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Theme Changer

 Topic: Who is better?

 (Read 6067 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Who is better?
     OP - April 24, 2016, 10:04 AM

    I am still at London. Last week I called a British friend to see him. He apologized as he was flying to Athens to help refugees.
    He is working with refugee support agency in Turkey to help the Syrians.

    Last week also I got a call from a Syrian person that I know during my study time in London.
    He got asylum at London 4years ago and he brought his family also.
    He asked my help to translate English for him at the Brent council in Wembley as he had an accident two days ago. I went there and waited in a long queue while he was sitting on the chair as he had an accident.
    We finished and left the council, after some walking he said now it is safe and he suddenly started to remove bands from his arm and folded his metal stick.
    All that was a trick to deceive the council to get more money. The amazing was that he pushed me to hurry to catch Jumaa prayer as it is not good to miss the prayer.

  • Who is better?
     Reply #1 - April 24, 2016, 11:38 AM

    Who is better at what?

    "The greatest general is not the one who can take the most cities or spill the most blood. The greatest general is the one who can take Heaven and Earth without waging the battle." ~ Sun Tzu

  • Who is better?
     Reply #2 - April 24, 2016, 01:16 PM

    Eh, kinda see this kind of hypocrisy a lot. "Lying" is only bad if it happens to you/your family/community. If you're doing it against other people, that's totally fine. Tribalism is just bad.
  • Who is better?
     Reply #3 - April 24, 2016, 08:26 PM

    Who is better at what?


    To respect and appreciate.
  • Who is better?
     Reply #4 - April 25, 2016, 05:40 AM

    I am still at London. Last week I called a British friend to see him. He apologized as he was flying to Athens to help refugees.
    He is working with refugee support agency in Turkey to help the Syrians.

    Last week also I got a call from a Syrian person that I know during my study time in London.
    He got asylum at London 4years ago and he brought his family also.
    He asked my help to translate English for him at the Brent council in Wembley as he had an accident two days ago. I went there and waited in a long queue while he was sitting on the chair as he had an accident.
    We finished and left the council, after some walking he said now it is safe and he suddenly started to remove bands from his arm and folded his metal stick.
    All that was a trick to deceive the council to get more money. The amazing was that he pushed me to hurry to catch Jumaa prayer as it is not good to miss the prayer.




    The one helping refugees rather than abusing the system to maintain status. Fraud is fraud
  • Who is better?
     Reply #5 - April 25, 2016, 07:32 AM

    (The one helping refugees rather than abusing the system to maintain status. Fraud is fraud)

     thnkyu thnkyu thnkyu

    You got my point.

    Muslims are living in their own world of hallucination and fraud. They still have their own mentality of believers and non believers. Their mentality allows them to do fraud, cheating and hypocrisy.
    However, they are persecuting us for non belief and free thinking and criticism.

    As quoted by a writer : Free liberal thinkers and critics in the Muslim world are similar to the musicians at TITANIC movie. They played music until the end  while people didn't pay attention to them. Everyone tried to make his own way out.
  • Who is better?
     Reply #6 - April 25, 2016, 08:09 AM

    I'm not sure what's that got to do with being Muslim. Rich people are taught to play the system to get richer and stay richer, but when poor people do it, it's "abusing the system" and "fraud".

    Sure, it's unethical, but the system is set up to encourage people to be fraudulent. It's a huge double standard. And when you think that a poor person is much more likely to need to squeeze every penny they can get just to survive, it goes to show who the system is set up for.

    The guy had to seek asylum from Syria and set up an entirely new life in the UK. He's probably desperate for the money. Instead of judging him, maybe help him with more ethical ways he can make money.

  • Who is better?
     Reply #7 - April 25, 2016, 12:41 PM

    I second the notion that fraud isn't a wholly owned subsidiary of Islam.

    I have come across people, from my country of origin, living in Paris who ideologically fare-dodge as their way to take revenge on France colonising Chad and continuously supporting (through financial, military and intelligence means) the despotic regime of Idriss Deby.

    I have come across other African people in London who sublet social housing out of pure greed; and, who give tips of advice to others coming from war torn zones on how to pass things like Atos medical assessments in relation to mental health problems; how to get put on Section 2 of the Mental Health Act 1983 and how to get parked thereafter on sickness and disability benefits.

    I have come across people from the Subcontinent, working cash-in-hand, who told me that they do it for the patriotic reason of avenging what the British have done to India in the past.

    In Glasgow, I was told "cash-only" at least four times when shopping and my host told me this was probably because most Scots do not believe in paying taxes to the Westminster Government and would avoid paying on principle when they can. I said, let's see what they would do when tax collection of this sort gets devolved to Holyrood.

