Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


What music are you listen...
by zeca
November 24, 2024, 06:05 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
November 22, 2024, 02:51 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 22, 2024, 06:45 AM

Gaza assault
November 21, 2024, 07:56 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
November 21, 2024, 05:07 PM

New Britain
November 20, 2024, 05:41 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
November 20, 2024, 09:02 AM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
November 19, 2024, 11:36 PM

Dutch elections
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 10:11 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 08:46 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 07, 2024, 09:56 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
November 02, 2024, 12:56 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Unemployment Benefits in European countries

 (Read 9094 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #30 - January 21, 2016, 03:10 AM

    Indonesia.

    Honestly though. My parents live in lower-income neighborhood, and the amount of people who don't work.... is so high.

    There are people loitering everywhere, and so many things are just wrong here. Public transportation is in ruin, hope that metro system would work or Jakarta is fucked.

    The government needs to give condoms for everyone >.> overpopulation is a serious issue here....
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #31 - January 21, 2016, 03:16 AM

    My apologies, in that case I had you confused with another poster. 

    But if so many people don't work in your neighbourhood, and there's no welfare state, how do they live?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #32 - January 21, 2016, 03:40 AM

    The bare minimums, very cheap food from traditional market, and if one member of the family works, than that person will... kind of share with the whole family.

    Some only work partially (like several months a year) some have "work" like having a warong (small snacks/food stall) then they will just sit... and watch tv all day. Some others have small stores here and there, but really, like really there are very few customers coming in. I don't know how they have enough. Some live on pension if their work gives pension (but old people like that are not to blame). But sometimes the whole family... including the adult children will just live on that pension money >.> As long as there's money, no need to work.

    Lately the gov have increased property tax for Jakarta and I've seen some of the poorest from my neighborhood sold their house and went back to live at the village.

    I mean the only money that poor people spend, is on food. And food can be very cheap here... no regulations... (don't think too much about it). Rent is almost free because family + adult children all live together, etc.

    Think about the lives of the average basement dwellers NEET in the west. Free rent, junk food diet. Maybe apply for work a little then stop again.
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #33 - January 21, 2016, 03:44 AM

    Cheesy Cheesy

    Oh god that really gives a good perspective about the mentality of the people from poorer countries.



    I don't agree about it is the mentality of the people from poorer countries.
    I myself from the same poor country but I didn't accept their behavior and when I was  there I criticized the headteacher and the staff and warned them to report to the police about my suspicions and their fraud.

    I asked myself continuously why people migrated to good countries such as UK and they cheat.
    If you have the change to start a new life in a good country, why don't you follow the rules?
    What extra can you gain from fraud and cheating?
    In UK, you will get free medical insurance, free education for your children, good affordable prices for food and clothing and more than that your freedom, democracy, safety and security.

    I thought at the beginning that may be uneducated migrants commit such behaviors. But people such as the headteacher and teachers are educated and were born in the UK, they are not migrants.
    After many years of experience and thinking, I came to the conclusion that it is the mentality of some Muslims whether in poor or rich countries.
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #34 - January 21, 2016, 03:53 AM

    Fraud happens, if people are aware of it they should just report it. There are ways of doing so anonymously.
    I agree that fraudulent claims are immoral but let's have perspective, you can't reasonably tear down the whole of the welfare state just because a few people abuse it.


    I assure you again the UK welfare system is great and humane.
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #35 - January 21, 2016, 11:13 AM

    If a Japanese person was contributing to this thread, they would probably make much the same points as nbhb.

    It's something we self-satisfied Western Europeans should think about. Our way may be 'humane', but is it wise?
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #36 - January 22, 2016, 03:21 AM

    TBH David... That's what my dad says about white people as well...

    He thinks that giving free money to people will just make them be lazy.

    If the UK welfare works well for UK and there's very low abusers rate then it's probably better to keep it that way. Don't remove it if it works.

