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 Topic: Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news

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  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #30 - June 13, 2016, 09:25 AM

    This is how I see it. This man was probably mentally ill, or at least had some serious mental/emotional issues he couldn't deal with. And as it is with most mentally ill people who commit these types of crimes, they always justify them somehow. With their delusions. In this case, it might be so that he justified it with Islam, because he identified as Muslim and that was his way of life. It doesn't mean that Islam as a religion should take responsibility. Nor do Muslims in general take responsibility. However, it is the Muslim community's task to stand up and condemn hatred and bigotry against the LGBTQ+ community, period. Because someone tried to use their religion and belief to harm and kill, to discriminate and oppress, others. And this is where the problems start for the Muslim community.

    On one hand, due to real life bigotry and hatred against Muslims and an over-vilification and bigoted generalization of Islam, you have the Muslim community up in arms afraid of being "unjustly judged" or worried that the already existing and harmful "Islamophobia" (I prefer not to use the word, because of it's confusing definition, but it'll work here for now) will grow and become even more aggressive. On the other hand, there is a real big problem with homophobia within the Muslim community, and Islam as a set of values and morals. How are they supposed to come out and condemn it? Even among the more moderate Muslims, you have preachers say "well, we don't condemn homosexuals but homosexuality is a sin". The tiny minority of so called progressives who actually stand up for LGBTQ+ is so small that it's ridiculous.

    How are all these Muslim preachers supposed to handle this issue, when they are afraid that they will receive criticism from Muslims (and Allah, I guess...) if they condemn these crimes and show support to the LGBTQ+. Because everything that is not patriarchal hetero-normative within-marriage-yada-yada is something they actually condemn and see as sin that will be punished in the afterlife (and possibly the here and now). What if someone gets the idea that Muslim/Islam+LGBTQ = valid ? This is not what these preachers stand for, unfortunately. And this confusion and problem is the reason for the recurring farce that is "the Muslim community's handling of whatever issue"...


    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #31 - June 13, 2016, 09:37 AM

    I wonder how eager "peaceful" muslims will be to denounce these shootings?


    i'm so tired of this.

    do you know any muslims?
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #32 - June 13, 2016, 09:38 AM

    Will also be interesting to see what kind of impact this horrible incident may have on the current US elections.. Perhaps Hillary's presidential campaign will be slightly affected


    off course it will get affected suki., In the first term of that  republican president Junior Bush ., it was razor thin questionable majority he won elections and in the second term after that 9/11  it was total majority..  That is what democracy is all about .. Swaying public opinion at a right time.,  And if the people do not talk .. don not question.. people do not go for voting, freedom of expression is curtailed  then it is slippery slope for democracy also.,

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #33 - June 13, 2016, 09:45 AM

    Husseini Islamic Center, Orlando 2013
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBlwxqqAprQ


    this is frighting. he speaks so confidently and so softly....'death is the sentence...there's nothing to be embarrassed about this'...its menacing. could be a scene from the godfather.
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #34 - June 13, 2016, 09:55 AM

    This is how I see it. This man was probably mentally ill, or at least had some serious mental/emotional issues he couldn't deal with.  
    And as it is with most mentally ill people who commit these types of crimes, they always justify them somehow. With their delusions. In this case, it might be so that he justified it with Islam, because he identified as Muslim and that was his way of life. It doesn't mean that Islam as a religion should take responsibility. Nor do Muslims in general take responsibility. However, it is the Muslim community's task to stand up and condemn hatred and bigotry against the LGBTQ+ community, period. Because someone tried to use [i]their [/i]religion and belief to harm and kill, to discriminate and oppress, others. And this is where the problems start for the Muslim community. 

    On one hand, due to real life bigotry and hatred against Muslims and an over-vilification and bigoted generalization of Islam, you have the Muslim community up in arms afraid of being "unjustly judged" or worried that the already existing and harmful "Islamophobia" (I prefer not to use the word, because of it's confusing definition, but it'll work here for now) will grow and become even more aggressive. On the other hand, there [i]is [/i]a real big problem with homophobia within the Muslim community, and Islam as a set of values and morals. How are they supposed to come out and condemn it?
    ....Even among the more moderate Muslims, you have preachers say "well, we don't condemn homosexuals but homosexuality is a sin". The tiny minority of so called progressives who actually stand up for LGBTQ+ is so small that it's ridiculous.

    Quote
    How are all these Muslim preachers supposed to handle this issue, when they are afraid that they will receive criticism from Muslims (and Allah, I guess...) if they condemn these crimes and show support to the LGBTQ+. Because everything that is not patriarchal hetero-normative within-marriage-yada-yada is something they actually condemn and see as sin that will be punished in the afterlife (and possibly the here and now).

