Just a Muslim

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- Winterfell
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Reply #30 - April 11, 2016, 01:38 PM

Quote from: A Muslim on April 07, 2016, 10:46 PM
However, I do have one question which has been in my thoughts for the last couple of days and never has been before, weirdly enough. It's about Hell. I always understood that it is only just for Allah (SWT) to create a reward, (Jannah/Paradise) and a punishment, (Jahannam/Hellfire) for us. After all, life for us Muslims is percieved as being a test by Allah (SWT) which we must strive to succeed in to compliment our spiritual needs, (through the 5 daily prayers etc). What I don't understand is why punishment in Hell will be for an eternal period for finite sins.

Walaikum Assalam, A Muslim

I am really glad that you got yourself to doubt at least some parts of your religion. Sadly, many people don't do that and resort to Zakir Naik YouTube videos for an answer, completely ignoring the possibility that maybe, just maybe there might be something wrong with the religion that they follow.

I heard a sermon once heard the local imam say in a Jummah prayer sermon which stuck on my head, which was Quran (28:56), sura al-qasas -

"Indeed, [O Muhammad], you do not guide whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided." ( I vaguely remember now, but I think this was the verse).

Right now, less than one-fifth of the human race practise Islam. So, ask yourself this,why has Allah intelligently designed 6 billion people that are currently alive, only to misguide them and doing so, to condemn them to eternal hell fire after their death. Many of these people never would have even heard of Islam, or gotten exposed to it to accept the teachings of it, take for example the aboriginal people of Australia. Why were all the well known prophets of Allah only sent to the Middle East? Couldn't Allah send a few messengers to East Asia, Australia or the Americas?

This would be the equivalent of, a high school math teacher writing the hardest exam imaginable to intentionally fail everyone in a class of 20, but he secretly gives the actual question sheet and worked solutions to only 4 of his favourite students the day before the exam so that they can get very good grades, under one condition- they have to promised to worship him and bow down to him for as long as they live. Would you call him the most merciful?

Would that be fair treatment? This is essentially what Allah is doing right now.

Aloha Ackbar
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Reply #31 - April 11, 2016, 03:27 PM

A Muslim,

Suppose we were to hop aboard your train of thought for a moment. You state that the Qur’an’s usage of the term balaa’ (to test, to try, to put to tribulation, etc.) does not necessarily imply that Allah should be unaware of the outcome of such a test. Such an implication would, of course, nullify the notion that Ar-Rahman is also Al-‘Aleem – The All Knowing – so I’d understand why you’d want to avoid such a contradictory assertion.

So, we’re left with the proposal that in this instance, the tester (Allah) is actually aware of the results of his test, even before he carries it out. This creates the problem of futility and waste. How useless is a test that provides no new information. Can it even be considered a test?

You get around this conundrum in two interesting (if confusing) ways.

First, you state the test is not for the purpose of Allah learning something new (even though there are indeed several verses in the Qur’an which would seem to support this idea. Surah 29 Verse 3 comes to mind, as do other verses similar: “for We indeed tested those who went before them, so Allah will most certainly ascertain those who spoke the truth and those who lied”).

That contradiction aside, you rather say that the purpose of this “test” is to establish evidence against Men, so that when we finally meet our fate of eternal roasting, we can have no one to blame but ourselves.

This raises so many questions around ideas of divine justice, divine mercy, predestination, and human freewill. Most of these questions have already been raised in this thread. If they do not jump out to you as obvious issues of contention, I’m not sure what more I can say here that will jumpstart your thought process. I’ll provide this gem from your holy book: “If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance: but the Word from Me will come true, "I will fill Hell with Jinns and men all together." Surah 32:13

From this, it is clear that your Lord was intent upon burning billions of human souls alive for eternity regardless of the outcome of his “trail.” In this case, our lives become simply a pretense for Ar-Rahman to carry out his original preordained plan of torturing humans. “And for that He did create them. And the Word of thy Lord hath been fulfilled: Verily I shall fill hell with the jinn and mankind together.” In this case, you are asking me to believe that divine mercy = inevitable eternal torture. There was never any intention to avoid it.

