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 Topic: Is islam compatible with modern human rights?

 (Read 16503 times)
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  • Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
     Reply #90 - January 19, 2016, 09:32 PM

    I got permanently banned in Ummah forum while I was a Muslim. What was the crime? I asked too many questions.

    Hmm.. Yes... asking many questions is a crime.,

    In fact, not only in Islam,  it is crime in all religions with all faith heads.. And if they are Preachers of religions you will become worst criminal.,

    Off course for  Islamic preachers  and for  Islam in public, if you are   on  their face and ask critical questions............. you are an apostate and  you lose your head........,  

     
    Quote

    fucking peice of shit preaching isssllllllam all over the globe.. peace..peace..


    and dear Speedbird.,  if you are NOT on their face and you are on internet YOU ARE A FUCKING HIDDEN JUICY JEW  

    and I think Speedbird  is  juice

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
     Reply #91 - January 19, 2016, 09:58 PM

    In Islam, asking many questions is a "sign of weak iman".  You are condemned for asking questions. The "whispers of the devil".  There is no critical thinking in Islam.  You must go into sheep mode and just follow. 

    Islam is a religion of peace..the kind of peace you find six feet under if you try to leave
  • Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
     Reply #92 - January 19, 2016, 10:20 PM


    1.What Quranic evidence do you have to support the "5 pillars" of Islam or is it just another made up concept which isn't mentioned in the book Muslims claim to follow?
    2. What value does "tawhid" have when the Islamic testimony(shahada) contains not just the almighty Allah but also a dead man called Muhammad?
    Why can't you mention Allah alone? Islam claims to be superior to Christianity and non-Abrahamic religions such as Hinduism because of the "oneness of Allah", so why can't you mention Allah alone to enter this religion which believes in the so called "oneness of Allah"?

    Islam's belittlement of religions such as Christianity and Hinduism is hypocritical, accusing them for the shirk they commit, while in the same time committing shirk themselves. Accuse Hindus of idol worship for bowing and prostrating to a statue while doing the same to a stone cube Muslims built with their own hands. Accuse Christians for the idol worship of Jesus while praising dead people such as Muhammad, his household and Abraham in their durood which is parroted at least 5 times a day in their prayer ritual. The "oneness of Allah" goes out the window in the so called prayer to Allah. Allah alone is not mentioned.

    3. What exactly is the definition of human dignity in Islam? Stoning adulterers to death, killing apostates and homosexuals, wife beating and amputating limbs for stealing are all part of Islamic law.  The claim that Islam can be interpreted differently is laughable. You cannot claim to value human dignity without turning a blind eye to Islamic law.  

    4. Islam couldn't care less about human life.  You are sentenced to death for simply leaving the religion of peace.

    5. The logic of "treat people how you want to be treated" doesn't work in Islam.  You are allowed to beat you wife if she "disobeys" you but what happens when the husband disobeys? Nothing.  Why should you be punished for disobeying your slave? It's impossible because you cannot disobey a slave.  

    Tyranny and oppression? Infidels are required to pay jizya tax in an state ruled by Islamic sharia law.  Where was the compassion when Muhammad married a 6 year old child and slept with her when she was 9?  What right did the messenger of Allah have to steal the childhood of someone?


    I got permanently banned in Ummah forum while I was a Muslim. What was the crime? I asked too many questions.


    that is it ? let me count..

    1). AGirlWithDoubts
    2).  Speedbird
     
    only two ?? Just Two birds??   finmad  I want more  ..  finmad finmad  ..  

    ElRafa   Question again

    that is it??   only two guys???   Let me repose the question of   ElRafa the way I say..Now let me see the answers.,  Actually ElRafa  should know the answers.. He is quite active in Ummah.com

    So I wonder about Mustafa-Mahmud ..  Imagine some one discovers Mustafa-Mahmud is NOT a Muslim but a CIA., KGB, MIA...etc. juice..


    Perfect Islamic State? What counts as Islamic State or not varies. ISIS thinks it's the perfect Islamic state. Each Caliph probably thought they were the perfect Islamic State.

