"Quote from: AhmedZaid9119 on Today at 12:35 PM
"Never said it did, strawman.
It clearly say its, again your problems with English are clearly. It is used the very hadith you reject as grounding for the exception."
yes you did, this is not a strawman, go ready your original this is what you said
"Quote
and no he didn't cite any hadith to justify his claim that only children play with dolls
Yes he did. If you looked at the links, which you didn't, the very hadith he cited is used by my references...."
in which you refereed to islamQ&A when i actually read it before and you did, you simply copied it from his video without reading it, the website simply address the exception of Aisha playing with dolls since it's forbidden to play with dolls that resemble humans
There is a rule about idolatry that children as except from based on the hadith as Aisha played with dolls. You are changing this to there is a hadith allowing children to pay with dolls itself. Thus it is a strawman since you ignore the ruling part completely and lumped everything into the hadith. My claim stands as does your fallacious response.
https://islamqa.info/en/9473http://askaquestionto.us/question-answer/fiqh/are-animal-toys-and-dolls-forbidden-in-islamhttp://www.islamhelpline.net/node/832Quote
this is false I'm simply Quoting sources that disagree with the masked arab, and correct his false translations AGAIN here is my main argument
Doesn't matter. It undermines a part of your argument since it opens the door to child abuse by allowing children to marry. Like I said in your rush to refute MA you damaged your own claims.
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scholars agreed that you can't have sex with a child before they are physically capable to handle it
Which is subjective as "handle it" contains no biology, mental nor physical parameters based on puberty.
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the masked arab claimed that a man can have sexual intercourse with a child at any age, i showed he mistranslated several sources to justify this claim, and he claimed that you can marry at any age for no reason at all, i demanded evidence for that
Yes.... I never argued that he was right did I? You keep bring up his points while ignoring mine while also projecting his views as if I support them without me even saying anything about it.
the masked arab claimed that verse 65:4 allow marriage with prepubescent girls, i asked for evidence and i proceeded to show that girls at the age of 8-12 reach puberty within that time menstruation occquire, and this verse is referring to the period before menstruation, and as i explained mensuration happen 3 years after puberty, which leaves me with the question the the masked arab "how do you know this verse is referring to the period before puberty?" [/quote]
Reached puberty does not mean completed thus intercourse during puberty rather than after it had completed. 8-12 is the range when puberty begins, not ends. Your own sources show this but now you ignore these sources. Menstruation starts after breast budding not puberty.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/reachQuote
the masked arab claims you can have sex at any age, i respond with the fact that he mistranslated his sources to justify his claim, and with sources of the same schools of thought that state the wrong opinion
he claimed you can marry at any age for no reason, i demanded evidence for it and showed scholars claiming that early age marriage can only be used if there is special benefits for her.
the masked arab used verse 65:4 to justify his claim that islam allow sex with prepubescent girls, i demanded evidence and proceed to show that menstruation happen after reaching puberty and proceeded with a question of how does he know this verse is referring to girls before puberty then?
Irrelevant as I never brought these points up at all. am attacking your arguments not defending MA's arguments.
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this is false, my sources state that any time of damage is not allowed, that include mental damage too
No it isn't. It is still an exemption even if it has restriction. If this restrictions are met then the exemption to maturity is allowed.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/exemption Quote
this is false, my sources are Direct response to the masked arab OWN appeal to authority, the masked arab cited 3 videos within his video to scholars who appear to be condoning child marriage, the masked arab played the game of authority i simply showed him that i can do the exact same, this is NOT ME EXCLUSIVELY doing authority citation, but rather me playing the same game the masked arab did, please read Issue8 carefully
An appeal to authority is when someone isn't an expert. You did nothing to show MA source is not an expert. You do not understand what the fallacy is nor did you support your claim. Your argument is nonsense.
An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:
Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.
Person A makes claim C about subject S.
Therefore, C is true.
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but later on you refuted the masked arab by saying there is major conflict between the scholars, if there is major conflict how can he claim that all schools of thought from sunnies unanimously agree that it's permissible to have sex with a child at any age?
No. I showed that experts disagree but are still experts. I was attacking your claim of a fallacy not MA's "all Sunni think X" You still haven't demonstrated the fallacy at all.
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and Issue8 IS NOT MY ARGUMENT i explicitly accused the masked arab of appeal to authority fallacy you have not read the blog carefully, this is my quote
"the masked arab calls any muslims who question him as “deluded” this is rather an irrational insult when is clearly faced with skepticism however the purpose of this is him citing 2 online videos of muslim clerics affirming that the young age marriage is allowed in islam
It is your argument as you have a counter-argument in issue #8. An argument you never supported at all. You still have no idea what the fallacy means. You never demonstrated that these people were not authorities, were not experts, etc.
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As I demonstrated above scholars are actually in disagreement regarding the age of sexual intercourse, however this is not my main issue here, the main issue is citing these video is considered an appeal to authority fallacy"
as you can see, I'm simply stating that it's fallacious to use these 3 videos by the masked arab, so i simply played the same game of my own
shall we all blame Klingschor when he replied to ramy when Ramy used Authority and Klingschor did the same just to demonstrate that there are scholars who do agree with him?
