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Theme Changer

 Topic: No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?

 (Read 4440 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?
     OP - March 06, 2016, 06:39 AM

    Has anyone attempted textual criticism of the Quran?  Is there any evidence the Quran is not the perfect document Muslims think it is?
  • No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?
     Reply #1 - March 06, 2016, 09:03 AM

    There is a whole thread dedicated to this Quruanic Studies and you'll find much more. In the regions section.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?
     Reply #2 - March 06, 2016, 10:26 AM

    ^
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.0

    There's also IQSA, the International Qur'anic Studies Association
  • No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?
     Reply #3 - March 06, 2016, 10:27 AM

    Has anyone attempted textual criticism of the Quran?  Is there any evidence the Quran is not the perfect document Muslims think it is?

    Hello webness1.  Hmm. the nick sounds like Goddess ..  and you being  webness1.,  I wonder whether you are a web goddess and how many web goddesses we have around the globe??


    Well Read Quran ..make a folder go for that "textual criticism"  but what is  textual criticism webbess1 ??   and welcome to CEMB..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?
     Reply #4 - March 06, 2016, 06:43 PM

    Biblical studies is much further along than Quranic studies. The bible has been studied critically for hundreds of years, and most people who've specialized in the Quran have not been critical scholars.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?
     Reply #5 - March 06, 2016, 08:13 PM

    There have been critical scholars however the methods used are based on theology first then textual criticism second rather than the reverse as per biblical scholarship.
  • No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?
     Reply #6 - March 06, 2016, 08:47 PM

    Hello webness1.  Hmm. the nick sounds like Goddess ..  and you being  webness1.,  I wonder whether you are a web goddess and how many web goddesses we have around the globe??


    Well Read Quran ..make a folder go for that "textual criticism"  but what is  textual criticism webbess1 ??   and welcome to CEMB..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Most of that thread seems to be about theology.  Textual criticism would involve an examination of the history of the Quran as a document.  Have you seen Bart Ehrman speak?  Search for him on YouTube and you'll see what I mean.
  • No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?
     Reply #7 - March 06, 2016, 09:16 PM

    Most of that thread seems to be about theology.  Textual criticism would involve an examination of the history of the Quran as a document.  Have you seen Bart Ehrman speak?  Search for him on YouTube and you'll see what I mean.

    well I have seen his debates against Bookish Christianity  but I am  not sure he wrote/worked on Islam/Quran   similar to what what he did with Christianity.. But he is a great guy and well known Scholar  of Christianity..

    Did he write anything on Islam/Muhammad??  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?
     Reply #8 - March 06, 2016, 09:52 PM

    I remember readings on the internets that someone asked him if he would want to critically analyse the Qur'an he gave a light-hearted but timid response saying something in the vain 'no fucking way dude!'

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?
     Reply #9 - March 06, 2016, 10:13 PM

    well I have seen his debates against Bookish Christianity  but I am  not sure he wrote/worked on Islam/Quran   similar to what what he did with Christianity.. But he is a great guy and well known Scholar  of Christianity..

    Did he write anything on Islam/Muhammad??  


    What I'm asking is, has there been anyone who attempted that?  The only name I've heard is Ibn Warraq. 
  • No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?
     Reply #10 - March 07, 2016, 02:29 AM

    The Bart Ehrman of the Qur'an was Paul Casanova (1911), I think.

    https://www.academia.edu/20363722/Mohammed_and_the_End_of_the_World

    [disclosure: translation is mine. and rushed, a bit. and i am not a native francophone.]
  • No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?
     Reply #11 - March 07, 2016, 04:44 AM

    Thank you for the link, I'll have a look at it.
  • No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?
     Reply #12 - March 07, 2016, 06:47 AM

    Bart Ehrman on the Quran:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59txpioPYJI

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?
     Reply #13 - March 08, 2016, 12:56 PM


    well Bart Ehrman  is a lucky guy.. Born and brought up in Christian family ..went to Bible college  became an Evangelical Christian  turns in to  liberal Christian and now apparently he is   agnostic atheist  ...  Well that path is NOT easy in Islam and impossible in the so-called present Islamic countries   but let us go back to that Webbess 1 post
    Has anyone attempted textual criticism of the Quran?  Is there any evidence the Quran is not the perfect document Muslims think it is?

    let us go back to that question....  Ideally we should get such people who were Muslims themselves.. and we should add their names and on the way write about about them .. So.. let me start that with Ibn al-Rawandi 827 CE–911 CE???  911 CE?  I doubt that..