    After all the solution to economic crisis needs to match the culture of the people as well.
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #37 - January 22, 2016, 09:20 AM

    TBH David... That's what my dad says about white people as well...

    He thinks that giving free money to people will just make them be lazy.

    If the UK welfare works well for UK and there's very low abusers rate then it's probably better to keep it that way. Don't remove it if it works.

    I'm not sure it works quite as well as it is supposed to. It definitely protects the vulnerable, and it definitely provides perverse incentives. The UK has decided that the first is worth the problems created by the second.
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #38 - January 22, 2016, 11:36 AM

    Do you know who else is living off the state? The Windsor family. Why? Well, apparently being born into a certain family means that you are entitled to millions from the pockets of taxpayers, yet I often see those who curse people on benefits praising them in the name of "patriotism".
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #39 - January 22, 2016, 12:23 PM

    It's rare for people to consistently assume that being in receipt of state funds should result in the proportional scrutiny of every recepient.

    Tradition, innit? Apparently here to stay, just like good old herpes.
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #40 - January 22, 2016, 03:25 PM

    And what are we arguing about exactly?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9VoLCO-d6U
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #41 - January 22, 2016, 05:27 PM

    Something about mulberry bushes, I think.

    At least, that's where any discussion of state disbursements almost always tends to lead, because the undeserving will always be with us for as long as there is an 'us' to convince one way or another.
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #42 - January 24, 2016, 05:06 AM

    Fraud happens, if people are aware of it they should just report it. There are ways of doing so anonymously.



    How can I report?
    How does the government find the truth?
    It had happened many years ago.
    Will they take action for something happened in the past?
    According to my information, the headteacher was dismissed from the school and they staff left the school with her. It was like a gang of thieves.
    Last year, I found out that they left the school together to set up a new Islamic school to continue their spiritual message and activity.
    The spiritual message is to bring up the Muslim children and cling to Islam with might and main .....  dance dance dance
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #43 - January 26, 2016, 07:40 PM

    If it wasn't for the benefit system, I would not have coped as a single mother.  I get that many would judge to the point of saying 'well you should have kept your legs closed then', but sorry I shouldn't have.

    Most of us don't pop a baby out assuming we will be alone.  Shit happens, and the benefit system is supposed to provide a safety net to help you cope when shit happens.

    Thanks to that safety net, I have been to Uni, I am going on to do a Phd, but in the mean time I am now working part time as a lecturer at the same uni I just graduated from.  (currently teaching social research methods to year 2 students lol)

    I now pay tax, and my tax is going to support someone just like me, someone who fucked up somewhere along the way and needs a helping hand. 

    Do I care if that helping hand turns into years?  Fuck no I do not.  I do not care if it takes a person years to get back on to their feet, nor do I care if the tax is used until they die because they never managed to get off their feet.

    Know why? because I know that success in life relies on a myriad of factors, that start from seriously young, and if these things in anyway go wrong, or are denied in some way, then it may well be that the damage is already too deep.

    I am even very much into this idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income  (although I can almost guarantee it will never be seen in the UK where the idea of free money has been too deeply associated with laziness).

    For me it takes security in life to find the confidence to aim for success, and poverty does not provide security.

    True there are some people who make it out of poverty, having never received a benefit, but these success stories are in the extreme minority.  It is also true that not a lot of benefit recipients in the UK, get out of the hole that it can become, but again...all of this really really does rely on factors that require a societal level change, rather than a payment after the fact.  Prevention is better than cure. 

    As to wanting to direct our taxes to better things rather than welfare payments, I disagree again.  There are other ways to deal with the unnecessary cuts inflicted on the NHS and our schooling system, that don't involve creating yet more poverty, and yet more of a strain on the NHS, or yet more deprived areas catered to by shitty schools.






    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #44 - January 27, 2016, 12:59 AM

    Good post, Miss Berbs.

