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 Topic: Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news

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  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #120 - June 16, 2016, 02:26 AM

    It actually matters a lot, because the way mental illness is talked about when discussing terrorism stigmatizes people who are already stigmatized and marginalized.

    And then you talk about being "normal" as opposed to mentally ill, which makes me question how much you know about mental illness. It's pretty normal to be mentally ill. In the US, 1 in 5 people have a mental illness. The figure is the same in Canada.

    Link

    Link
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #121 - June 16, 2016, 02:30 AM

    I already know those figures. You need to stop assuming that I don't know much about psychology. It is one of my personal interests and I have done many hours of personal study on the subject. I am not in any way stigmatizing the mentally ill. Saying that violent people are mentally ill is not the same as saying that mentally ill people are more likely to be violent. The fact is, even you must admit that many violent people are in fact mentally ill. That does not stigmatize anyone, it is just a fact. And so saying that all violent people must be ill in some way is also not a stigmatization.

    I don't think you quite get it, so please tell me what exactly you think I am doing to stigmatize mentally ill people?
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #122 - June 16, 2016, 02:58 AM

    I'm not assuming anything. I'm making a statement and supporting it with evidence. If you already know the points I'm making, that's great. Sorry if providing links comes off as condescending.

    I don't think you're intentionally trying to stigmatize mentally ill people, but the language you use is pretty stigmatizing. Saying something like "normal" in contrast to "mentally ill" is problematic, because it others mentally ill people.

    You're making two different statements:

    "Many violent people are in fact mentally ill."

    "All violent people must be ill."

    The first is undoubtedly true, because mentally ill people have the capacity to be violent. I recognize this. But it doesn't lead to your second statement. There's a break in logic in your argument.
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #123 - June 16, 2016, 06:55 AM

    His ex wife said he was bipolar.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #124 - June 16, 2016, 07:09 AM

    She seems to be using the term colloquially, as a way to say that he gets mad out of nowhere. She didn't say he was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. A lot of people use mental illness terms very loosely, which is very problematic in and of itself precisely because of situations like this.

    Quote
    "In the beginning he was a normal being that cared about family, loved to joke, loved to have fun,” Mrs Yusufiy said, adding that she had met Mateen online.

    "A few months after we were married I saw his instability, I saw his bipolar, and he would get mad out of nowhere, and that’s when I started worrying about my safety.

    Link

    She never mentions anything about him seeking any kind of mental healthcare. There's no mention of any psychologist or psychiatrist.
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #125 - June 16, 2016, 07:35 AM

    Think Omar Mateen must have been mentally ill to shoot 49 people dead? Sorry, that's too simple

    A sick act demands a sick mind, surely? That seems reasonable until you follow your own logic down a rabbit-hole of unintended prejudice

    Was Omar Mateen, the Orlando shooter who killed 49 people in a gay club this weekend, mentally ill? He certainly seems to have harboured some seriously disturbing thoughts, but as far as diagnoses from official sources go, nothing has been forthcoming.

    Instead, we’ve been treated to a deluge of online armchair psychiatrists declaring that he was “mentally unstable”, “probably mentally unwell” or “showing signs of mental ill health”. If you think people Googling their cold symptoms and becoming convinced they’re dying of cancer is bad, you should see the open-source diagnostic love-in that goes on every time somebody commits a truly atrocious crime.

    Our rush to call a killer mentally ill seems to come from a sort of wonky well-meaning: people assume that in order to commit a massacre or a particularly sadistic murder, the perpetrator would have to be in a state of mind so utterly different to any normal person that they may as well qualify as unwell. A sick act, surely, demands a sick mind.

    That seems reasonable, until you follow your own logic down a rabbit-hole of unintended prejudice.

    None of us wants to think that we’re a potential murderer, a baby shaker, or a rapist; I get that. But invoking “mental health” as the sole and isolated reason for a 49-body massacre does us no favours as a society. It’s a convenient way to dismiss a very inconvenient truth: that any one of us has the potential, given the right set of circumstances, to do something terrible.