     What if someone gets the idea that Muslim/Islam+LGBTQ = valid ? This is not what these preachers stand for, unfortunately. And this confusion and problem is the reason for the recurring farce that is "the Muslim community's handling of whatever issue"...

    well lot of text and well written but  that bold lettered words with this question of yours., I will answer Cornflower.,  .. and I would add another word to that question "Leaders in Islam"  (political/community)

    Quote
    How are all these Muslim preachers & Leaders (political/ community) supposed to handle this issue, when they are afraid ..?

    I will answer that question in a very rude manners.,  

     If these idiots who proselytize Islam with rigid rules in Mosques and the leaders who support such  rag heads  financially or other wise.,  if  these Islam preaching bums in mosques  are afraid of some shit in their brain or afraid of Muslim baboons who use violence in support of their faith   Then they must get out of that preaching...

    These violent acts of Muslim rogues whether they are mentally sick or otherwise ., the blame should clearly goes o the preachers of Islam .. In home or and in Mosques..   .,

    What the hell ., Just go and kill people who never hurt them and their Islam?, what did LGBT community do these rogues and their Islam? If you are fighting against those who are fighting Islam/Muslims  go fight American Army or some infidel army..   without doubt the blame squarely goes to those who preach Islam overtly or covertly.

    can't we ask same question to other faiths and faith heads? why don''t they go and kill these LGBT folks?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #35 - June 13, 2016, 09:57 AM

    i'm so tired of this.

    do you know any muslims?


    She already explained above that she made a mistake, give her a break : )
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #36 - June 13, 2016, 10:31 AM

    Please, everybody, get this in proportion. Average number of people killed by terrorists in the EU over the past decade is 50 per year, in a population of 500 million. Average number killed in road accidents 25,000 a year (and Europe is the safest continent to drive in). Terrorist deaths in Europe peaked in the 1970s and 80s (IRA, ETA, Red Brigades - not a Muslim in sight). Certain parts of the world are more peaceful as terrorism has ceased - my son recently had a great holiday in Colombia.

    Trouble is, these incidents are whipped up into hysteria by the news media (which is exactly what the terrorists want) while good news and road accidents don't make national media. Outside the Middle East the world is currently very peaceful (holiday in Vietnam anybody? would not have done that when I was younger)

    America will always get occasional mass shootings because of their stupid gun laws, but they pale compared to the 11,000 a year total killed by handguns

    Best way to defeat the terrorists is Keep Calm and Carry On. It worked with the IRA, in the end. Terrorism almost never succeeds, but it takes a long low level conflict to defeat it.
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #37 - June 13, 2016, 10:46 AM

    Mommy, I love you’:.... a 30 year old  texts his mother from inside Florida nightclub  ..

    Quote
    Eddie was normally a homebody who liked to eat and work out. He liked to make everyone laugh. He worked as an accountant and lived in a condo in downtown Orlando. “Lives in a sky house, like the Jeffersons,” she would say. “He lives rich.”

    She knew he was gay

    Authorities confirmed that her son had died in the early hours of Monday morning.


    "Mommy, I love you’"  ....and they are his last words.. read that heart breaking story at that link..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #38 - June 13, 2016, 10:47 AM


    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #39 - June 13, 2016, 11:19 AM

    all kinds of fuckwits getting in on the act but this guy is particularly nasty


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?a=&feature=youtu.be&v=EUOBFjRGvPI&app=desktop

    According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #40 - June 13, 2016, 11:32 AM

    a small video from inside the club just as the shooting starts

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJKmxqCPdfw

    According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #41 - June 13, 2016, 11:54 AM

    Please, everybody, get this in proportion. Average number of people killed by terrorists in the EU over the past decade is 50 per year, in a population of 500 million. Average number killed in road accidents 25,000 a year (and Europe is the safest continent to drive in). Terrorist deaths in Europe peaked in the 1970s and 80s (IRA, ETA, Red Brigades - not a Muslim in sight). Certain parts of the world are more peaceful as terrorism has ceased - my son recently had a great holiday in Colombia.

    Trouble is, these incidents are whipped up into hysteria by the news media (which is exactly what the terrorists want) while good news and road accidents don't make national media. Outside the Middle East the world is currently very peaceful (holiday in Vietnam anybody? would not have done that when I was younger)

    America will always get occasional mass shootings because of their stupid gun laws, but they pale compared to the 11,000 a year total killed by handguns

    Best way to defeat the terrorists is Keep Calm and Carry On. It worked with the IRA, in the end. Terrorism almost never succeeds, but it takes a long low level conflict to defeat it.


    I'm lost for words. I'm just going to quote your post in the hope that some time in the future you come back on and ask me to delete it due to the embarrassment you feel for having made it. and I would delete it ,because no-one should be made to look that stupid longer than necessary.

    According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #42 - June 13, 2016, 12:14 PM

    The bible thumper guy.

    I haven't laughed so hard for a while.