Which is a disagreement not a fallacy. You still have no idea what the fallacy means even after linking you a page telling you what it means. The rest of your point is useless based on your inability or unwillingness to understand what the fallacy means.
Klingschor and Ramy have nothing to do with this at all.
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I'm simply playing the same game of authority the masked arab is saying by citing my own sources that disagree with him, what are you talking about? are you not a careful reader?
Never said you couldn't do that. Just that your point that he used a fallacy is false. All you have demonstrated is disagreement but not your many point about a fallacy.
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AGAIN Issue8 IS NOT MY ARGUMENT, be me demonstrating that i can play authority game like the masked arab, please pay attention again, i will site my main argument, do you want to look at my blog? then look at the following
Yes it is since it has a counter-argument in it.... Did you not provide references? Do you not make an argument against MA in #8?
"Where does your source allow for tradition in pedophilia? Of wait it doesn't mention it at all. Double standards your point is fallacious"
this is false this shows you have not read my blog, so go back to the intruduction and read my citation to academic sexologist who explictly say that anyone who simply follow a tradtion and religion as justification for child marrige or even interourse is not defined as pedophile [/quote]
Wrong. You source says that traditions which seem similar to pedophilia but the people may not have the mental illness of pedophilia. That is not an exemption to pedophilia but that people are assuming mental illness based on tradition which is a false diagnosis. Read your own sources. An exemption is that people X are pedophiles but are allowed to be and commit acts due to their religion.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/exemptionhttp://dictionary.reference.com/browse/misdiagnosisQuote
this is a clear example that you have not read my blog let alone you have not paied attention to it, anyone who did can clearly see it in the start of the blog, this shows your lack of observation, therefore your claims falls apart
No I read it. You make comprehension mistakes as pointed out above."
Ok this is going to be my real final reply to you as this is going no where, you are free to have a Skype chat with me if you wish to continue this"
There is a rule about idolatry that children as except from based on the hadith as Aisha played with dolls. You are changing this to there is a hadith allowing children to pay with dolls itself. Thus it is a strawman since you ignore the ruling part completely and lumped everything into the hadith. My claim stands as does your fallacious response."
again Red herring fallacy, this has nothing to do with my initial response, again the link discuss the idea of dolls having human figures and having dolls with human figures is considered forbidden, the link address the issue of Aisha having doll,s your original post claim that this link is an evidence that in islam having dolls means you are a child
when no where does the website make such claim, this is a red herring fallacy
"Doesn't matter. It undermines a part of your argument since it opens the door to child abuse by allowing children to marry. Like I said in your rush to refute MA you damaged your own claims."
again you cited no logical explanation no evidence at all, Issue8 is not an argument and not me responding to the masked arab, in this issue8 i show that i can cited authority just as much as the masked arab can, i have given you my main argument and i will repeat it for the last time
The masked arab claimed that Islam allow sex at any age, i showed that he mistranslated the sources and showed the complete opposite by showing that if any type of damage happen then it's not allowed
the masked arab claimed that you can marry at any age for no reason, i demanded evidence for such statement and provided sources that claim child marriage is only applicable when there is special benefits
the masked arab claimed that 65:4 of the Quran allow sex with prepubescent girls, i demanded evidence for such claim and showed that girls who have not yet menstruated can still hit puberty, which lead me to ask him how does he know this verse is referring to the period before puberty
That above is my main argument
Issue8 is not my main argument, never was
"Which is subjective as "handle it" contains no biology, mental nor physical parameters based on puberty."
i specifically mentioned damage as in general, mental damage is still considered also physical damage
so let me Quote myself
"and if she can’t endure penetration either she was extremely young and at the age of breastfeeding or like it such as three years of age or four or close to it then it’s Not allowed to have any form of sexual pleasure either by penetration or similar to it because she is not physically able to, but for those who simply use sexual pleasure with no intercourse with the age of eight then it’s also not allowed for him to have sexual pleasure with her too, because it’s will lead to him having his sexual desires overtake him and he will cause her damage"
i mentioned both physical and any form of damage, mental is yet again a form of physical damage
"Reached puberty does not mean completed thus intercourse during puberty rather than after it had completed. 8-12 is the range when puberty begins, not ends. Your own sources show this but now you ignore these sources. Menstruation starts after breast budding not puberty."
red herring fallacy and has nothing to do with my argument above, Again for the love of god pay attention
the masked arab claimed that verse 65:4 refers to girls who have not yet reached puberty I.e before the age of 8 i showed that menstruation doesn't happen until someone reach puberty
in which i asked how does he know it's referring to age before 8 this has nothing to do with whither they are fully matured or not
his argument was 65:4 refers to period before puberty, i demanded evidence for that when i showed that puberty start from the age of 8
"Quote
this is false, my sources state that any time of damage is not allowed, that include mental damage too
No it isn't. It is still an exemption even if it has restriction. If this restrictions are met then the exemption to maturity is allowed. "
No i did let me Quote myself again
"However I can provide evidence that marriage with girls who have not yet reached puberty in islam or sex with them should be forbidden, by using similar Islamic ruling, this ruling state لأ ضرر و لا ضرار means (there shall be no harm done and there shall be no harm allowed) or (There is no injury nor return of injury) it’s found in Muwatta Malik Book 36, Hadith 31
The implication of this Ruling is that, anything that Causes Harm should not be allowed, that is why smoking cigarettes were considered haram in some Islamic states regarding this ruling, no why I’m I stating it? Simply because having sex with prepubescent girls cause physical and mental harm, and by using such Ruling we can easily forbid sex with children before they reach puberty"
i literally stated a ruling in Fiquh that state any form of damage should not by allowed, again please read my blog
"An appeal to authority is when someone isn't an expert. You did nothing to show MA source is not an expert. You do not understand what the fallacy is nor did you support your claim. Your argument is nonsense.
An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:
Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.
Person A makes claim C about subject S.
Therefore, C is true. "
strawman i never claimed that they are experts
an appeal to authority is when Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S. Person A makes claim C about subject S. Therefore, C is true.
A is the masked arab
Authority is his 3 scholars
Person A makes Claim C (in reference to child marriage)
therefore C (Islam allowing child marriage for no reason) is true, duo to the 3 authority he cited
therefore your out most poor defense of the masked arab is unbearable
"No. I showed that experts disagree but are still experts. I was attacking your claim of a fallacy not MA's "all Sunni think X" You still haven't demonstrated the fallacy at all. "
and I NEVER SAID they are not experts, i never denounced any of his sources therefore rending you a horrible reader
"It is your argument as you have a counter-argument in issue #8. An argument you never supported at all. You still have no idea what the fallacy means. You never demonstrated that these people were not authorities, were not experts, etc. "
No it's not my argument again my argument is as follows
"The masked arab claimed that islam allow sex at any age, i showed that he mistranslated the sources and showed the complete opposite by showing that if any type of damage happen then it's not allowed
the masked arab claimed that you can marry at any age for no reason, i demanded evidence for such statement and provided sources that claim child marriage is only applicable when there is special benefits
the masked arab claimed that 65:4 of the Quran allow sex with prepubescent girls, i demanded evidence for such claim and showed that girls who have not yet menstruated can still hit puberty, which lead me to ask him how does he know this verse is referring to the period before puberty"
"Which is a disagreement not a fallacy. You still have no idea what the fallacy means even after linking you a page telling you what it means. The rest of your point is useless based on your inability or unwillingness to understand what the fallacy means.
Klingschor and Ramy have nothing to do with this at all. "
again no logical counter argument at all, you have no idea how to read a blog let alone a fallacy, the masked arab cited these three videos as a response to anyone who were and i quote him "deluded" muslim will question his sources, therefore he cited these three videos as a response to the muslims who question him by saying "look these scholars agree on child marriage, therefore my claim is right" that is appeal to authority fallacy
as for Klingschor and Ramy yes they have everything to do with it, because ramey Used scholars as evidence for his claim klingschor replied with a number of scholars and said "if you want to play the game of authority ramey my guns are bigger than yours" this is what the masked arab did
Klingschor accused Ramey of Appeal to Authority fallacy
I'm doing the same with TMA
"Never said you couldn't do that. Just that your point that he used a fallacy is false. All you have demonstrated is disagreement but not your many point about a fallacy."
again this is false, his main use of the 3 videos that he cited which i responded to in issue 8 was because he said in case if any deluded muslim will question him then he cite 3 videos later on, this means like this "if you question my sources and my arguments here are three scholars in a video agreeing on child marriage" This is appeal to authority fallacy and you clearly don't know what a fallacy means
"Yes it is since it has a counter-argument in it.... Did you not provide references? Do you not make an argument against MA in #8? "
no i have not, I'm playing the same game the masked arab is doing, by quoting authorities like he did, these are not my main issues as i stated
""Where does your source allow for tradition in pedophilia? Of wait it doesn't mention it at all. Double standards your point is fallacious"
this is false this shows you have not read my blog, so go back to the intruduction and read my citation to academic sexologist who explictly say that anyone who simply follow a tradtion and religion as justification for child marrige or even interourse is not defined as pedophile [/quote]
Wrong. You source says that traditions which seem similar to pedophilia but the people may not have the mental illness of pedophilia. That is not an exemption to pedophilia but that people are assuming mental illness based on tradition which is a false diagnosis. Read your own sources. An exemption is that people X are pedophiles but are allowed to be and commit acts due to their religion. "
again false my sources say that if anyone would follow a tradition or a religion that allow such act, he should not be considered a pedophile, this applies to Muhammad since he was following his Arabian tradition
i will Quote it again
"If arguably they were not pedophiles but following cultural or religious tradition, why is frequent sex with a child not a mental illness under those circumstances?"
as you can see, this is directly from my source and it's stating that these people are merely following a tradition so they are not labeled pedophiles since sex was not their excuse but a tradition,, the source doesn't claim they are allowed to be, but claims they are NOT to be considered pedophiles when they are simply following a tradition
since muhammad was simply following his tradition, therefore according to sexologist he is not to be considered a pedophile
please read carefully next time
I'm done here
Topic: My responses to the masked arab