    When you go about openly wondering whether Mateen might have had a touch of bipolar or some schizophrenic tendencies, or could have been in the midst of a major depressive episode, you also perpetuate some very dangerous ideas about people with mental illness.

    We each want to separate ourselves from the dark and depraved rabble with the ability to commit violent crimes. Antenatal classes that discuss the risk of shaking tiny babies, for example, have anecdotally low attendance rates: everybody thinks to themselves, it would never be me.

    Claiming someone was mentally ill when they committed a terrible crime is an extension of this type of thinking. The self-appointed shrinks who’ll tell you a murderer was mentally unstable are people who have never suffered from mental illness themselves. Their offhand comments about are little more than a classic exercise in ‘othering’. By claiming that Mateen must have suffered from an illness that, happily, most people aren’t afflicted with, they hold his crimes at arm’s length; they reassure themselves that people like them aren’t the type who’d do anything like that. Hence the friends and family wheeled out every time this happens who say, about their perfectly normal-seeming son, “But I didn’t think someone like him would do that.”

    You can’t protect yourself from violent crime by avoiding people with mental illness – not even the ones with that hysteria-inducing disorder paranoid schizophrenia. But you can protect mentally ill people from the burden of unnecessary prejudice by being smarter about how you label murderers.

    Those who carry out atrocities may have harboured ideas you find objectionable or disturbing, but the fact that you take issue with the contents of their mental lives doesn’t mean they were suffering from mental illness.

    Perhaps Omar Mateen was radicalised over the internet by Islamist fundamentalists based in Syria. Perhaps he was a self-hating gay man raised in a homophobic household. Perhaps he was an aggressive social outcast and wife-beater who lived in a country where it’s easier to buy a gun than good quality cheese. Perhaps he really did have a diagnosable mental illness that affected his perception of reality.

    Perhaps all of the above is true. But even if it is, that doesn’t mean he or the society that drove him to this atrocity is off the hook. The problems that lead to the death of 49 gay people in an Orlando nightclub at the hands of a regular clubber are far bigger than one person’s mind.

    The Independent
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #126 - June 16, 2016, 07:46 AM

    She seems to be using the term colloquially, as a way to say that he gets mad out of nowhere. She didn't say he was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. A lot of people use mental illness terms very loosely, which is very problematic in and of itself precisely because of situations like this.
    Link

    She never mentions anything about him seeking any kind of mental healthcare. There's no mention of any psychologist or psychiatrist.


    You could be right, but the fact that he didn't seek help doesn't mean he didn't have  a mental illness.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #127 - June 16, 2016, 07:47 AM

    Of course it doesn't. But it does mean we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that he did, especially because anger is not a diagnosing symptom of bipolar disorder.
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #128 - June 16, 2016, 08:07 AM

    No we shouldn't jump to conclusions.  Other associates of his have reported steroid use, which is associated with anger.  That would sound more likely to me although I don't know if that's true either.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #129 - June 16, 2016, 12:04 PM

    Orlando shooter claimed police academy rejection was over religion  says news

    Quote
    FORT PIERCE: Omar Mateen graduated from community college with a criminal justice degree, worked as a security guard and wanted to be a police officer. But a police academy rejected his application, prompting Mateen to complain that he was denied because of his Muslim faith.

    Mateen, a 29-year-old bodybuilder and devout Muslim, opened fire at a gay nightclub in Orlando early Sunday, leaving 49 people dead ................

    St. Lucie County Sheriff Ken Mascara said Mateen was removed from an assignment at the county's courthouse in 2013 after he made inflammatory comments about women, Jews and a shooting at Fort Hood.  .....The FBI investigated Mateen over the comments and again in 2014 because of his ties to a Syrian suicide bomber from Florida but both cases were closed without the agency taking action....

    Quote
    ............In 2015, Mateen wanted to attend a police academy at Indian River State College to become a police officer, but his application was denied.

    “This is a selective admission program, and he was not selected for admission,” college spokesman Robert Lane said. “He was offered the opportunity to appeal this admission decision, but opted not to appear for an appeal hearing.“.....