    I just had to comment. Dude is 100% neck-deep in it.

    We should kill them, but not by using vigilante justice. We should kill them using proper channels.... Gee, makes everything sounds better... NOT.
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #43 - June 13, 2016, 01:07 PM

    I'm lost for words. I'm just going to quote your post in the hope that some time in the future you come back on and ask me to delete it due to the embarrassment you feel for having made it. and I would delete it ,because no-one should be made to look that stupid longer than necessary.


    Have to agree.  Terrorism wasn't defeated in Northern Ireland by everybody keeping calm and carrying on, it was defeated by enticing Sinn Féin into normal politics through a peace process.  I don't think that option has any hope of working with self radicalised loonies who've been watching Isis videos on the internet.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #44 - June 13, 2016, 01:14 PM

    i'm so tired of this.

    do you know any muslims?


    Yes I know lots of muslims. Went to iftar last night. The kutbah was all about how muslims should react to backlash from this incident. The imam explicitly refused to either condemn or condone the shooting.
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #45 - June 13, 2016, 01:26 PM

    Yes I know lots of muslims. Went to iftar last night. The kutbah was all about how muslims should react to backlash from this incident. The imam explicitly refused to either condemn or condone the shooting.

    well don't miss the dinners in Ramzan times ... if you do that allah will  make you more angry lol..., 

    what did  the kutbaher teach and what did you learn fool me once ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #46 - June 13, 2016, 01:47 PM

    Yeez... I learned that muslims should just ignore the backlash and concentrate on racking up as many jannah brownie points as possible during Ramadan
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #47 - June 13, 2016, 01:59 PM

    Milo Yiannopoulos (Gay Brit campaigning for Trump) is in Orlando now and will have a lecture later this week. When he gets on stage it's usually more or less chaotic with feminist/leftist/blacklivesmatter, #repressiveleft, storming the stage so this could get... 'interesting'.
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #48 - June 13, 2016, 02:01 PM

    Yeez... I learned that muslims should just ignore the backlash and concentrate on racking up as many jannah brownie points as possible during Ramadan

    you have a point there fool me once.,.....that is true  they do that often after such horrible murders..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #49 - June 13, 2016, 02:12 PM

    Can you blame them when most Muslims will say "It's not Islam" etc? To that degree Muslims make themselves distrusted as they would prefer emotionally to protect their "safety-blanket", than to accept its not perfect (to do so they may view as blasphemy/apostasy) and only use the nicer bits of it.


    But can you blame someone for the knee-jerk reaction? By saying "it's not Islam" they simultaneously distance themselves from the unspeakable atrocity de jour, while at the same time not having to critically examine the "safety blanket", in their mind killing two birds in one stone.

    Here's the thing. They shouldn't have to feel any of the pressure to do the former, while the latter is something they absolutely have to do. And I support people, even angry people, who are willing to engage in the dialogue that is needed to confront mainstream Islamic thought. It absolutely has to be done, and only through doing so do we end up realizing any real progress in Muslim thought.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #50 - June 13, 2016, 02:27 PM

    Have to agree.  Terrorism wasn't defeated in Northern Ireland by everybody keeping calm and carrying on, it was defeated by enticing Sinn Féin into normal politics through a peace process.  I don't think that option has any hope of working with self radicalised loonies who've been watching Isis videos on the internet.

    yes that would be one of the points I would make but the jist of the OP was to say ' Let's not get worried about some guy killing people out for fun and harming no-one because, hey cars kill people too' 
    I can't think of a more inane way to look at it.   How can you compare accidental deaths to a guy walking into a place where people are just socializing and kill 50 of them?

    Hey people die,all the time so let's not get heated up about a few folk getting slaughtered. Sheeeesh.

    According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #51 - June 13, 2016, 02:51 PM

     I have posted similar to my post above on several forums, and been accused of being cold, heartless and indifferent to the fate of the victims, which is not true. Of course one is outraged at this, and extend one's sympathy to the victims and their relatives; the point is that this will happen again and again, and that the impact on our society should be minor as long as we all keep calm but steadfast in fighting this evil. I accept that the way I put it was extremely clumsy. Extremists thrive on publicity and hate, calm resolve will defeat them. Liberal democratic society is tougher than it looks, it managed to see off Fascism and Communism.

    I am sure that ISIS would love to see Trump as the next US president, and even more people unable to distinguish between hating extremist Islam and hating all Muslims.

    The current loonies are not Sinn Fein, agreed, but they do resemble Communist nutters of the Red Brigades and the Rote Armee who were active in the 70s. Steadfast resolve and their actions getting nowhere will eventually get them to lose recruits and support. Sadly it will take years and a further body count.
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #52 - June 13, 2016, 03:23 PM

    Quote
    Sadly it will take years and a further body count.


    If you actually believe this, you should volunteer your life first.

    It's not about coldness, it's about real concern over people's lives.

    It seems that you would just "keep calm" as long as the bodies that fall are not yours... Or anybody important to you.

    Quote
    Steadfast resolve and their actions getting nowhere will eventually get them to lose recruits and support.


    This is very naive. I lived in Indonesia and we had periodical terrorist attacks, despite having "steadfast resolve" (muslims in Indonesia do not think that Islam is at fault, of course) and despite the fact that the vast, vast majority of local muslims being moderate/liberal. Muslims are at the top of social hierarchy in Indonesia, and terrorism still happens.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Indonesia
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #53 - June 13, 2016, 03:32 PM

    I am deeply saddened by this incident. 50 innocent lives lost just like that.

    Going through the comment section, I see a lot of Muslims shouting the flawed logic that "White shooter = troubled, Muslim shooter = terrorist". Let me debunk this here:

    Apart from only a hand full of exceptions like Breivik, most of these non Muslim mass murderers aren't motivated by any religious or political views. They are mostly just mentally ill people who managed to acquire deadly assault weapons due to USA's relaxed gun laws, and next minute their barbaric acts cost us hundreds of innocent lives. They don't do it for a personal, religious or political gains. Look at the recent murder of Christina Grimmie, or the Sandy Hook massacre, or the Colorado Cinema shooting, Port Arthur massacre here in Australia, the list just goes on. None of these low life attackers went on to publicly declare allegiance to any political or religious groups. They had nothing to gain, they were just a bunch of psychopaths. They were not trying to use terror as a means of coercion.

    But when we look at Muslim terrorist attacks like the one at the Orlando bar, or at the Boston marathon, 7-7, Fort Hood shooting and numerous other incidents, every time we saw the Muslims attackers pledge allegiance to either Al Qaida or ISIS, or some other Islamist organisation. They committed an act of violence in order to send a message, in order to intimidate. That's why most of the shootings committed by Muslims are rightfully labelled an act of terrorism (if they have openly declared their reason behind committing the attacks as Islam). We can and should hold Islam responsible.

    Now I am not saying other religions don't have fanatics who commits terrorism- they do. But most certainly not anywhere near the scale of the ones by Muslims. Again, I hate saying this multiple times-

    most Muslims (99.99%)-> not a problem. Most of my friends whom I grew up with are still devout Muslims. And some of them are the best people I have ever met. But that is despite Islam, not because of it.

    Islam -> colossal problem.

    Aloha Ackbar
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #54 - June 13, 2016, 03:42 PM

    Islam -> colossal problem. Needs to be exterminated.


    Deep, but sadly more at home in the pages of Stormfront than it will ever be here. Off you go.
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #55 - June 13, 2016, 03:50 PM

    Well, I didn't mean it like that. It's just that the world would be a much better place without Islam than with. I was a Muslim once, everyone is so blinded by Islam that only a few ever question it.

    And we only risk losing good people to the grasp of extremism when they start digging deep into the Quran and the Hadith. I don't see how this is a racial issue, I never said Breivik should be a role model.

    I strongly believe that Islam promotes hatred, and any sane person should be afraid of the true Islam. Not the Islam most moderate Muslims practise.

    Aloha Ackbar
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #56 - June 13, 2016, 04:00 PM

    Hear, hear.


    I don't understand how educated and friendly members loose their respect towards other members so easily that they even support verbal attacks against other members. We are one community and we shouldn't loose our respect towards each other. If you disagree with an opinion then say it or ignore it.

    @Hassan: you are older and wiser than most of us. But I have the feeling that you attack and unfriend anyone who dares to speak negatively against Islam and it's followers, since you got a Muslim or agnostic Muslim again.

    I guess fool me once has enough friends and family members to differentiate between peaceful Muslims and the problems of Islam itself.
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #57 - June 13, 2016, 04:14 PM

    Actually if you read all my posts right from the very beginning of this forum you will find I'm exactly the same as I've always been.

    Very hot headed if my Spidey senses detect a hater.

    I often get it wrong, & make lots of mistakes - and I can be a real arsehole at times.

    I've ALWAYS been like that - so don't give me that shit about "since becoming an Agnostic Muslim" crap.

    But I don't give a fuck -  I am who I am - you can take it or leave it.
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #58 - June 13, 2016, 04:36 PM

    Lol trying to bring respectability politics into ex-Muslim spaces. Fuck that shit. Some opinions don't deserve respect. And some people don't deserve respect. We're not "one community". People who want to point fingers at Muslims all the fucking time are absolutely not people I want in a community.
  • Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting says news
     Reply #59 - June 13, 2016, 04:43 PM

    Well, at some members you might be right. Some of them have never been Muslims and just join the community because they are bigots. I understand if you don't show respect to them.

    But I don't think that this is the case with fool me once.
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