things i agree with Haitham al Haddad, Yasir Qadhi, Wesam Charkawi, Ibn Taymiyyah, Ali, Masroor Ahmad, Shi'a clerics and hundreds of people on. I just feel that those aforementioned 3 inspired my faith.

Why are you so keen to tarnish me as an illiterate minor? This is youtube comments section type stuff
"grow up and learn to read and think".
Seriously man

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Reply #35 - January 16, 2016, 01:17 PM

Quote from: Helaine on January 15, 2016, 02:27 PM
It's not only about you to be honest, but more of what kind of personality would a community full of muslims develop? What kind of personality would anyone develop if they're taught that

1. Their religion is 100% perfect, and God is always with them.
2. Everybody else, Christian, Jews, and especially Hindus, Buddhist and Pagans are misguided at best, or disbelievers at worst.
3. The holy text says the worst thing about disbelievers, and some snide here and there about Jews and Christians.
4. Threat of hell fire, to the point of pouring boiling water into your throat.
5. This prophet from 1400years ago, ALL HIS BEHAVIOURS are perfect.

Muslims in my country are not much different in "muslimness", really. Cultural differences exist, and poverty/education also matters, that's right but at the end of the day, that kind of mentality (distinct muslim mentality) always exist.

Urgh... just no. What is even the criteria for this? I mean the Chinese developed literacy far earlier and produced scientific discoveries, too. Arab-muslim empire was one of the big ones, very successful just like many other empires. But at the end of the day every empire dies, now that it's lost, the ummah still like to dream about "those glorious days" when muslims "ruled the earth and there was peace". Sweet. Baby. Jesus. It's extremely biased.

Yes, you might not be one of them, but really I'm speaking about the danger of this kind of community. Your earlier posts say you believe in Caliphate, the ummah, etc. In this kind of community, ideas don't compete fairly.

If you still believe that Quran is the perfect word of God, then nothing can compare to Quran and Quran will always have best ideas.

Here's the thing, unless you can convince majority traditional muslims to adopt more tolerant views, then "Islam" will always be represented by those who hold traditional interpretations. The problems of Islam will still exist then. I hope you don't just wash your hands off of this, and then say that Islam is 100% without any blame even when majority of its followers would still choose traditional views.

I guess i am slightly biased towards the old Islamic empires, I just like the idea of us being the scientists and the europeans kicking around in the mud
Im european btw
Anyway... How times have changed how many nobel prizes have we won lately? believe me if there was the nobel prize 1050 AD we'd have been killing it.

Inshallah we're building some bridges here Helaine:
I disagree on the notion of a specific muslim mentality. The christians, Nazi's, Hindus and communists all would have displayed similar behaviours to those which you are describing. The phenomenon you are deciding is dogmatism, it exists widespread across many faiths and ideologies. I imagine however in your society the most abundant form of dogmatism is Islamic and truly i understand your frustration and rejection of that. Dogmatism and arrogance must be combatted and defeated in its entirety through education and the equipment of the young with critical thinking skills. Intellectual humility is the way forwards in my opinion, and Helaine i promise you i will do what I can... to not make the traditionalists change their view, because anyone can think what they want, But what we need is for them to respect the truth and ideals of others, Inshallah. This should be the task of all educated people. However what too often happens is people reject dogmatism with more dogmatism, and that leads to escalation and conflict.
Would you agree with me there?

Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
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Reply #36 - January 16, 2016, 01:33 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on January 15, 2016, 03:09 PM
I find the entire idea of a “divine book” problematic precisely because it is limited by human speech. Human speech will never be able to communicate something as mindboggling as what a “God” would have to be, and the more descriptive you get, the more damage you do. The Qur’an gets very descriptive, and always from the viewpoint of a 7th century Arab. (The Sikhs do a much better job at avoiding this, IMO.)

I find the God described in the Qur’an to be incredibly anthropomorphic. He gets angry. He gets pleased. He has hands and feet. He has a face. He has a throne. He talks. And so on. Now, of course, Islamic scholars have debated how these attributes should be understood for centuries, with theologians taking positions ranging from denying them all together, to interpreting them metaphorically, to affirming them without asking how it all actually works.