    Finally, and perhaps to do a little bit of whataboutery whose purpose is not to ethically justify the particularity of the instance in the OP, I find it interesting to refer to an article written a few years ago by George Monbiot on state subsidies aka benefits to rich farmers (No, I'm saying dear Hassan is rich): 

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/01/farm-subsidies-blatant-transfer-of-cash-to-rich
  • So who is better ?
     Reply #8 - April 25, 2016, 02:39 PM

    well for some reason free mind  or fried mind or  fried brain.. put a OP in introduction folder   with a heading Who is better? and it sounds like fun post.. Fun posts should be in fun  places such as lounge. So he writes in that OP., who is better  Person_1  or person_ 2??

    Quote
    I am still at London. Last week I called a British friend to see him.

    Quote
    Person_1  : He apologized as he was flying to Athens to help refugees. He is working with refugee support agency in Turkey to help the Syrians.


    Quote
    Person_2: Last week also I got a call from a Syrian person that I know during my study time in London.
    He got asylum at London 4years ago and he brought his family also. He asked my help to translate English for him at the Brent council in Wembley as he had an accident two days ago. I went there and waited in a long queue while he was sitting on the chair as he had an accident. We finished and left the council, after some walking he said now it is safe and he suddenly started to remove bands from his arm and folded his metal stick.

    All that was a trick to deceive the council to get more money. The amazing was that he pushed me to hurry to catch Jumaa prayer as it is not good to miss the prayer

    .


    So free Mind ., I think both are good people ., better than you and me., what do you say?

    Now let me give you the video ..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvq07KBfhnQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt0YNiwKiR4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kExGmpGTdI0


    Those tube are from AMRIKA  ., apparently that lady is a DOCTOR born in USA  to some Indian parents..

     Now question to you guys is ..

    Who is better that Uber Driver? Or that lady doctor .. or the Phone which captured that video? or Amrika news channels??

    Who is better? .. who is better .?.  finmad  

     I demand answers from you fuckers .. the readers..  finmad

    Moderators... if you don't like this .. delete the damn post.. delete the folder.... finmad

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • So who is better ?
     Reply #9 - April 25, 2016, 05:21 PM

    I'm feeling old!

    That is a very young doctor. Or rather; a spoiled brat.
    She has hopefully learned a valuable lesson (and also the lesson, that she could not just pay her way out of it).
    That she has received death threats for it is depressing, and just goes to show, that the internet really has given the asshats of the world a way to communicate.



    With regards to the OP: A person who is granted asylum and then uses fraud to steal more than he is entitled to, is probably something of the lowest piece of ....

    What he does, is exactly the argument against letting refugees in.
    He exemplifies all the arguments in favor of a restrictive immigration/asylum policy: The thieving, lying, moslem arab, whose main concern is to work as little as possible while milking the system.

     finmad
  • Who is better?
     Reply #10 - April 25, 2016, 06:38 PM

    Free mind your 'point' appears to be flawed. Think harder.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Who is better?
     Reply #11 - April 25, 2016, 09:41 PM


    (The guy had to seek asylum from Syria and set up an entirely new life in the UK. He's probably desperate for the money. Instead of judging him, maybe help him with more ethical ways he can make money.)

    He was generously granted the chance to set up a new safe life in the UK.
    His family joined him and settled with him in the UK.
    His children got FREE education in the UK and all of the family  got FREE medical insurance.
    He got a place to live with his family and the council is paying the rent.
    He got disable FREE transport card while he is well.
    He works but secretly to get more money.
    Believe me he never participated in the revolution or his country.
    He as many Muslims share the same ideology of deception and hypocrisy.



  • Who is better?
     Reply #12 - April 25, 2016, 10:03 PM


    I'm not sure what's that got to do with being Muslim.



    Being a Muslim must help you to differentiate between what is good and whatis bad. Your prayer must shower you with blessing and mercy and be guided to the right path. Reciting the Quran must touch your heart and inner self and change your soul from the darkness to lightness.
    Kaffir or disbeliever is always on the wrong track and he must go to the  hell.
    Muslims are in the highest paradise eating the delicious foods that never be eaten and married the most beautiful women in the paradise.

    All above is what was implanted in our minds and selves since we are children.
    All Muslims share the same feeling and ideology.
    It is not acceptable to say or believe in something else.
    But when I started to open my eyes and see their manners, I found out how naive I was.
    I don't judge people, I just shed lights on their hypocritic manners.
    I wrote he pushed me to hurry to catch the Friday prayer after our meeting at the council. I didn't care and I said why you are in a hurry and what happens if we miss it !!!  imagine that you were still at the council waiting for the money, would you leave your money and benefits and hurry for the prayer!
    Believe me he didn't say a word and I decided to stop contacting him again.