Your second claim is a bit more stimulating in my opinion. You state that as the Qur’an is in human language, it is only meant to give us, in our limited ability to understand, an idea of what Ar-Rahman actually intends. وَأُتُوا بِهِ مُتَشَابِهًا “For they are given things in similitude.”

Therefore, “test” is the closest word available to give us an idea of what might actually be happening here. I actually quite like this idea, but I wonder why you hesitate to take it even further. Why not understand other Qur’anic concepts in this manner: Jannah, Nar, Qadr, Wahy, even Allah himself? Why can none of these also be considered as concepts communicated using human language and symbolism, representing ideas beyond the literal meanings the words may seem to imply? Shall the entire book now be open to such interpretation? Or is that too slippery a slope for you?
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Reply #32 - April 11, 2016, 04:05 PM

Winterfell

Conservative muslims like yourself can just make your lives alot easier if you learn a lesson from the anglicans and re constructionist jews.

Just limit Islam to a cultural tradition that you go to for jummahs and eid and throw some islamic songs, sufi poetry and art into the mix.

You maintain some sort of " cultural muslim" identity without having to do all these ridiculous mental gymnastics. The weakness of apologetics only makes more people leave islam since they base their entire muslim identity on those flimsy arguments.

You'll probably even lower the rate of apostasy. Islam will still die out eventually as other ancient religions but this will slow the bleeding

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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Reply #33 - April 11, 2016, 04:41 PM

..

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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Reply #34 - April 12, 2016, 01:27 AM

Quote from: TheDarkRebel on April 11, 2016, 04:05 PM
Winterfell

Conservative muslims like yourself.

Ummm... OK, that's news to me.

Just because I wished someone who is a Muslim salam, more of a gesture of appreciation... I guess as the O.P. actually questioning his faith, but maybe I shouldn't have done that?

And the fact that I had attended Eid and Jummah prayers when I used to be a Muslim doesn't really make me a conservative Muslim now, does it?

As I have mentioned numerous times earlier, I absolutely hate Islam because of how hateful, discriminative and stupid it is. But I don't hate Muslims, most of them are good people, many of my friends are still Muslims (although most don't know of my apostasy).

But other than that point, well said.

Especially the apologetics part. Zakir Naik is seen as one of the greatest modern day heroes of Islam (in my home country at least), but half of the stuff he says is complete BS. Most Muslims have been blinded by Islam. Every time there is an Islamist terrorist attack, they claim it to be an US/ Israeli conspiracy "to damage Islam's reputation" Look how popular the 9-11, 7-7 and Boston bombing conspiracies are amongst Muslims. Either that or the common argument "They weren't real Muslims, real Muslims don't kill innocent people". If only Muslims could consider the third possibility, that maybe it is their religion that is messed up.

If more conservative Muslims (majority of the Muslims are conservative/ ultra-orthodox) can learn from the Anglicans and re-constructionist Jews, No one would have to live in fear of Islam. And Islam will eventually die out, slowly and all this bloodshed we see wouldn't even be there. I really want that to happen.

But sadly, I highly doubt Islam can be reformed. Quran is seen by Muslims as the eternal, literal word of allah. And it asks Muslims to beat wives, kill the kafirs, amongst a whole bunch of other horrible things. Islam would keep spreading like cancer, apostate's lives would get even harder each day in Islamic countries. Islam will stay this backwards and regressive.

Aloha Ackbar
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Reply #35 - April 12, 2016, 03:09 AM

Quote
I absolutely hate Islam because of how hateful, discriminative and stupid it is. But I don't hate Muslims, most of them are good people, many of my friends are still Muslims (although most don't know of my apostasy).
Quote

Every time there is an Islamist terrorist attack, they claim it to be an US/ Israeli conspiracy "to damage Islam's reputation" Look how popular the 9-11, 7-7 and Boston bombing conspiracies are amongst Muslims. Either that or the common argument "They weren't real Muslims, real Muslims don't kill innocent people". If only Muslims could consider the third possibility, that maybe it is their religion that is messed up

You are WINNING

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Reply #36 - April 12, 2016, 09:59 AM

Awesome thread. I hope you guys don't mind me sharing it in the Agnostic Muslims Facebook group. It's a closed group so don't worry.

Btw A Muslim - wa alaykum assalam
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