    Honestly? If hudud punishments are the symbols of perfect Islamic State, then why don't everyone do it to get closer to perfection? Without hudud punishment (which is part of criminal justice) no Islamic State is perfect. So which comes first?

    In a hypothetical perfect Islamic State, hudud punishments are just to you? Blood money, Inheritance sexism, etc. This is the symbol of a perfect society to you?

    There is just so much wrong with this. Like so wrong, it's impossible. But hey, Islam doesn't really hurt you in any way, you're not a woman.

    Did you read happymurtad's article about the lack of rights for women? Why is sexism so acceptable but racism isn't?

    You really think this isn't problematic?


    I hope you're not expecting me to respond to all these points you've made Speedbird. I mean you clearly need to talk to some scholars or read some books on the spirituality and meanings behind the rituals in Islam. Ive read all these points before and they've all been responded to before, so you can get more refined answers and rebuttals than anything i can give you from someone of knowledge if you wish to look.

    I don't get drawn into arduous back and forths online, and i have no intention of becoming an apologist. I am however genuinely bemused as to how you guys have had such a vastly different experience of Islam to me.

    I never feel like my questions are discouraged. If my Imam doesn't know something, we go to the Sheikh, if he doesn't know something, he goes to an older sheikh, if he doesn't know something, and believe me we haven't reached this point yet, he'll pick up a book and learn it. This is what i've been assured.

    And Helaine, of course its problematic, and that's why my first point means i wouldn't support such punishments regardless. Similarly i don't think a perfect Islamic state is obtainable.

    I'm sensing the pitchforks are really starting to come out now

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
     Reply #93 - January 20, 2016, 07:52 AM

    Quote
    I hope you're not expecting me to respond to all these points you've made Speedbird. I mean you clearly need to talk to some scholars or read some books on the spirituality and meanings behind the rituals in Islam. Ive read all these points before and they've all been responded to before, so you can get more refined answers and rebuttals than anything i can give you from someone of knowledge if you wish to look.


    "Been responded before" does not mean it's the right answer. For the most part, the answer doesn't make sense. At all.

    What you're saying is, if someone can make flowery poetry praising Genghis Khan (and many, many emperors employ poets just to praise themselves) that would mean that Genghis Khan is the perfect man. As long as you get your answer (anyone can make up any answer they want) and as long as the words are pretty, then anything could happen.

    Something isn't true just because it sounds pleasing.

    Quote
    I never feel like my questions are discouraged. If my Imam doesn't know something, we go to the Sheikh, if he doesn't know something, he goes to an older sheikh, if he doesn't know something, and believe me we haven't reached this point yet, he'll pick up a book and learn it. This is what i've been assured.


    There's that hadith about asking where God came from, they threw stones at the dude who asked  Roll Eyes

    It's really incredible just how much people are being fooled by this kind of scam.

    If he doesn't know something, (and apparently you haven't reached this point yet) then he'll pick up a book and learn it. That's amazing, I didn't know there's a book that contains the answer to every single thing? Where is this book?

    Lots of philosophical questions that still remain unanswered. There is no such thing as any Sheikh that holds this knowledge to the whole world. If anything, they're the ones least qualified to answer.

    A lot of fatwa are completely illogical and full of bs. Many Islamic "Scholars" (Like Qadhi) are completely against democracy, or equality.

    Quote
    And Helaine, of course its problematic, and that's why my first point means i wouldn't support such punishments regardless. Similarly i don't think a perfect Islamic state is obtainable.


    Mo is indeed problematic.
  • Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
     Reply #94 - January 20, 2016, 10:06 AM


    Mo is indeed problematic.


    Nope... No.... I agree with most of it what you says but I agree to disagree with that statement dear Helaine..  
    ... unless...unless you prove it to me that your "mo" is same as   My  "Quran Muhammad" .. the first preacher of Islam...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
     Reply #95 - January 20, 2016, 11:36 AM

    "Been responded before" does not mean it's the right answer. For the most part, the answer doesn't make sense. At all.

    What you're saying is, if someone can make flowery poetry praising Genghis Khan (and many, many emperors employ poets just to praise themselves) that would mean that Genghis Khan is the perfect man. As long as you get your answer (anyone can make up any answer they want) and as long as the words are pretty, then anything could happen.

    Something isn't true just because it sounds pleasing.

    There's that hadith about asking where God came from, they threw stones at the dude who asked  Roll Eyes

    It's really incredible just how much people are being fooled by this kind of scam.

    If he doesn't know something, (and apparently you haven't reached this point yet) then he'll pick up a book and learn it. That's amazing, I didn't know there's a book that contains the answer to every single thing? Where is this book?

    Lots of philosophical questions that still remain unanswered. There is no such thing as any Sheikh that holds this knowledge to the whole world. If anything, they're the ones least qualified to answer.

    A lot of fatwa are completely illogical and full of bs. Many Islamic "Scholars" (Like Qadhi) are completely against democracy, or equality.

    Mo is indeed problematic.


    You didn't understand me, Idk why you've brought up Genghis a few times you seem to really like him but thats all im getting really. To clarify what I said, the criticisms of Islam you guys present have all been refuted and contested before, they are nothing original and in some cases are 1400 years old. Of course the refutations are not true to you, If they were... you would be a Muslim.  Roll Eyes

    What critics of Islam say is pleasing to you so you absorb it, I cant really see what's wrong with me agreeing with supporters of Islam in their responses. Ive listened to both sides, I've been in both camps, i've made my conclusions based on my worldview and  as have you.

    Most philosophical questions i posed were answered sufficiently by Islam, to me anyway. Of course this is subjective however, and what satisfies me may not satisfy you.

    and whats the problem With Sh. Yasir Qadhi? anyone?

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
     Reply #96 - January 20, 2016, 12:38 PM

    In all honesty, ElRafa, you don't come across to me as being very different from most of us who identify here as "ex-Muslim." You've had the opportunity to think and conclude for yourself, in an environment free from threats, intimidation, or (metaphorical) insistences that you should be eternally tortured for disagreeing. That's really what it's all about at the end of the day.

    We're talking about a man who lived in a culture over a thousand years ago whose reality we will simply never appreciate or know, no matter how much we read in books or debate online.

    We're talking about a god that, empirically at least, has been MIA for ages, since illiterate shepherds last saw him do his best tricks in a patch of dessert eons ago.

    We're talking about the world of imagination. The world of belief. The world of conjecture. The world of faith. It's a world that only exists in a retreat that you've created for it in your own mind. Whatever you choose to believe in that space should be entirely up to you.

    I wish more ex-Muslims and progressive Muslims would recognize this and recognize how much we actually share in common. To quote a wise Abyssinian king, the difference between you and us is as thin as a line.
  • Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
     Reply #97 - January 20, 2016, 03:40 PM

    Quote
    I wish more ex-Muslims and progressive Muslims would recognize this and recognize how much we actually share in common.

     


    Id argue that on a practical level progressive muslims are pretty much the same as ex-muslims.

    If you go to a progressive muslim space or an exmuslim space you see the same kind of open mindedness and tolerance thats unfortunately not very common in the mainstream muslim community.

    The fact that progressive muslims and exmuslims feel the need to break off and create their own mini muslim communities shows how bad the situation is.

    *Mini-muslim by muslim I meant as an umbrella term to refer to people from desi, arab and somalian backgrounds.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
     Reply #98 - January 20, 2016, 11:37 PM

    Sunni of the Hanafi madhab,

    My ethnic origin is mixed,
    Mostly Italian/ French/ Maghrebi/North African
    Born in the west though
    I come from a communist/socialist/atheist family
    5th generation atheist on my dads side
    3rd on my mothers.
    My dads family were originally muslims, but no one practices
    my mums family were originally christian,
    So yeah i guess im a convert
    The scholars I follow are Lebanese and Turkish btw





    Actually I hesitated to reply again because there are many replies.
    As you described yourself as a Convert. You still need more time to touch the truth by yourself.
    You will find out that in Islam, services marketing is very different from costumer service.
  • Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
     Reply #99 - January 21, 2016, 12:53 AM

    In all honesty, ElRafa, you don't come across to me as being very different from most of us who identify here as "ex-Muslim." You've had the opportunity to think and conclude for yourself, in an environment free from threats, intimidation, or (metaphorical) insistences that you should be eternally tortured for disagreeing. That's really what it's all about at the end of the day.