    With qualifications I wholeheartedly agree.
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #45 - January 27, 2016, 01:27 PM

    What qualifications would they be?   Tongue

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #46 - January 27, 2016, 10:05 PM

    Just normal and nebulous concerns about not creating a dependency or entitlement culture.

    The most affluent I have ever been was when I was signing on and working cash in hand at the same time. It took me a long time to realise it ain't right.

    I like the idea of a Basic Income, but I've no idea whether it would be sustainable. And it could only work if immigration was tightly controlled.
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #47 - January 27, 2016, 10:46 PM

    I recently heard about basic income on the radio. apparently its cheaper than hiring people to chase up the cheats. it does seem more humane.
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #48 - January 27, 2016, 10:54 PM

    So that's why in our police annual report, petty crimes are going down. The guys went to London  grin12 And I thought the police has improved...

    There is no connection between our welfare system and what Daily Mail wrote in that article, trust me.




    do you know France's crime rate probably also went down when they deported around 18,000 romanians for thieving and begging. Smiley

  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #49 - January 28, 2016, 09:05 AM

    Dear @babooshka, first of all they were not romanians, they were gypsies from Romania and Bulgaria. I hope you understand the difference.

    Secondly, please read Helaine post about mentality of certain group of people or cultures.

    The type of benefits that you have there in UK, will not work here, with the mentality that we have here. It can work in countries like Japan, South Korea and has worked in Nordic countries(as long as they were homogeneous). You need a sort of mentality for this.
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #50 - January 28, 2016, 09:22 AM

    If it wasn't for the benefit system, I would not have coped as a single mother.  I get that many would judge to the point of saying 'well you should have kept your legs closed then', but sorry I shouldn't have.

    Most of us don't pop a baby out assuming we will be alone.  Shit happens, and the benefit system is supposed to provide a safety net to help you cope when shit happens.

    Thanks to that safety net, I have been to Uni, I am going on to do a Phd, but in the mean time I am now working part time as a lecturer at the same uni I just graduated from.  (currently teaching social research methods to year 2 students lol)

    I now pay tax, and my tax is going to support someone just like me, someone who fucked up somewhere along the way and needs a helping hand. 


    Sorry to ask this and please feel completely free not to answer, you were married and without a job when you had your babies?

    I am even very much into this idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income  (although I can almost guarantee it will never be seen in the UK where the idea of free money has been too deeply associated with laziness).

    Wonderful idea!!!! This surely will attract even more "hard-working" people in the UK.
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #51 - January 28, 2016, 10:21 AM

    If it wasn't for the benefit system, I would not have coped as a single mother.  I get that many would judge to the point of saying 'well you should have kept your legs closed then', but sorry I shouldn't have.

    Most of us don't pop a baby out assuming we will be alone.  Shit happens, and the benefit system is supposed to provide a safety net to help you cope when shit happens.


    My daughter - two children. Effectively left school at 15 because of suspension for bad behaviour got through an access course, and achieved a first class social work degree. Now earns 30k a year. The welfare state helped her do that.

    Paul McCartney says The Beatles wouldn't have existed if it wasn't for unemployment benefits.
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #52 - January 28, 2016, 05:20 PM

    Just normal and nebulous concerns about not creating a dependency or entitlement culture.

    The most affluent I have ever been was when I was signing on and working cash in hand at the same time. It took me a long time to realise it ain't right.

    I like the idea of a Basic Income, but I've no idea whether it would be sustainable. And it could only work if immigration was tightly controlled.


    What exactly is an entitlement or dependency culture, and who decides what the right sort of culture would be here?  I mean I am honestly sick of a set group of higher ups and neoliberal bullshit telling me what the right sort of society is, even though this right society is totally failing its people.

    Because you know it's those sort of fears that prevent things like basic income being taken seriously in the UK, even though it works out cheaper and more effective than the system we have, and has been shown not to create dependents.