    Quote
    Ibn al-Rawandi:    Abu al-Hasan Ahmad ibn Yahya ibn Ishaq al-Rawandi (Persian: ابو الحسن احمد بن یحیی بن اسحاق راوندی‎, Arabic: أبو الحسن أحمد بن يحيى بن إسحاق الراوندي‎), commonly known as Ibn al-Rawandi (Persian: ابن راوندی‎; born 827 CE–died 911 CE), was an early skeptic of Islam and a critic of religion in general. In his early days he was a Mutazilite scholar, but after rejecting the Mutazilite doctrine he adhered to Shia Islam for a brief period and later became a freethinker who repudiated Islam and reviled religion. Though none of his works survived, his opinions had been preserved through his critics, and the surviving books that answered him. The book with the most preserved fragments (through an Ismaili book refuting Al-Rawandi's ideology), is the Kitab al-Zumurrud (The Book of the Emerald).

    Abu al-Husayn Ahmad bin Yahya ben Isaac al-Rawandi was born in Rawand in Kashan, today located in Central Iran or some say in Marv-rud in Greater Khorasan, today located in northwest Afghanistan, about the year 815 CE. According to the Egyptian scholar Abdur Rahman Badawi, Al-Rawandi was born in Basra at the time of the Abbassid Caliph Al-Mamoun. His father, Yahya, was a Jewish scholar and convert to Islam, who schooled Muslims in how to refute the Talmud. Al-Rawandi abandoned Islam for atheism and used his knowledge of Islam, learned from his father, to refute the Quran.

    He joined the Mu'tazili of Baghdad, and gained prominence among them. He then became a follower of Muhammad al Warraq in which he wrote several books that criticized revealed religion.

    It is generally agreed among Muslims that Ibn al-Rawandi was indeed a heretic, but there is no agreement as to the nature of his heresy. Some look for the roots of his heresy in his connections with Shi'ism, and depict him as a Mu'tazilite gone wild. Some regard him as an Aristotelian philosopher, while others see him as a radical atheist, and some stress the political challenge he presented to the Islamic polity.

    He rejected the authority of any scriptural or revealed religion. This is borne out by citations from his other writings, besides the Kitab al-Zumurrud and The Futility of (Divine) Wisdom (Abath al-hikma)


    'The calamities of life are numerous and continuous. Its joy, on the other hand, comes to you as do holidays.'  Ibn al-Rawandi

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?
     Reply #14 - March 08, 2016, 06:21 PM



    That one sentence speaks volumes to those in the know. But no doubt some idiots will force him to take the remark back as it 'unjustly' insinuates that Muslims/Islam can not accept critical study of the Koran's origins.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?
     Reply #15 - March 09, 2016, 01:32 AM

    Yup. But so far he's stayed off the pc radar and I don't think he's been forced to apologize.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?
     Reply #16 - March 10, 2016, 08:35 PM

    What I'm asking is, has there been anyone who attempted that?  The only name I've heard is Ibn Warraq.  

    So webbess1 asked that question..

     I don't know what to say and I don't know who that guy was/is??  ..( well I am lying) ......    I know one guy  and his name was  "Abu 'Isa Muhammad ibn Harun al-Warraq " ..Let me put somethng about him here

    Quote
    Abu 'Isa al-Warraq, or in its full name Abū ʿĪsā Muḥammad ibn Hārūn al-Warrāq , was a 9th-century Arab skeptic scholar and critic of Islam and religion in general. He was a mentor and friend of scholar Ibn al-Rawandi in whose work The Book of the Emerald he appears.

    Al-Warraq was skeptical of the existence of God because   "He who orders his slave to do things that he knows him to be incapable of doing, then punishes him, is a fool".