    We're talking about a man who lived in a culture over a thousand years ago whose reality we will simply never appreciate or know, no matter how much we read in books or debate online.

    We're talking about a god that, empirically at least, has been MIA for ages, since illiterate shepherds last saw him do his best tricks in a patch of dessert eons ago.

    We're talking about the world of imagination. The world of belief. The world of conjecture. The world of faith. It's a world that only exists in a retreat that you've created for it in your own mind. Whatever you choose to believe in that space should be entirely up to you.

    I wish more ex-Muslims and progressive Muslims would recognize this and recognize how much we actually share in common. To quote a wise Abyssinian king, the difference between you and us is as thin as a line.


    What you are saying is absolutely true. I don't like the term progressive/ regressive personally, rather i prefer, free thinking or open minded as opposed to narrow, ignorant and arrogant.
    Just because i've met some inspirational sheikhs and teachers who were open minded and tolerant but themselves conservative

    Free thinking believers and free thinking ex muslims are very similar indeed. Look at people like Irshad Manji, Maajid Nawaz. Never renounced their faith but openly and highly critical of Islam. Our community hate them more than they hate critics from the outside. Whilst their largest fan base is found amongst neo-conservative critics of Islam.  I think the way some muslim communities treat critical thinkers is abysmal, and the fact that we shun and silence the voices we disagree with, abhorrent. Of course as a believer, Its distressing to see people renounce faith, but whilst the Salafis are in their dungeons musing about how horrible your eternal punishments gonna be, I'm wishing you guys could be invited back into the community so that you may have a voice.
    I guess at the end of the day, I may disagree with what you have to say, but you should at least  have the chance to say it.
    The problem is not disagreement, rather it's the inability of some muslims to tolerate it.

    Of course its all a matter of faith, and i cling tight to mine because i'm certain it helps me to be a better person. It instills in me a social conscience, gives me a sense of purpose, community, identity and helps me to subjugate my imperfections through reminders such as Salat, with the ultimate aim of becoming a balanced, just and respectful person. The Qur'an says exactly this:
    "O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous" Al Baqqara :21
    More tolerant and respectful voices will be empowered within our ummah in the future Inshallah,

    On a personal note, I really wish you guys still classified as Muslims, you guys could really do lots in terms of showing the world we aren't all backwards, and that we are as diverse and nuanced as the western world.

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
     Reply #100 - January 21, 2016, 01:06 AM

    I think we shouldn't get too caught up in labels. That which we call a rose, and whatnot.

    Still, I think words have meanings, and for now at least, what the world knows as the meaning of the word "Muslim" simply does not describe me. There are plenty of people with more resolve than I have who are seeking to change that, though, and I applaud them for it.
  • Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
     Reply #101 - January 21, 2016, 01:10 AM

    Speaking of which, have you read any of the works of Shaikh Hassan's?

    http://agnosticmuslimkhutbahs.blogspot.com
  • Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
     Reply #102 - January 21, 2016, 02:07 AM

    There are plenty of people with more resolve than I have who are seeking to change that, though, and I applaud them for it.

     

    The biggest problem they face is that the moment you declare yourself a muslim you are letting muslims pull you into a debate involving theology and interpretation.

    Those types of discussions (mawlid debates anyone?)  are so headache inducing its just simpler to say you dont believe in any of the religious stuff and just insist they should just use reason when speaking to you about somthing.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
     Reply #103 - January 22, 2016, 09:13 AM

    Speaking of which, have you read any of the works of Shaikh Hassan's?

    http://agnosticmuslimkhutbahs.blogspot.com


    Is that Usama Hasan of quilliam?
    hes quite infamous these days.

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
     Reply #104 - January 22, 2016, 09:40 AM

    Is that Usama Hasan of quilliam?
    hes quite infamous these days.

      no..no..that is not   dr. Usama Hasan  ElRafa   that  is   Hasan Radwan..he is incharge of "REJECTIMONY" IN ISLAM. do you want to know what it is?  then  you need to watch imam Sadeeq Muhammad  Mateen

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvcXLEmBoME

    you like Imams/mullahs  and   fools of Islam right??
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
     Reply #105 - January 22, 2016, 09:52 AM

    no..no..that is not   dr. Usama Hasan  ElRafa   that  is   Hasan Radwan..he is incharge of "REJECTIMONY" IN ISLAM. do you want to know what it is?  then  you need to watch imam Sadeeq Muhammad  Mateen


    AHAHAHAHA

    what can i say the man's a showman...
    The editing was superb  Cheesy



    "im just saying"

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
     Reply #106 - January 22, 2016, 10:09 AM

    ................
    Those types of discussions (mawlid debates anyone?)  are so headache inducing its just simpler to say you dont believe in any of the religious stuff and just insist they should just use reason when speaking to you about somthing.

     well . some smart guys in islam  will quote Quran and says .. Quran also says same thing what TDR saying  and that is "use your brain and use reason" .. let me  give readers a link of Islamic intellectual who says "Quran reveals and tells you to use the your reasoning and your brain..

    http://www.detailedquran.com/quran_data/Why%20won't%20you%20think.htm


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
     Reply #107 - January 22, 2016, 10:38 AM

    Here are two verses from the book Muslims claim to follow that contradict their growing religion of 1.7+ bilion people

    " you cannot guide whomever you love, but Allah guides whomever He wants and knows best those who seek guidance." (28:56)
    "And if you obey most of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from Allah's way; they follow but conjecture and they only lie."(6:116)


    You cannot guide anyone when you yourself need guidance. Something Islamic scholars cannot seem to understand.  Growing a beard and wearing a white dress is not going to enable you guide 1.7+ billion people.

    Islam is a religion of peace..the kind of peace you find six feet under if you try to leave
  • Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
     Reply #108 - January 22, 2016, 12:26 PM

    well . some smart guys in islam  will quote Quran and says .. Quran also says same thing what TDR saying  and that is "use your brain and use reason" .. let me  give readers a link of Islamic intellectual who says "Quran reveals and tells you to use the your reasoning and your brain..

    http://www.detailedquran.com/quran_data/Why%20won't%20you%20think.htm



    Oh wow that's the Hassan bloke on here. Just realised. Afro
    Feeling somewhat embarrassed about not joining those dots.

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
     Reply #109 - January 22, 2016, 12:45 PM

    Oh wow that's the Hassan bloke on here. Just realised. Afro
    Feeling somewhat embarrassed about not joining those dots.


    don't worry ElRafa.,it is not your fault., it is the fault of that rascal yeezevee who doesn't put the dots straight to connect them..  On the other hand it could be fault of allah .. as allah says in many verses...

    Quote
    Those who reject Our Ayat are deaf and dumb in darkness. ....... Allah sends astray whom He wills and He guides on the Straight Path whom He wills........ 6:39

    ...Allah leaves to stray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills." ................. 35:8

    Say, [O Muhammad], "Indeed, Allah leaves astray whom He wills and guides to Himself whoever turns back [to Him] -.... 13:27

    If Allah so willed, He could make you all one people: But He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: ........ 16:93

    and in many many other verses..

    It is the RASCALS who don't read allah and who don't listen to allah dear ElRafa.  So again it is not your fault that you didn't figure out., Don't get embarrassed...

    well let me have some fun..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcJvkAdydnQ

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Is islam compatible with modern human rights?
     Reply #110 - January 22, 2016, 02:03 PM

     no..no..that is not   dr. Usama Hasan  ElRafa   that  is   Hasan Radwan..he is incharge of "REJECTIMONY" IN ISLAM. do you want to know what it is?  then  you need to watch imam Sadeeq Muhammad  Mateen

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvcXLEmBoME

    you like Imams/mullahs  and   fools of Islam right??
     


    Check out at 5:32

    Islam and Muslims had nothing to do with 9/11.
    Nothing..., with the exception that all perpetuators were Muslims.  Cheesy.

    How idiot can you be...

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