    The difference between working cash in hand plus claiming, is the fear that the claim will be taken, leaving you no better off.  That is what most people want, to be better off.

    My best friend is disabled...I honestly feel pain watching her attempt to walk around as she has 6 different chronic conditions.  She may never be able to work.  She also has 2 kids under 8, plus a 17 year old.  She was claiming right up until she got married, and now she is no longer claiming.  The thing is, her partner makes 1300 a month.  Of which 750 goes straight to the rent, and some portion goes to the council tax.  Then you factor in utility bills, which are staggering in the UK.  (mine is 240 a month on gas and electric alone)

    Think about what her, her husband, and her 3 kids are left with to eat, buy clothes for her rapidly growing kids, pay school fees (which keep increasing, and might be called voluntary but are far from it).

    I mean she is never going to be able to work again.  The body she had prior to an accident is gone, it's never coming back.  That 1300 a month that her partner makes is based on a recent wage increase so there will be no increase anytime soon.

    This sort of in work poverty is what drives people to fiddle and cheat the system (not that she is).  She is not entitled to any in work benefits such a tax credits to supplement a very dismal wage packet.

    If she had had a basic income that didn't vanish just because she became ill, or just because she got married, they could actually afford to do more than just survive.  They could also increase their own opportunities, and those of their kids.

    Instead we have a welfare system based on ticking some boxes, and currently it is quite a penal system. 

    Every decision is laced with fear/shame.  Every attempt to better yourself is punishable with poverty. 

    There is a social myth floating out there that suggests that real hard work in super poverty stricken situations, affords you the same opportunity to succeed as those who have everything currently enjoy.  It is however a myth.  I watch people grafting and grafting, collapsing in upon themselves, with no improvement.  If you have kids that is.  Childless couples in the UK are the ones that currently can see improvements to their lives.

    Also, the idea that immigration would need tighter controls if something like basic income was introduced is terribly tinged with a racist view that immigrants only want to come here for free money.  I am not calling you a racist, just saying that this idea is racist.  People in other countries also want opportunity.  That is why many come here.  They want out of poverty, they want work and education opportunities.  They want jobs, money, food, a life etc.  Sure some assholes don't.  But even in tightly controlled immigration we will still end up with assholes.

    You can't look at people wanting to come here and see free riding barbarians at the gate.  Immigration suffers from other problems that need to be addressed, but money isn't one of them.  Free money is just the hyped up media representation of what these immigrants want.

    I mean seriously, the father of the famous baby that washed up on the beach, was crucified by some for apparently only endangering his family so that he could have free dental work.  Like what the actual fuck. 

    My dad came here to get away from his father, and to work, to make money.  Many things went wrong that eventually led to him being a full time claimant, and not working, but the things that need addressing, those societal level changes may well have kept him working as a chef, like he did when he first came here.

    I just don't fear people becoming lazy because they have money.  Even rich people want to make more money. 

    Some may call me a dreamer lol but I'm not the only one...... Wink

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #53 - January 28, 2016, 05:30 PM

    Sorry to ask this and please feel completely free not to answer, you were married and without a job when you had your babies?


    Now you see, you made a judgement about me because you read above that I was a single mother on benefit.  You know how you made that judgement?

    By asking me if I was WITHOUT a job when I had my babies.  You assumed I chose to have my kid knowing that I had no job.

    This way you can square things up in your head so that I am the idiot and should have made different choices, and in this way the current way of hating on welfare scroungers can continue.  Grin

    I did have a job when I got pregnant with my first kid.

    But I also had a violent and controlling husband who made me stop working, kept me under lock and key to ensure I went through with the pregnancy.

    Next thing I know, I am a mother with no money, a violent husband, and ISLAM.

    Or did you forget the sort of forum you are currently visiting?  you know, a forum where many of us have been in some extremely bad situations.

    There is so much more to my story than whether I had a fucking job when I chose to have a baby.  Your question reveals a lot about where you wanted to go with that discussion.