    Lane did not give a specific reason Mateen was denied. On Oct 19, 2015, Mateen complained to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement that he wasn't accepted because he was Muslim, agency spokeswoman Gretl Plessinger said.

    .......


    well that is published in to day's Dawn..  Most of these mass killing  brutal rogues have this common  mindset  of some one is persecuting/persecuted them   for one thing or other ..  

    You foolish American Muslim Idiots who think like this nut case.,  please realize   ONE OF YOUR PRESIDENT IS  BORN TO MUSLIM FATHER.. and he does respect your faith.. and that brutal  scoundrel is talking about fucking silly police job and discrimination  in US of A for that..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #130 - June 16, 2016, 02:08 PM

    I'm not assuming anything. I'm making a statement and supporting it with evidence. If you already know the points I'm making, that's great. Sorry if providing links comes off as condescending.

    I don't think you're intentionally trying to stigmatize mentally ill people, but the language you use is pretty stigmatizing. Saying something like "normal" in contrast to "mentally ill" is problematic, because it others mentally ill people.

    You're making two different statements:

    "Many violent people are in fact mentally ill."

    "All violent people must be ill."

    The first is undoubtedly true, because mentally ill people have the capacity to be violent. I recognize this. But it doesn't lead to your second statement. There's a break in logic in your argument.




    Those two statements I made because you reminded me of people who are violent as a result of beliefs or viewing others as no longer being human. I still think that they still probably have some kind of disorder, but it's possible that those factors alone do cause the violence. Sorry for the confusion.

    I understand what you mean now about the wording, but the thing is, I do not consider those words to be insulting in any way. I do not think saying a person is mentally ill should be a negative thing at all. In my view, they are defining statements. I guess that it's true that others may not see it that way.

    In any case, I fail to see how whether or not the shooter was mentally ill is significant in the grand scheme of things.
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #131 - June 16, 2016, 02:33 PM

    Given an "appropriate cause" perfectly sane people are capable of extreme violence.

    Some did it to the right people at the right time, and became heroes.
    And a lot of them were farmers, teachers or workers before the war, and went back to their old jobs after the war.

    They did it, "because it had to be done".

    Others did it to the wrong people, and became known as the worst criminals in history.
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #132 - June 17, 2016, 01:06 AM

    Admirable insistence on evidence based thinking, Absurdist, and a timely reminder that we are all capable of heinous things if left unchecked with propitious conditions.
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #133 - June 17, 2016, 07:21 AM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=405&v=36QWM_JL-lA

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #134 - June 17, 2016, 02:21 PM

    Think Omar Mateen must have been mentally ill to shoot 49 people dead? Sorry, that's too simple

    A sick act demands a sick mind, surely? That seems reasonable until you follow your own logic down a rabbit-hole of unintended prejudice

    Was Omar Mateen, the Orlando shooter who killed 49 people in a gay club this weekend, mentally ill? He certainly seems to have harboured some seriously disturbing thoughts, but as far as diagnoses from official sources go, nothing has been forthcoming.

    Instead, we’ve been treated to a deluge of online armchair psychiatrists declaring that he was “mentally unstable”, “probably mentally unwell” or “showing signs of mental ill health”. If you think people Googling their cold symptoms and becoming convinced they’re dying of cancer is bad, you should see the open-source diagnostic love-in that goes on every time somebody commits a truly atrocious crime.

    Our rush to call a killer mentally ill seems to come from a sort of wonky well-meaning: people assume that in order to commit a massacre or a particularly sadistic murder, the perpetrator would have to be in a state of mind so utterly different to any normal person that they may as well qualify as unwell. A sick act, surely, demands a sick mind.

    That seems reasonable, until you follow your own logic down a rabbit-hole of unintended prejudice.

    None of us wants to think that we’re a potential murderer, a baby shaker, or a rapist; I get that. But invoking “mental health” as the sole and isolated reason for a 49-body massacre does us no favours as a society. It’s a convenient way to dismiss a very inconvenient truth: that any one of us has the potential, given the right set of circumstances, to do something terrible.

    When you go about openly wondering whether Mateen might have had a touch of bipolar or some schizophrenic tendencies, or could have been in the midst of a major depressive episode, you also perpetuate some very dangerous ideas about people with mental illness.

    We each want to separate ourselves from the dark and depraved rabble with the ability to commit violent crimes. Antenatal classes that discuss the risk of shaking tiny babies, for example, have anecdotally low attendance rates: everybody thinks to themselves, it would never be me.

    Claiming someone was mentally ill when they committed a terrible crime is an extension of this type of thinking. The self-appointed shrinks who’ll tell you a murderer was mentally unstable are people who have never suffered from mental illness themselves. Their offhand comments about are little more than a classic exercise in ‘othering’. By claiming that Mateen must have suffered from an illness that, happily, most people aren’t afflicted with, they hold his crimes at arm’s length; they reassure themselves that people like them aren’t the type who’d do anything like that. Hence the friends and family wheeled out every time this happens who say, about their perfectly normal-seeming son, “But I didn’t think someone like him would do that.”

    You can’t protect yourself from violent crime by avoiding people with mental illness – not even the ones with that hysteria-inducing disorder paranoid schizophrenia. But you can protect mentally ill people from the burden of unnecessary prejudice by being smarter about how you label murderers.

    Those who carry out atrocities may have harboured ideas you find objectionable or disturbing, but the fact that you take issue with the contents of their mental lives doesn’t mean they were suffering from mental illness.

    Perhaps Omar Mateen was radicalised over the internet by Islamist fundamentalists based in Syria. Perhaps he was a self-hating gay man raised in a homophobic household. Perhaps he was an aggressive social outcast and wife-beater who lived in a country where it’s easier to buy a gun than good quality cheese. Perhaps he really did have a diagnosable mental illness that affected his perception of reality.

    Perhaps all of the above is true. But even if it is, that doesn’t mean he or the society that drove him to this atrocity is off the hook. The problems that lead to the death of 49 gay people in an Orlando nightclub at the hands of a regular clubber are far bigger than one person’s mind.

    The Independent


    People like to believe they are good and acts of evil are an aberration. To do otherwise many would never be able to sleep at night. However in many cases the judgement of an act being evil is made after the fact thus is a value judgement. These values are grounded in some sort of worldview which is the basis of judging X right or wrong. What people often fail to consider is that many people's acts are not consider evil by the perpetrator at the time. Their acts are often based on some justification that is later rejected by others or not shared. Also people at times denounce an act as evil but within their own worldview ignore similar acts of what they call evil. For example many Christians will say genocide is evil but willing accept genocide as right if an act and/or command via their deity; Biblical Flood, Conquest of Canaan, etc.. Mental illness is used as a scapegoat so people can feel that it is impossible for them to perpetuate these acts and to ignore an evaluation of their own worldviews. Heck even outside of religion concepts such as total war are seen a justified by many but include acts that would be unjustified outside this concept or even employ a double-standard from case to case. For example justification of civilian bombing was justified in WW2, in other cases such as recent wars it isn't. People follow what they deem justified at the moment only later to change their minds. Which shows that people more often than not use justification that is subjective thus subject to change.
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #135 - June 17, 2016, 03:09 PM

    Think Omar Mateen must have been mentally ill to shoot 49 people dead? Sorry, that's too simple

    [quote][i]A sick act demands a sick mind, surely? That seems reasonable until you follow your own logic down a rabbit-hole of unintended prejudice[/i]

    Was Omar Mateen, the Orlando shooter who killed 49 people in a gay club this weekend, mentally ill? He certainly seems to have harboured some seriously disturbing thoughts, but as far as diagnoses from official sources go, nothing has been forthcoming.

    Instead, we’ve been treated to a deluge of online armchair psychiatrists declaring that he was “mentally unstable”, “probably mentally unwell” or “showing signs of mental ill health”. If you think people Googling their cold symptoms and becoming convinced they’re dying of cancer is bad, you should see the open-source diagnostic love-in that goes on every time somebody commits a truly atrocious crime.

    Our rush to call a killer mentally ill seems to come from a sort of wonky well-meaning: people assume that in order to commit a massacre or a particularly sadistic murder, the perpetrator would have to be in a state of mind so utterly different to any normal person that they may as well qualify as unwell. A sick act, surely, demands a sick mind.

    That seems reasonable, until you follow your own logic down a rabbit-hole of unintended prejudice.

    None of us wants to think that we’re a potential murderer, a baby shaker, or a rapist; I get that. But invoking “mental health” as the sole and isolated reason for a 49-body massacre does us no favours as a society. It’s a convenient way to dismiss a very inconvenient truth: that any one of us has the potential, given the right set of circumstances, to do something terrible.

    When you go about openly wondering whether Mateen might have had a touch of bipolar or some schizophrenic tendencies, or could have been in the midst of a major depressive episode, you also perpetuate some very dangerous ideas about people with mental illness.

    We each want to separate ourselves from the dark and depraved rabble with the ability to commit violent crimes. Antenatal classes that discuss the risk of shaking tiny babies, for example, have anecdotally low attendance rates: everybody thinks to themselves, [i]it would never be me[/i].

    Claiming someone was mentally ill when they committed a terrible crime is an extension of this type of thinking. The self-appointed shrinks who’ll tell you a murderer was mentally unstable are people who have never suffered from mental illness themselves. Their offhand comments about are little more than a classic exercise in ‘othering’. By claiming that Mateen must have suffered from an illness that, happily, most people aren’t afflicted with, they hold his crimes at arm’s length; they reassure themselves that [i]people like them[/i] aren’t the type who’d do [i]anything like that[/i]. Hence the friends and family wheeled out every time this happens who say, about their perfectly normal-seeming son, “But I didn’t think someone like [i]him[/i] would do that.”

    You can’t protect yourself from violent crime by avoiding people with mental illness – not even the ones with that hysteria-inducing disorder paranoid schizophrenia. But you can protect mentally ill people from the burden of unnecessary prejudice by being smarter about how you label murderers.

    Those who carry out atrocities may have harboured ideas you find objectionable or disturbing, but the fact that you take issue with the contents of their mental lives doesn’t mean they were suffering from mental illness.

    Perhaps Omar Mateen was radicalised over the internet by Islamist fundamentalists based in Syria. Perhaps he was a self-hating gay man raised in a homophobic household. Perhaps he was an aggressive social outcast and wife-beater who lived in a country where it’s easier to buy a gun than good quality cheese. Perhaps he really [i]did[/i] have a diagnosable mental illness that affected his perception of reality.

    Perhaps all of the above is true. But even if it is, that doesn’t mean he or the society that drove him to this atrocity is off the hook. The problems that lead to the death of 49 gay people in an Orlando nightclub at the hands of a regular clubber are far bigger than one person’s mind.

    [url=http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/omar-mateen-orlando-nightclub-shooting-mentally-ill-49-people-dead-sorry-too-simple-a7082091.html]The Independent[/url]

    hidden words from  Absurdist are insanely GEMMISH,,  that could also be mental lol.,

    but   when this brutal rogue Omar Mateen kill 49 people that have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING ...HIS WORK..HIS FAITH.. HIS ISLAM  .HIS FAMILY.. and call that as mental illness.,Then what is NOT mental illness., and I blame mental illness  and I say that s the reason WHY ALL THESE ROGUES I SEE IN THESE VIDEOS PREACH HATE  INDEED THEY ARE ARE MENTALLY  ILL..

    Quote


    1000 s of videos out there.. all those scoundrels NEVER KILLED ANY ONE  but preach killing so some one else will do that job sure they are mental



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #136 - June 18, 2016, 09:21 AM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-QFCJh_dZA

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #137 - June 18, 2016, 09:21 AM

    An Orlando Muslim’s heartfelt words on nightclub mass shooting

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx-2RpC4alg


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #138 - June 18, 2016, 07:49 PM

    America Orlando merciless killing of innocents  by Mr. Nouman Ali Khan

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyCPVPVZmGA

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #139 - June 25, 2016, 10:47 PM


    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
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