The problem with all of this, though, is that whatever you do with those descriptions, they are all still human descriptions. They can only go as far as the human mind that conceived them. It is up to the individual to conceptualize what they might mean. In seventh century Arabia, a God that presided above the 7 heavens from atop his throne and sent his wrath upon the wicked through storms and earthquakes might have been a beneficial image for a primitive, tribal people – helping them to understand the gravity of this idea Muhammad had conjured.

But now we are left with people in the 21st century clinging to belief in this petty, small, outdated notion of God that does no one any good. If there is some sort of a God, then I’d have to believe that it truly is akbar – more than anything we could possibly fathom.

So, if you are asking me if I believe that whatever it is that might have brought creation into existence actually said things like, “Oh ye prophet, we have made lawful for you…any believing woman who grants herself to the prophet…” or, “Then, when Zaid had relinquished his desire of her, we married you to her,” or, “(staying at the prophet’s house too long) used to annoy the prophet, but he was (too) shy of you (to inform you),” then absolutely not. That is human speech through and through.

But maybe it’s a bit like The Wizard of Oz. Muhammad is there, speaking through the microphone and powering the machine as Allah appears to speak through the smoke and lights. All the Munchkins believe that they’re hearing the voice of God and fall in reverence. But maybe the people of the time needed that. Maybe they needed to know they had the courage to take on Persia and Rome, or the heart to stop their petty tribal feuding, or the brains to run an empire.

But it was still all their doing. If you want to say that they were inspired by God, then they got that inspiration themselves.

I humbly admit I lack the eloquence or brain power to match or respond to this.

I've truly never thought back the other way about it. We always think God down to us, not the other way. Do you think that God was like a phase in Humanity's development that as we progress we will no longer need? I imagine future humans, if our species doesn't suffocate itself with toxic gasses that is, looking back on 'the religious era' in a nostalgic yet belittling way.
Islam definitely bound the Arabs and transformed them, however do you think a strong political leader minus a religion could have done the same? Cengiz did a similar thing in mongolia and in reflection he did so without the need to institute a belief system or eternal moral code. Do you think Islam was integral to the Arab expansion? What if Mohammed had just adopted eastern christianity for example, and used this as his fabric for uniting the tribes? Would history have really been so different?

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Reply #37 - January 16, 2016, 01:42 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on January 15, 2016, 03:09 PM
.........................

So, if you are asking me if I believe that whatever it is that might have brought creation into existence actually said things like, “Oh ye prophet, we have made lawful for you…any believing woman who grants herself to the prophet…” or, “Then, when Zaid had relinquished his desire of her, we married you to her,” or, “(staying at the prophet’s house too long) used to annoy the prophet, but he was (too) shy of you (to inform you),” then absolutely not. That is human speech through and through.................

"That is the worst possible allahgodvoodoo doll alleged revelation in Quran., It is pathetic to even imagine such statements are from Allah/God... scoundrels in early Islam added such rubbish in to simple Quran way after the death of the first Prophet of Islam."

let me put those verses here along with THE WORST CHAPTER OF QURAN...

Quote
033.001 : O Prophet! Fear Allah,..... verily Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom.

033.002 : .......Allah is well aware with all that ye do.
.
033.003 : O Prophet! put thy trust in Allah, and Allah will dispose disposer your affairs.

033.004: Allah has not made for any man two hearts within him; nor has He made your wives whose backs you liken to the backs of your mothers as your mothers, nor has He made those whom you assert to be your sons your real sons; these are the words of your mouths; and Allah speaks the truth and He guides to the way.

033.006: The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers. ....

033.009: O ye who believe! Remember the Grace of Allah, ....................

033.010: Behold! they came on you from above you and from below you...........

033.021: Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him..........

033.028: ................: O Prophet! say to your wives: If you desire this world's life ..............

033.030: O wives of the prophet! whoever of you commits an open indecency, the punishment shall be increased to her doubly.............

033.032: O wives of the Prophet! you are not like any other of the women..............

033.033: ........: And stay in your houses and do not display your finery .......................

033.034 :..... And recite what is rehearsed to you in your homes .............

033.037: And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor: Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light, and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him. But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed.

033.038: There is no harm in the Prophet doing that which Allah has ordained for him; such has been the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and the command of Allah is a decree that is made absolute:

033.050: O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; ..............

033.051: You may put off whom you please of them, and you may take to you whom you please, and whom you desire of those whom you had separated provisionally; no blame attaches to you; this is most proper, so that their eyes may be cool and they may not grieve, and that they should be pleased, all of them with what you give them, and Allah knows what is in your hearts; and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing.

033.052: It is not allowed to you to take women afterwards, nor that you should change them for other wives, though their beauty be pleasing to you, except what your right hand possesses and Allah is Watchful over all things.

033.053 : O you who believe! do not enter the houses of the Prophet unless permission is given to you for a meal, not waiting for its cooking being finished-- but when you are invited, enter, and when you have taken the food, then disperse-- not seeking to listen to talk; surely this gives the Prophet trouble, but he forbears from you, and Allah does not forbear from the truth And when you ask of them any goods, ask of them from behind a curtain; this is purer for your hearts and (for) their hearts; and it does not behove you that you should give trouble to the Messenger of Allah, nor that you should marry his wives after him ever; surely this is grievous in the sight of Allah.

33.056 : Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet..............

033.057: Surely (as for) those who speak evil things of Allah and His Messenger, Allah has cursed them in this world and the here after, and He has prepared for them a chastisement bringing disgrace......

033.059 : O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments...............

033.060 I: Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them.................

033.061: They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy).

Look at that junk.. that is word of Allah?? word of God?? that is fucking word of Pimp of a sex obsessed DIRTY WARLORD ..

And look at this whole chapter.. 12 verses AT-TAHRIM ...PROHIBITION.. Revealed At: MADINA whatever..wherever

Quote
AT-TAHRIM Revealed At: MADINA

066.001 : O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

066.002 : Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths and Allah is your Protector, and He is the Knowing the Wise.

066.003 : And when the prophet secretly communicated a piece of information to one of his wives-- but when she informed (others) of it, and Allah made him to know it, he made known part of it and avoided part; so when he informed her of it, she said: Who informed you of this? He said: The Knowing, the one Aware, informed me.

066.004: If ye two turn in repentance to Him, your hearts are indeed so inclined; But if ye back up each other against him, truly Allah is his Protector, and Gabriel, and (every) righteous one among those who believe,- and furthermore, the angels - will back (him) up....

066.005 : Maybe, his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient, penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins.

066.006: O you who believe! save yourselves and your families from a fire whose fuel is men and stones;....

066.007: O you who disbelieve! do not urge excuses today..........

066.008 : O ye who believe! Turn to Allah with sincere repentance..........

066.009: O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be hard against them; and their abode is hell; and evil is the resort.

066.010 : Allah sets forth an example to those who disbelieve the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut:........

066.011 : And Allah sets forth an example to those who believe the wife of Firon ............

066.012 : And Marium, the daughter of Imran........

what kind of nonsense is that ??..

Quote
O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you......
Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths ....
if he divorce you, allah will give him in your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient, penitent, adorers,..... virgins.

If that is word of Allah? If that warlord divorces his wife he gets Virgins?? is that what god supposed to say?? How about this verse??

Ohyee beleivers ., Ohyee followers of Islam ..
Put such verses in Trash ..
be pure in your words and in your actions.
Use Golden Rule at every second of your life to reach the heavens of Allah ...

How about that?

And why didn't allah put this shit of chapter 33 and chapter 66 in to hadith? then I would out rightly threw that out of Islam yet redo Quran without much trouble. Rubbish sayings of some rag head., such verses are nothing to do with the 1st Muhammad .. The Prophet/preacher/teacher of Islam.....

Mock the fools and move on........

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #38 - January 17, 2016, 07:54 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on January 13, 2016, 01:40 PM

To be honest i lack both the time and energy to get into a back and forth argument about the verses you produced. You have made your point, and i will consider and discuss with people who know more about this sort of thing than me. Nonetheless, despite my intellectual incapacity, i did come across a video of Yasir Qadhi, its only short, but he goes through the claim you are making, and is fairly clear, precise and in my opinion convincing in his answer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVMVEG7S53c
Although i'm sensing you definitely don't accept the traditional narrative of the Prophets life, and thus i suppose you will discard any such retort as irrelevant. What exactly is your theory about the prophets life btw, could you clarify?
Jazakallah

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Reply #39 - January 17, 2016, 10:18 AM

Quote from: ElRafa on January 16, 2016, 01:17 PM
I guess i am slightly biased towards the old Islamic empires, I just like the idea of us being the scientists and the europeans kicking around in the mud
Im european btw
Anyway... How times have changed how many nobel prizes have we won lately? believe me if there was the nobel prize 1050 AD we'd have been killing it.

Not my first time meeting someone who dislike their own race

The current apologist trend is just... tragic, continuously comparing the past when they were good vs that one civilization that were doing really bad (according to apologists). Most of the history was pretty much skewed, just like how white historians of the past would see other culture/history with white bias, resulting in crude/low surface understanding of Asian History, Orientalism, etc. It's much better now, but what you are doing is the same thing. You are seeing the history with so much bias. It's just so obvious that the current apologia is focused on pure vendetta against Europeans - because "fuck the west" mentality. And because they thought that they were better than the west in the past (their version of history) then they could deal a huge blow about how low the west used to be - and how high their position used to be (again, according to apologists, muslims > europeans back then). This is all done by western muslims too, living on Europe, trashing the host country that accept them with open arms. I mean really! If they were doing this anywhere else nobody would think twice of kicking the rude guests out.

Quote
Inshallah we're building some bridges here Helaine:
I disagree on the notion of a specific muslim mentality. The christians, Nazi's, Hindus and communists all would have displayed similar behaviours to those which you are describing. The phenomenon you are deciding is dogmatism, it exists widespread across many faiths and ideologies. I imagine however in your society the most abundant form of dogmatism is Islamic and truly i understand your frustration and rejection of that. Dogmatism and arrogance must be combatted and defeated in its entirety through education and the equipment of the young with critical thinking skills. Intellectual humility is the way forwards in my opinion, and Helaine i promise you i will do what I can... to not make the traditionalists change their view, because anyone can think what they want, But what we need is for them to respect the truth and ideals of others, Inshallah. This should be the task of all educated people. However what too often happens is people reject dogmatism with more dogmatism, and that leads to escalation and conflict.
Would you agree with me there?

It would require muslims to say that Quran is not perfect, muslims are not the "best" (disbelievers can be cool too, and there's no group that is "automatically the best"), Mo was flawed and could be wrong, etc. This is really a blashpemy in traditional Islam mindset.

But progressive/agnostic/liberal Islam seems to be on the rise so we can be optimistic
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Reply #40 - January 17, 2016, 10:34 AM

Quote from: Helaine on January 15, 2016, 02:27 PM

Progressives are on the rise... however a fitnah of this age apparently

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?461300-Are-progressive-Muslims-A-fitnah-of-this-age&s=31654fdfb2b75f411ed3f8cb6e76c7bd

This thread upset me a fair bit though, you'll notice my posting if you go through it. Drowned out by the bleating voices of fascists.

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Reply #41 - January 17, 2016, 11:40 AM

Reading ummah thread makes me want to puke.

We came to Britain and there are so many right-wing bigots who hate brown people! This is islamophobia + racism! Let's vote for the left wing... Meanwhile, we want to kill anyone who leaves Islam (but anybody who leave their former religion to convert to Islam is fine). We want economic stability and tolerance... but we don't want to be tolerant or create stability for disbelievers!

The irony...

For sure, that would convince anyone that violence in muslim country have nothing to do with Islam.
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Reply #42 - January 17, 2016, 05:36 PM

Quote from: Helaine on January 17, 2016, 10:18 AM
The current apologist trend is just... tragic, continuously comparing the past when they were good vs that one civilization that were doing really bad (according to apologists). Most of the history was pretty much skewed, just like how white historians of the past would see other culture/history with white bias, resulting in crude/low surface understanding of Asian History, Orientalism, etc. It's much better now, but what you are doing is the same thing. You are seeing the history with so much bias. It's just so obvious that the current apologia is focused on pure vendetta against Europeans - because "fuck the west" mentality. And because they thought that they were better than the west in the past (their version of history) then they could deal a huge blow about how low the west used to be - and how high their position used to be (again, according to apologists, muslims > europeans back then).

Well said.

Persia was nothing before Islam. Greek, Roman, Egyptian scholarship in no way coloured Islam.

And Europe was ruled by barbarians like this in the year Arabs brought civilization to Andalucia.
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Reply #43 - January 18, 2016, 10:56 AM

@ElRafa.

You have to be biased to say the caliphate was the greatest empire yet. And I really don't know how to describe the sentence: "the Islamic Empire as the best in driving sciences and philosophy". The Islamic Empire is nothing in these fields compared to the Greeks and the Romans.

They had access to all achievements of Greeks and Romans in these fields and they did almost nothing with them, at best they transferred them to the West, where they were lost for hundreds of years.

Look how West used them and what they have achieved and how Islam used them and what Islam is today. And you have to ask yourself, what is the main reason that Islamic world was left so much behind given they had access to the same info. Any clue why?
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Reply #44 - January 18, 2016, 01:30 PM
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Reply #45 - January 18, 2016, 01:37 PM

Quote from: nbhb on January 18, 2016, 10:56 AM
@ElRafa.

You have to be biased to say the caliphate was the greatest empire yet. And I really don't know how to describe the sentence: "the Islamic Empire as the best in driving sciences and philosophy". The Islamic Empire is nothing in these fields compared to the Greeks and the Romans.

They had access to all achievements of Greeks and Romans in these fields and they did almost nothing with them, at best they transferred them to the West, where they were lost for hundreds of years.

Look how West used them and what they have achieved and how Islam used them and what Islam is today. And you have to ask yourself, what is the main reason that Islamic world was left so much behind given they had access to the same info. Any clue why?

If you come to any Islamic country and ask that question, the reply will be as follow. We Muslims created the modern civilisation and had helped the west to develop. It was us -Muslims- under the light of Islam who spread knowledge and science in the whole earth. However, when we neglected our Islam and the Quran, Allah punished us but we still are the best
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Reply #46 - January 18, 2016, 01:59 PM

To understand how Muslims are controlled by their Quran, pls let me tell that story. I worked at an Islamic private school at London for one year.
The headteacher was wearing Niqb (veil), she never let you see her face or shake hands with men. She was so strict with Niqab and prayer.
I asked her why so strict? She replied I obeyed Allah and followed the Islamic rules blindly.

I believe in freedom , you are free to adopt and do whatever you like.
OK it is up to you as you are comfortable. But I never felt comfortable.
One day I found out that she the headteacher with other female teachers - all wore niqab- parents faked document to steal the UK child benefits.
They used the school as a cover to get the money in their own pockets.
Even the female teachers used the 16 hours /week work rule to get money and housing from UK government. Namely, it was a corrupted place.
I wondered and asked them why you did that?
They opened the Quran and showed me many verses about the disbelievers and how we were ordered to fight them, take their women and their money because they are buying missiles and weapons to kill our Muslim brothers.
I found out not only that school but most Muslims in the west have those feelings in their hearts. I want to live in the west to collect money as much as you can but I will follow the Quran blindly even if it is not true.
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Reply #47 - January 18, 2016, 02:23 PM

Ahh the benefits... Practically paying people for not working in most of the cases.

Many in the West, especially in Europe and especially leftists, still don't understand the failure of this system.
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Reply #48 - January 18, 2016, 02:59 PM

The system itself, or at least the idea behind it, is not a failure. Unfortunately, for various reasons, the loopholes in the system has the last couple of decades been so much misused that trust for the system has been eradicated among the general masses, who for the most part do not misuse social benefits. It's the small minority that seems to ruin it for everyone else. Like it usually is.

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
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Reply #49 - January 18, 2016, 03:24 PM

NO. Encouraging people not to work is stupid. And even this is not the purpose, it's inevitable a consequence. That minority will grow. You better spend these money to help these people to find a job or on education or other social measures.
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Reply #50 - January 18, 2016, 05:46 PM

No, nbhb your logic is faulty. I worked in paying Unemployment Benefits for 32 years so I know something about it. I don't want to hijack the thread but I'm happy to discuss with you in a different thread if you're interested in starting one.
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Reply #51 - January 18, 2016, 06:14 PM

nbhb, I'm not British nor European so my information my be missing but as I see benefits are a good system.
The UK government is showing a hand of help when they are in need.
The problem is how people misused that system.
It was not only Unemployment but also illness and child care benefits.
I'm sorry to tell that but all I saw with migrants... Muslim migrants.

My message was about how Muslims ignored the hand of help the westerns showed to them and stole their money and women because the westerns are KAFFIR according to the QURAN.
This was the point of writing that story.
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Reply #52 - January 18, 2016, 06:19 PM

Quote from: Rob on January 18, 2016, 05:46 PM
No, nbhb your logic is faulty. I worked in paying Unemployment Benefits for 32 years so I know something about it. I don't want to hijack the thread but I'm happy to discuss with you in a different thread if you're interested in starting one.

I'd be happy if you can really start a new thread about UK benefits.
It will be nice to discuss what I found there at the school with an experienced person.
Actually what I witnessed there and I myself refused was the turning point to renounce Islam.
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Reply #53 - January 18, 2016, 06:42 PM

Quote from: Rob on January 18, 2016, 05:46 PM
No, nbhb your logic is faulty. I worked in paying Unemployment Benefits for 32 years so I know something about it. I don't want to hijack the thread but I'm happy to discuss with you in a different thread if you're interested in starting one.

Gladly.
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Reply #54 - January 18, 2016, 08:53 PM

Quote from: nbhb on January 18, 2016, 02:23 PM
Ahh the benefits... Practically paying people for not working in most of the cases.

Many in the West, especially in Europe and especially leftists, still don't understand the failure of this system.

You do realise that living on benefits is hardly ideal, don't you? The media loves to sensationalise the minority of situations in which the unemployed are placed in large council estates and receive £50k per year in benefits when that is very far from reality in most situations. Anyone can lose their job one day and have to rely on the welfare system, it's easy to sit back and judge others who usually don't have an alternative.
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Reply #55 - January 18, 2016, 09:53 PM

what is the agnostic/atheist version of 'there by the grace of god go I?
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Reply #56 - January 18, 2016, 09:58 PM

Quote from: ElRafa on January 17, 2016, 10:34 AM
Progressives are on the rise... however a fitnah of this age apparently

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?461300-Are-progressive-Muslims-A-fitnah-of-this-age&s=31654fdfb2b75f411ed3f8cb6e76c7bd

This thread upset me a fair bit though, you'll notice my posting if you go through it. Drowned out by the bleating voices of fascists.

don't let them upset you. there'll all be over here sooner or later. they'll tell us that they were in a trance and they've just woken up and how wretched they feel and we'll give them hugs and bunny rabbits and parrots. and i'll have a big mac and you can have a happy meal and then we'll all talk about it.
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Reply #57 - January 18, 2016, 10:01 PM

There is always an alternative. To find a new job for example. Anyways, there is a thread created for this discussion.
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Reply #58 - January 18, 2016, 10:10 PM

Quote from: Free mind on January 18, 2016, 01:59 PM

I found out not only that school but most Muslims in the west have those feelings in their hearts. I want to live in the west to collect money as much as you can but I will follow the Quran blindly even if it is not true.

So you know MOST of the muslims in the west do you?

Freemind please tell me why (since you've clearly had a bad experience in your country with muslims) you chose to work in a muslim school in uk?
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Reply #59 - January 18, 2016, 11:40 PM

Quote from: Free mind on January 18, 2016, 01:59 PM
To understand how Muslims are controlled by their Quran, pls let me tell that story. I worked at an Islamic private school at London for one year.
The headteacher was wearing Niqb (veil), she never let you see her face or shake hands with men. She was so strict with Niqab and prayer.
I asked her why so strict? She replied I obeyed Allah and followed the Islamic rules blindly.

I believe in freedom , you are free to adopt and do whatever you like.
OK it is up to you as you are comfortable. But I never felt comfortable.
One day I found out that she the headteacher with other female teachers - all wore niqab- parents faked document to steal the UK child benefits.
They used the school as a cover to get the money in their own pockets.
Even the female teachers used the 16 hours /week work rule to get money and housing from UK government. Namely, it was a corrupted place.
I wondered and asked them why you did that?
They opened the Quran and showed me many verses about the disbelievers and how we were ordered to fight them, take their women and their money because they are buying missiles and weapons to kill our Muslim brothers.
I found out not only that school but most Muslims in the west have those feelings in their hearts. I want to live in the west to collect money as much as you can but I will follow the Quran blindly even if it is not true.

Take that to the scholars and see what they say. Most I know would be abhorred by this. It's like the school was run by a cell of Taliban or Hizb ut Tahrir or something wtf.

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