    Quote
    Wonderful idea!!!! This surely will attract even more "hard-working" people in the UK.


    I know right...all those awful money grubbing foreigners who will flood our land if we appear too good as a country.

    Let's keep it all hateful and shit, they won't want to come here then......oh wait....

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #54 - January 28, 2016, 08:44 PM

    What exactly is an entitlement or dependency culture, and who decides what the right sort of culture would be here?  I mean I am honestly sick of a set group of higher ups and neoliberal bullshit telling me what the right sort of society is, even though this right society is totally failing its people.

    Because you know it's those sort of fears that prevent things like basic income being taken seriously in the UK, even though it works out cheaper and more effective than the system we have, and has been shown not to create dependents.

    The difference between working cash in hand plus claiming, is the fear that the claim will be taken, leaving you no better off.  That is what most people want, to be better off.

    My best friend is disabled...I honestly feel pain watching her attempt to walk around as she has 6 different chronic conditions.  She may never be able to work.  She also has 2 kids under 8, plus a 17 year old.  She was claiming right up until she got married, and now she is no longer claiming.  The thing is, her partner makes 1300 a month.  Of which 750 goes straight to the rent, and some portion goes to the council tax.  Then you factor in utility bills, which are staggering in the UK.  (mine is 240 a month on gas and electric alone)

    Think about what her, her husband, and her 3 kids are left with to eat, buy clothes for her rapidly growing kids, pay school fees (which keep increasing, and might be called voluntary but are far from it).

    I mean she is never going to be able to work again.  The body she had prior to an accident is gone, it's never coming back.  That 1300 a month that her partner makes is based on a recent wage increase so there will be no increase anytime soon.

    This sort of in work poverty is what drives people to fiddle and cheat the system (not that she is).  She is not entitled to any in work benefits such a tax credits to supplement a very dismal wage packet.

    If she had had a basic income that didn't vanish just because she became ill, or just because she got married, they could actually afford to do more than just survive.  They could also increase their own opportunities, and those of their kids.

    Instead we have a welfare system based on ticking some boxes, and currently it is quite a penal system. 

    Every decision is laced with fear/shame.  Every attempt to better yourself is punishable with poverty. 

    There is a social myth floating out there that suggests that real hard work in super poverty stricken situations, affords you the same opportunity to succeed as those who have everything currently enjoy.  It is however a myth.  I watch people grafting and grafting, collapsing in upon themselves, with no improvement.  If you have kids that is.  Childless couples in the UK are the ones that currently can see improvements to their lives.

    Also, the idea that immigration would need tighter controls if something like basic income was introduced is terribly tinged with a racist view that immigrants only want to come here for free money.  I am not calling you a racist, just saying that this idea is racist.  People in other countries also want opportunity.  That is why many come here.  They want out of poverty, they want work and education opportunities.  They want jobs, money, food, a life etc.  Sure some assholes don't.  But even in tightly controlled immigration we will still end up with assholes.

    You can't look at people wanting to come here and see free riding barbarians at the gate.  Immigration suffers from other problems that need to be addressed, but money isn't one of them.  Free money is just the hyped up media representation of what these immigrants want.

    I mean seriously, the father of the famous baby that washed up on the beach, was crucified by some for apparently only endangering his family so that he could have free dental work.  Like what the actual fuck. 

    My dad came here to get away from his father, and to work, to make money.  Many things went wrong that eventually led to him being a full time claimant, and not working, but the things that need addressing, those societal level changes may well have kept him working as a chef, like he did when he first came here.

    I just don't fear people becoming lazy because they have money.  Even rich people want to make more money. 

    Some may call me a dreamer lol but I'm not the only one...... Wink


    This is an excellent post and highlights everything that is wrong with the current scapegoating of people from underprivileged backgrounds  Afro
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #55 - January 28, 2016, 08:46 PM

    Now you see, you made a judgement about me because you read above that I was a single mother on benefit.  You know how you made that judgement?