  • Who is better?
     Reply #13 - April 25, 2016, 10:10 PM

    Free mind your 'point' appears to be flawed. Think harder.


    Why?

    The person who understands my point is the Muslim only.
    The Muslim who used to listen, follow and obey without thinking.
    The Muslim who found himself living in a world of deception and hypocrisy with a group of crooks and clowns.
    The person who was a NAIVE as I was.
  • Who is better?
     Reply #14 - April 25, 2016, 10:30 PM

    Being a Muslim must help you to differentiate between what is good and whatis bad. Your prayer must shower you with blessing and mercy and be guided to the right path. Reciting the Quran must touch your heart and inner self and change your soul from the darkness to lightness.
    Kaffir or disbeliever is always on the wrong track and he must go to the  hell.
    Muslims are in the highest paradise eating the delicious foods that never be eaten and married the most beautiful women in the paradise.

    All above is what was implanted in our minds and selves since we are children.
    All Muslims share the same feeling and ideology.
    It is not acceptable to say or believe in something else.
    But when I started to open my eyes and see their manners, I found out how naive I was.
    I don't judge people, I just shed lights on their hypocritic manners.
    I wrote he pushed me to hurry to catch the Friday prayer after our meeting at the council. I didn't care and I said why you are in a hurry and what happens if we miss it !!!  imagine that you were still at the council waiting for the money, would you leave your money and benefits and hurry for the prayer!
    Believe me he didn't say a word and I decided to stop contacting him again.



    Free Mind, you are in a factual error when you say that Muslims are in the highest paradise (الفردوس الأعلى) which is a gross generalisation unsupported by Islamic texts. I challenge you to prove me wrong on this point. Also saying that being a Muslim “must” necessitate this or that, where do you get these imperatives from?

    Free Mind, you remind me of another understandably angry and prone to fictional generalisations member on CEMB, called Worood. She has my fullest sympathy but not my agreement with the way she went about caricaturing Muslims on the forum.
     
    Free Mind, since you appear to know all of this individual's personal circs and have reached a solid conclusion in his particular case (which you’re also all too willing to generalise on), the question I put to you is, why don’t you do your ethical and civic duty as a law-abiding person and report him to the authorities?
     
    If his case is exercising your free mind, then I can offer a practical way to ease your conscience; the number you would need to call is 0800 854 440. Alternatively, you can report benefit fraud cases anonymously online. Utilise Google.

    Otherwise, what you are suggesting or trying to generalise could hardly be anything but an ill-informed criticism of Islam that in reality is an extreme prejudice against Muslims. Please reflect and distinguish the deference between Islam and Muslims. I’m completely against the former but fairness compels me to treat the latter on a case-by-case basis.

    If the reverse were true in all cases, then tell me, what do you and I as Ex Muslims have in common on the ethical side on which anyone else could lump and group us together?
  • Who is better?
     Reply #15 - April 25, 2016, 11:41 PM

    imagine that you were still at the council waiting for the money, would you leave your money and benefits and hurry for the prayer!


    That was beautifully put!
     Narcissist
  • Who is better?
     Reply #16 - April 25, 2016, 11:58 PM

    (The one helping refugees rather than abusing the system to maintain status. Fraud is fraud)

     thnkyu thnkyu thnkyu

    You got my point.

    Muslims are living in their own world of hallucination and fraud. They still have their own mentality of believers and non believers. Their mentality allows them to do fraud, cheating and hypocrisy.
    However, they are persecuting us for non belief and free thinking and criticism.

    As quoted by a writer : Free liberal thinkers and critics in the Muslim world are similar to the musicians at TITANIC movie. They played music until the end  while people didn't pay attention to them. Everyone tried to make his own way out.


    That is far too much of a generalization. Many Muslims have become citizens of their host nation without abusing the system. Many Muslims are born into their parent's host country as defacto citizens but do not abuse the system. They are just like you or I but with a different view on religions. Islam is not the only religion which draws a line between believer and unbeliever. Go read some of the Evangelical rhetoric being used in order to sway the voters in America against those that do not follow Evangelical views.
  • Who is better?
     Reply #17 - April 26, 2016, 03:11 AM

    Free Mind, you are in a factual error when you say that Muslims are in the highest paradise (الفردوس الأعلى) which is a gross generalisation unsupported by Islamic texts. I challenge you to prove me wrong on this point. Also saying that being a Muslim “must” necessitate this or that, where do you get these imperatives from?

    Free Mind, you remind me of another understandably angry and prone to fictional generalisations member on CEMB, called Worood. She has my fullest sympathy but not my agreement with the way she went about caricaturing Muslims on the forum.
     
    Free Mind, since you appear to know all of this individual's personal circs and have reached a solid conclusion in his particular case (which you’re also all too willing to generalise on), the question I put to you is, why don’t you do your ethical and civic duty as a law-abiding person and report him to the authorities?
     
    If his case is exercising your free mind, then I can offer a practical way to ease your conscience; the number you would need to call is 0800 854 440. Alternatively, you can report benefit fraud cases anonymously online. Utilise Google.

    Otherwise, what you are suggesting or trying to generalise could hardly be anything but an ill-informed criticism of Islam that in reality is an extreme prejudice against Muslims. Please reflect and distinguish the deference between Islam and Muslims. I’m completely against the former but fairness compels me to treat the latter on a case-by-case basis.

    If the reverse were true in all cases, then tell me, what do you and I as Ex Muslims have in common on the ethical side on which anyone else could lump and group us together?


    In defence of Free mind, I think what he means to say is that Islam makes/helps Muslims to do bad things, because cheating or being a hypocrite with kaffirs is kind of okay. Something like Islam shapes your mentality in a bad way,  not that Muslims are any different than other people.

    Now, these days people are very touchy and for the sake of political correctness you have to be very, very careful at your language, not to generalise or say anything that can be interpreted as such. PR robots. Wouldn't be better to be allowed some degree of generalisation, sometimes to forget using the usuals 'many' or 'most of?
  • Who is better?
     Reply #18 - April 26, 2016, 05:04 AM

    I'm not sure what's that got to do with being Muslim. Rich people are taught to play the system to get richer and stay richer, but when poor people do it, it's "abusing the system" and "fraud".

    Sure, it's unethical, but the system is set up to encourage people to be fraudulent. It's a huge double standard. And when you think that a poor person is much more likely to need to squeeze every penny they can get just to survive, it goes to show who the system is set up for.

    The guy had to seek asylum from Syria and set up an entirely new life in the UK. He's probably desperate for the money. Instead of judging him, maybe help him with more ethical ways he can make money.


    Hahahah. Whatever the loving fuck.

    The system makes people do fraudulent shit? Then why bother saving immigrants in the first place? Just be a fraudulent shit, doesn't matter okay? The system that gives free education, free healthcare, and so much free other shit? It's a huge double standard? When do people not demand the rich to fold when they are caught doing shady stuff? Since when is there a double standard about abusing the system? A fraud is a fraud. Period.

    Tribalism at its finest. A muslim stealing money from the government? He's probably desperate for money. No judging okay? He's probably squeezing every penny he has just to survive!

    Why bother being a good person? Why save immigrants? You just gave a good reason why there is no reason to be a good person. Just kill, steal, do whatever you want. Nobody should judge you because there are richer people doing worse things, and apparently because they're not caught yet then people should go for the bigger fish first! Why bother doing honest work? Just make 10000 excuses about why it's OKAY to swindle money!

    What about people who suffer from poverty and manage to earn good living doing honest work? Why bother?

    Quote
    In defence of Free mind, I think what he means to say is that Islam makes/helps Muslims to do bad things, because cheating or being a hypocrite with kaffirs is kind of okay. Something like Islam shapes your mentality in a bad way,  not that Muslims are any different than other people.


    Tribalism. Kind of crazy that people here do not see this. It's the way many religions/group think. It doesn't matter if you're not a good person, as long as the people you hurt are not your own.

    This kind of tribalism is the reason why racism/classism are so rampant everywhere. Stop making excuses and report him.
  • Who is better?
     Reply #19 - April 26, 2016, 06:26 AM

    Thanks for all who support my point of view.
    To the others who are not happy with my words or generalisation, please check this link

    https://islamqa.info/en/147996

    4.

    But if what you meant by hypocrites is those who fall into some acts of hypocrisy, such as lying or betraying a trust or breaking a promise; or he fell into some kind of minor shirk, such as showing off or swearing by something other than Allah; or who fell into some major or minor sin – such a person does not become a kaafir just by doing that thing. It does not put him beyond the pale of Islam and he will not spend eternity in Hell because of it, if he dies believing in Tawheed. Rather his case is up to Allah: if He wills He will punish him for his sin, then admit him to Paradise because of his belief in Tawheed, or He will bestow His grace upon him from the outset and admit him into Paradise and forgive him for the sins that he committed. Al-Bukhaari (6933) and Muslim (1659) narrated that Abu Dharr said: The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Jibreel appeared to me at the side of the harrah and said: ‘Give your ummah the glad tidings that whoever dies not associating anything with Allah will enter Paradise.’ I said: ‘O Jibreel, even if he steals and even if commits zina?’ He said: ‘Yes.’ I said: ‘Even if he steals and even if commits zina?’ He said: ‘Yes.’ I said: ‘Even if he steals and even if he commits zina?’ He said: ‘Yes, and even if he drinks alcohol.’”
  • Who is better?
     Reply #20 - April 26, 2016, 06:35 AM

    "the question I put to you is, why don’t you do your ethical and civic duty as a law-abiding person and report him to the authorities?"

    "Stop making excuses and report him."

    Actually I couldn't do that before because I was threatened to keep silent otherwise me and my family would be in danger in my home country.
    Now I'm applying for asylum in the UK as an Ex-Muslim. I informed the legal advisor about my own experience now and in the past with such persons.
    She asked to send her all documents and invoices as a proof and I did.
    You can say I'm still worried to be identified otherwise my life and my family's will be in danger. This is what I can say now.
  • Who is better?
     Reply #21 - April 26, 2016, 11:09 AM

    In defence of Free mind, I think what he means to say is that Islam makes/helps Muslims to do bad things, because cheating or being a hypocrite with kaffirs is kind of okay. Something like Islam shapes your mentality in a bad way,  not that Muslims are any different than other people.

    I agree with what you say he meant here. More than that, I say it myself all of the time about Islam in its texts. But there’s a gap, is there not, between the texts and the people who believe in them — this gap resists the listed imperatives being true or necessary in each Muslim person’s case.


    Now, these days people are very touchy and for the sake of political correctness you have to be very, very careful at your language, not to generalise or say anything that can be interpreted as such. PR robots. Wouldn't be better to be allowed some degree of generalisation, sometimes to forget using the usuals 'many' or 'most of?

     I don’t think political correctness and generalisation are the same thing (if that what you meant to say).

    Generalising, as I understand it, is making a broad statement based on limited facts. Thus, there’s nothing wrong with generalisation in itself (social scientists rightfully do it all the time). The bone of contention pertains to the ‘limited facts’ aspect of it.

    When the facts are extremely limited, like in the case above, so as to be based on one case to which we are cordially invited to choose who the better person is, generalisation is defective and untenable.

    You cannot get out of faulty generalisation such is the case here by using “most” and “many of”. And it is the limited nature of facts — which sometimes are intuitions— that makes stereotyping an opinion worthy of contempt and dismissal.
  • Who is better?
     Reply #22 - April 26, 2016, 11:27 AM

    "the question I put to you is, why don’t you do your ethical and civic duty as a law-abiding person and report him to the authorities?"

    "Stop making excuses and report him."

    Actually I couldn't do that before because I was threatened to keep silent otherwise me and my family would be in danger in my home country.
    Now I'm applying for asylum in the UK as an Ex-Muslim. I informed the legal advisor about my own experience now and in the past with such persons.
    She asked to send her all documents and invoices as a proof and I did.
    You can say I'm still worried to be identified otherwise my life and my family's will be in danger. This is what I can say now.

    I understand. In this case, please do not report him and place yourself and family in danger. At the same time, try not to beat yourself up over it for your putative participation in his fraud. Interpreters such as yourself do not get prosecuted in the UK and even if you were, yours is a prima facie case of not knowing when you translated for the fraudulent and having known after the event, you failed to report him and others for being and or perceiving yourself and family to be in danger if you do so. Thus, you seem to be or are under duress and aren't without fear of reprisals. If you're in the process of claiming asylum then you can't work as a translator (or work in general, unless 6 months have passed without your claim getting determined) but if you in his and other cases have volunteered to help, by way of translating and interpreting for them, then your involvement is informal and your name will not appear anywhere as far as Brent Council is concerned.
  • Who is better?
     Reply #23 - April 26, 2016, 12:59 PM

    I agree with what you say he meant here. More than that, I say it myself all of the time about Islam in its texts. But there’s a gap, is there not, between the texts and the people who believe in them — this gap resists the listed imperatives being true or necessary in each Muslim person’s case.

     I don’t think political correctness and generalisation are the same thing (if that what you meant to say).

    Generalising, as I understand it, is making a broad statement based on limited facts. Thus, there’s nothing wrong with generalisation in itself (social scientists rightfully do it all the time). The bone of contention pertains to the ‘limited facts’ aspect of it.

    When the facts are extremely limited, like in the case above, so as to be based on one case to which we are cordially invited to choose who the better person is, generalisation is defective and untenable.

    You cannot get out of faulty generalisation such is the case here by using “most” and “many of”. And it is the limited nature of facts — which sometimes are intuitions— that makes stereotyping an opinion worthy of contempt and dismissal.


    Maybe I have wrongly formulated (putting political correctness instead of not taking offense), but here what I want/was trying to say:
    Free mind made a statement that Muslims have some sort of mentality. It would have clearly been more accurately to say 'many' or 'most' Muslims have some sort of mentality. Seems to me, that people(even here, open minded as they are) are very touchy, very sensitive with reference to generalizations(about Muslims or other types of communities), when I think we have to give a little bit more space to people willing to give offence in such cases. I'm sure that in many cases, people are reading statements as being offensive to some sort of communities, when in fact this was not the intent of the poster.
  • Who is better?
     Reply #24 - April 26, 2016, 10:24 PM

    Maybe I have wrongly formulated (putting political correctness instead of not taking offense), but here what I want/was trying to say:
    Free mind made a statement that Muslims have some sort of mentality. It would have clearly been more accurately to say 'many' or 'most' Muslims have some sort of mentality. Seems to me, that people(even here, open minded as they are) are very touchy, very sensitive with reference to generalizations(about Muslims or other types of communities), when I think we have to give a little bit more space to people willing to give offence in such cases. I'm sure that in many cases, people are reading statements as being offensive to some sort of communities, when in fact this was not the intent of the poster.

    This should be better. If you’ve got a resting bitch face then nobody should blame you for giving a lot of saccharine smiles. No, not that. If the contention really were about phraseology, Free Mind could easily have jumped the hurdle by starting off the OP with a warning that what follows are his opinions based on his subjective experience. Indeed, isn’t that what you and I do to neutralise any perceived charges of ill will and prejudice when we are being polemical on Muslim related phenomena?  Isn’t this the customary disclaimer of online forums?

    It’s the generalisability of the said mentality in practice (“All Muslims share the same feeling and ideology. It is not acceptable to say or believe in something else”) which I doubt and deprecate. I view what Free Mind says as a misapplication of what I suspect to exist in theoretical Islam, its promoting as well as justifying texts. The material facts of the case at hand, of the Syrian refugee whom Free Mind accuses of fraudulence and then strides to generalise to include “Muslims”, are really limited in practice.

    Such a view is beyond objective falsification which is why I took Free Mind to task over another fine point of not all Muslims ending up in the *highest* level of paradise. I sought nuance and offered a practical solution to the particularity of this case (a case which is so individual in nature that it would’ve been a personal attack if the individual concerned were a member of the forum). Free Mind showed interactional illiteracy when he came back to thank those who agreed with his point of view; this would normally be my cue to shuffle off any discussion. There are other cracks in Free Mind’s reasoning (such as him seeming to think that those Syrians who participated in “the revolution” are somehow more worthy to be granted Refugee Status in Britain) which he would have stood to benefit by their closer scrutiny, as this is the purpose of any discussion, but Free Mind appears to have come here to list his convictions and whoever disagrees with them risks becoming a pious Muslim.

    However, I hear what you say about unwittingly and unintentionally giving offence, which is a welcome diversion from the cul-de-sac into which Free Mind was, probably for ongoing personal reasons, driving this discussion.

    If so, then I have recently adopted the laziness of reading the Daily Mail Online every day (including the DON’T MISS bar where everyone’s derriere is pert, and their tums taut or had better be in the process of becoming so soon). This paper has a habit of publishing stories that involve the criminalities, shenanigans as well as peccadillos of Muslims.

    Day after day I see something negative about Muslim people on its website. These stories aren’t all or mostly untrue or even mostly inaccurate. If you dig deeper into any particular story (especially after the Leveson Inquiry and its unprecedented recommendation to constitute a press regulatory body of sort in the UK) you are likely to find them to be loosely true. This tabloid is the second biggest-selling in the UK, and it regularly editorialises news and claims its unabashed coverage of such Muslim stories is to fight the scourge of political correctness, offending Muslims or giving offence in general.

    It’s the habitual negative coverage, day in day out, which falsely enlarges and over-represents the particular criminalities of Muslim people. Nobody’s denying that Muslims kill, steal, lie, rape, cheat and defraud the taxpayer. But not all of them at the same time or in this particular order which is the impression DM’s coverage liberally gives on a daily basis.

    Muslim Benefit Cheat Caught, reads a headline. Council BANS Christmas Decorations Not to Offend Muslims, would read another. Muslim Family in SEVEN Bedroom House On Taxpayers, reads a third. Plans to Build MEGA-MOSQUE in Newham. Underage Girls Passed Around As Piece of MEAT by Asian Muslim Gang Paedophile Ring.

    These mock headlines have no doubt more than a kernel of truth behind them. They're not, in other words, a tissue of syndicated lies. But this faultfinding focus on a particular segment of people in society, with a repeated reference to their being Muslim, will inevitably result in demonising and otherising them as well as putting them on the defensive when it comes to their ownership of the country. (The readership has in its non-PC fold a multitude of useful idiots — and a thoroughly misinformed man who mistakenly assaulted a paediatrician because he thought it had something to do with paedophilia — and other emotional types not all too easily given to introspection and critical analysis, as so they appear to me if their comments underneath such articles is anything to go by, that puts these negative stories into a perspective, away from the usual moral panics.)

    There's truth to black people like me being over-represented in the justice system in the UK but a big reason for this over-representation is a police tactic called "Stop and Search" which, as you probably know, is applied six times more in your case if you are black or Asian in comparison to your white counterpart. The Macpherson report has convincingly silenced the battery of those who doubt that the UK police is institutionally racist. Further, judges tend to give you custodial sentences if you are black and so, the wheel goes round. All that does not, not for a minute, take away the fact of black people committing crimes or that, just like Romanian travellers and others, they do not have a habit of street socialising, say, in weed-infested Brixton; a habit which others might find threatening or interpret as suspicious loitering outside their homes which makes them report it to the police. But blame magnifying their criminal follies to the point of causing moral panic wholly on them? And do that lock, stock and barrel?

    Also, it is no accident that ethnic minorities are statistically over represented in mental health institutions (and even foster care) because of situational difficulties which the current, holistic, socio-psychobiological understanding of the causes of mental unhealth retraces back to. (Not to exclude or underestimate the causative link being claimed to exist between cannabis and psychotic breakdowns, as for as people like Peter Hitchens are concerned, which is the putative health-based argument for not legalising ganja in the UK.)

    Race campaigners such as Lee Jasper have been making these points, including the negativism of racial reportage in the media which perpetuates myths about black criminality, since 1980s; I would've given a small fortune to see the look on his face when Jason Rilley published his book Please Stop Helping Us: How Liberals Make It Harder For Blacks To Succeed). Situtional social difficulties are a significant factor in the case of asylum seekers being over represented in the mental health system.

    Would I have gone far if I argue that my and possibly other Ex Muslims' post Islam depression and mental health problems have social situtional causes away from our life style choices? I doubt that.

    I know little about social psychology but I have read Propaganda by Edward Bernays. That is to say, it is the repetition of half truths and individualistic Muslim cases that couldn't be representative of the generality of their population that is at fault and causing social damage to real people out there, whose terrible sin is to have been born into a Muslim family that brought them up Muslim.

    It is for this sin of being that others generalise against these Muslims with unctuous relish; pillory and attack them on purpose in their dearly held personal centre (their humanity) in the name of truth telling; and regularly imply character as well as behavioural kinship between them and their most notorious co-religionists.

    I think highly enough of the people on this forum to hope and trust they can walk the tightrope between rightfully caricaturing Islam and wrongfully demonising Muslims. Equally, I do get the restrictive psychological pressure of trying not to offend through one's style of discourse, probably because when I write, I try to write like an angel while thinking like the Devil.

    ----------------------------
    Fully updated.
  • Who is better?
     Reply #25 - April 27, 2016, 10:42 AM

    As always, it is a pleasure to read your posts and I thank you for the replay.

    Quote from: Wahhabist
    The material facts of the case at hand, of the Syrian refugee whom Free Mind accuses of fraudulence and then strides to generalise to include “Muslims”, are really limited in practice.

    There are other cracks in Free Mind’s reasoning (such as him seeming to think that those Syrians who participated in “the revolution” are somehow more worthy to be granted Refugee Status in Britain) which he would have stood to benefit by their closer scrutiny


    Free mind is clearly wrong with generalizing regarding these two, no doubt about it. Where I think a generalization may hold, (not because it is valid for all Muslims, for many will be other way around), is the idea that Islam is shaping your mentality in a bad way.
  • Who is better?
     Reply #26 - April 27, 2016, 10:47 AM

    .............. Equally, I do get the restrictive psychological pressure of trying not to offend through one's style of discourse, probably because when I write, I try to write like an angel while thinking like the Devil.........
     

     
    Hmm    "Thinking like devil and writing like an angel"  Wahhabist  sounds like all in one.,   angel in devil and devil in angel ..

    ....allah in Satan and satan in allah ..  So my suggestion to Wahhabist  is "stop using equal in your tea/coffee  ., Use real Sugar and learn how to control sugar  in the body and sugar in the mind"  

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Who is better?
     Reply #27 - April 27, 2016, 10:51 AM

    ......Free mind is clearly wrong .............  


    well if some one is wrong then some one should be able to correct him/her and make him/her to think right /.   CEMB has plenty of smart people for that job nbhb..,  Free mind is simply airing his frustration against Islam but he choose some Muslim guy to express  his frustration..  that is all what it is ., And that is not the right way.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Who is better?
     Reply #28 - April 27, 2016, 01:58 PM

    Actually I couldn't do that before because I was threatened to keep silent otherwise me and my family would be in danger in my home country.
    Now I'm applying for asylum in the UK as an Ex-Muslim. I informed the legal advisor about my own experience now and in the past with such persons.
    She asked to send her all documents and invoices as a proof and I did.
    You can say I'm still worried to be identified otherwise my life and my family's will be in danger. This is what I can say now.


    Actually it wasn't directed at you... It was just a reply against someone else.

    Thank you for doing what you can do. I understand why it's very hard for you to do so, group mentality doesn't take kindly to "traitors". Please be safe, your safety is always first priority.

    Sigh. I understand why you posted it. It's a personal rant based on your experience, but it came across as generalizing all muslims as if "all muslims are bad". A lot of things about Islam trigger emotional response from a lot of people here, myself included. I just... have heard about all kind of excuses so many times. Coming from Indonesia, excuses may range from "I am poorer than you, therefore it's okay to swindle you out of your money. You have too much anyway". "I suffer more, therefore it doesn't matter if I do anything wrong, the one who suffer less should pay for all the damages, not the ones who made the mistake.". There are so many "justifications" to do shitty things. I guess people who never experienced it will always blame someone else who they perceive to be the source of problem.

    Best wishes... and be safe.
  • Who is better?
     Reply #29 - April 27, 2016, 02:22 PM

    If so, then I have recently adopted the laziness of reading the Daily Mail Online every day (including the DON’T MISS bar where everyone’s derriere is pert, and their tums taut or had better be in the process of becoming so soon). This paper has a habit of publishing stories that involve the criminalities, shenanigans as well as peccadillos of Muslims.

    Day after day I see something negative about Muslim people on its website. These stories aren’t all or mostly untrue or even mostly inaccurate. If you dig deeper into any particular story (especially after the Leveson Inquiry and its unprecedented recommendation to constitute a press regulatory body of sort in the UK) you are likely to find them to be loosely true. This tabloid is the second biggest-selling in the UK, and it regularly editorialises news and claims its unabashed coverage of such Muslim stories is to fight the scourge of political correctness, offending Muslims or giving offence in general.

    It’s the habitual negative coverage, day in day out, which falsely enlarges and over-represents the particular criminalities of Muslim people. Nobody’s denying that Muslims kill, steal, lie, rape, cheat and defraud the taxpayer. But not all of them at the same time or in this particular order which is the impression DM’s coverage liberally gives on a daily basis.

    Muslim Benefit Cheat Caught, reads a headline. Council BANS Christmas Decorations Not to Offend Muslims, would read another. Muslim Family in SEVEN Bedroom House On Taxpayers, reads a third. Plans to Build MEGA-MOSQUE in Newham. Underage Girls Passed Around As Piece of MEAT by Asian Muslim Gang Paedophile Ring.

    These mock headlines have no doubt more than a kernel of truth behind them. They're not, in other words, a tissue of syndicated lies. But this faultfinding focus on a particular segment of people in society, with a repeated reference to their being Muslim, will inevitably result in demonising and otherising them as well as putting them on the defensive when it comes to their ownership of the country. (The readership has in its non-PC fold a multitude of useful idiots — and a thoroughly misinformed man who mistakenly assaulted a paediatrician because he thought it had something to do with paedophilia — and other emotional types not all too easily given to introspection and critical analysis, as so they appear to me if their comments underneath such articles is anything to go by, that puts these negative stories into a perspective, away from the usual moral panics.)


    We know that Islam is the reason that Muslims are seen in such a bad  Therefore, the correct thing will be for DM & others to write how bad Islam is, instead of demonising the Muslim community.

    Islamic theology is a finite source and to criticize Islam could and usually does end up with security problems. So as a newspaper, even if you like to do this, why would you do it? You don't sell and you end up with security issues. People see that it is something wrong with Islam/Muslims and they want to be fed with something. Governments, politicians, societies are doing close to nothing to counter this and even if they do something, it doesn't work, because the source of the problem(Islam) is not addressed at all. It's an absolute normal reaction at the inaction of those mentioned ahead. So a newspaper just serve people with what they want.

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