    Al-Warraq challenged the notion of revealed religion.
    Quote
    He argued that if humans are capable of figuring out that, for instance, it is good to be forgiving, then a prophet is unnecessary, and that we should not heed the claims of self-appointed prophets, if what is claimed is found to be contrary to good sense and reason. Al-Warraq admired the intellect not for its capacity to submit to a god, but rather for its inquisitiveness towards the wonders of science. He explained that people developed the science of astronomy by gazing at the sky, and that no prophet was necessary to show them how to gaze; he also said that no prophets were needed to show them how to make flutes, either, or how to play them


    Al-Warraq also doubted claims portraying Muhammad as a prophet:
    That Muhammad could predict certain events does not prove that he was a prophet: he may have been able to guess successfully, but this does not mean that he had real knowledge of the future. And certainly the fact that he was able to recount events from the past does not prove that he was a prophet, because he could have read about those events in the Bible and, if he was illiterate, he could still have had the Bible read to him.


    Ha! let me read this again..  

      "He who orders his slave to do things that he knows him to be incapable of doing, then punishes him, is a fool"......  Abū ʿĪsā Muḥammad ibn Hārūn al-Warrāq

    what a statement., Imagine.. if so-called   Muslim folks  followed that man since that 9th century.,   What could I  and you  be seeing in this 21st century  between that Sand land called "Saudi Arabia" and that land in ocean called "Indonesia"?? .

    that is 12 hundred years....   damn so much time is gone webess1.,  I wonder what this planet will  look  like in the year 2016+1200= 3216??  with faith heads and without faith heads..

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?
     Reply #17 - March 10, 2016, 08:55 PM

    Since my last post I have watched the documentary, Islam: the Untold Story, in which Tom Holland theorizes that Mohammed was invented by the Arab conquerors of Jerusalem.  He and the other scholars interviewed in that documentary seem to think the Quran was written in and actually takes place in the Levant.  Interesting theory.

    And when I said Ibn Warraq I wasn't talking about a 9th Century scholar, but this fellow:
    Quote
    Ibn Warraq is the pen name of an anonymous author critical of Islam. He is the founder of the Institute for the Secularisation of Islamic Society (ISIS) and used to be a senior research fellow at the Center for Inquiry,[1][2][3] focusing on Quranic criticism.[4][5] Warraq is the Vice-President of the World Encounter Institute.[6]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Warraq

    That scholar from the 9th Century seems pretty interesting though!  His arguments sound a lot like those I've heard from Christopher Hitchens.
  • No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?
     Reply #18 - March 10, 2016, 10:03 PM

    Quote
    He and the other scholars interviewed in that documentary seem to think the Quran was written in and actually takes place in the Levant.  Interesting theory.

    You might want to look at this summary of the arguments from the Researching Islam blog:

    Identifying the Quranic Milieu
  • No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?
     Reply #19 - March 11, 2016, 01:39 AM

    You might want to look at this summary of the arguments from the Researching Islam blog:

    Identifying the Quranic Milieu

    zeca puts out an interesting link on Identifying the Quranic Milieu ("Where Was the Koran Written?").. I must go through that carefully but just curious who wrote that??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • No Bart Ehrman of the Quran?
     Reply #20 - March 11, 2016, 01:46 AM

    Since my last post I have watched the documentary, Islam: the Untold Story, in which Tom Holland theorizes that Mohammed was invented by the Arab conquerors of Jerusalem.  He and the other scholars interviewed in that documentary seem to think the Quran was written in and actually takes place in the Levant.  Interesting theory.

    So the zest of the post is

    1). Tom Holland theorizes Mohammed was invented by the Arab conquerors of Jerusalem.
    2).  the Quran was written in and actually takes place in the Levant.  Interesting theory


    well I question both the points because we still don't know who actually wrote Quran and more importantly how many authors are there in writing that 114 chapter chit-chat booklet?

    Quote
    And when I said Ibn Warraq I wasn't talking about a 9th Century scholar, but this fellow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Warraq

    Oh oh that guy.,  He is NO Ibn.,   He is born in Punjab present Pakistan so I don't trust his Islam.

    Quote
    That scholar from the 9th Century seems pretty interesting though!  His arguments sound a lot like those I've heard from Christopher Hitchens.

    see that even in 9th century   there were open critics of Quran., I guess these Ibn of that time were Jewish folks or had Jewish connections.. 

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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