    By asking me if I was WITHOUT a job when I had my babies.  You assumed I chose to have my kid knowing that I had no job.

    This way you can square things up in your head so that I am the idiot and should have made different choices, and in this way the current way of hating on welfare scroungers can continue.  Grin

    I did have a job when I got pregnant with my first kid.

    But I also had a violent and controlling husband who made me stop working, kept me under lock and key to ensure I went through with the pregnancy.

    Next thing I know, I am a mother with no money, a violent husband, and ISLAM.

    Or did you forget the sort of forum you are currently visiting?  you know, a forum where many of us have been in some extremely bad situations.

    There is so much more to my story than whether I had a fucking job when I chose to have a baby.  Your question reveals a lot about where you wanted to go with that discussion.


    NO. No making judgments, no assuming, no squaring things up in my head about you. Just asking to check if Islam has something to do with this. And as suspected it has.

    I read your story one year ago and I remember a lot of things but not this. And I remember my wife in tears reading through. I wanted to check this info myself but I really couldn't and still can't find the link to your story. Maybe you can share the link.
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #56 - January 29, 2016, 12:23 PM

    What exactly is an entitlement or dependency culture, and who decides what the right sort of culture would be here?  I mean I am honestly sick of a set group of higher ups and neoliberal bullshit telling me what the right sort of society is, even though this right society is totally failing its people.

    Because you know it's those sort of fears that prevent things like basic income being taken seriously in the UK, even though it works out cheaper and more effective than the system we have, and has been shown not to create dependents.


    Many poorer countries do have lazier culture. In some island in Indonesia, people only work 3 hours a day. From 9am-12pm. This island is very rich in production and they don't need to work much to get "ok" living standards. Meanwhile, every time there's a big project going on, they need to import people from outside the island because the natives can't keep good work ethics (can't get things done with deadline).

    Now, basic income could probably work in UK, but it might not work for other culture. What if it attract the kind of people from lazier culture? You turn out to be a good person who don't exploit the system, but a decision for the entire country must count both sides of the coin, not just the good ones.

    If UK is failing its people, what is a definition of country that don't fail its people? Can that solution work in UK?
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #57 - January 29, 2016, 02:33 PM

    What exactly is an entitlement or dependency culture, and who decides what the right sort of culture would be here?  I mean I am honestly sick of a set group of higher ups and neoliberal bullshit telling me what the right sort of society is, even though this right society is totally failing its people.

    Hang on a sec. I was basically agreeing with you, but expressing 'normal and nebulous' concerns.

    Normal because any important social programme should be looked at rigorously from every angle, and nebulous because I've not done so.

    It's really disappointing that a key debate Britain and Western Europe must have, calmly and soberly, descends so quickly into name-calling. It's also weirdly parochial. There is a big world out there with much to teach us.
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #58 - January 29, 2016, 02:41 PM

    we are all products of our environment. in my part of London most of the hospital nurses are from Malaysia Indonesia and phillipines. they give 150% and are some of the kindest happiest hardworking people you could meet. And they are thriving here because they've been given a chance to live and work.

    Its easy to label people lazy. maybe the government need to look into why they indigenous folk aren't doing so well. Britain has been educating its people for years. that's why they did well. what are the governments of these 'lazy' societies doing? maybe its the governments that are lazy. easier to get foreign engineers than pull your own people up from the gutter and house them decently and educate them.

    also you can't change people in one generation. if your born into poverty and find poverty all around you its immensely difficult to get yourself out of that kind of mindset. if people all around you are stealing and begging  or just bumming around you would most likely do the same. cos you don't know any different way to live. when you know different you do different.



     
  • Unemployment Benefits in European countries
     Reply #59 - January 29, 2016, 04:05 PM

    Babooshka nobody it's talking about people being lazy.  Read again, it's about culture, mentality.
  • Previous page 1 23 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »