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 Topic: Khutbah on Attack in Nice, France.

 (Read 5774 times)
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  • Khutbah on Attack in Nice, France.
     Reply #30 - July 18, 2016, 07:02 AM

    I don't expect my stay here to end any differently from that of Asma bint Marwan in Mecca back in the day, only a matter of time before some 'prophet' goes "who will take care of this problem for me" and a follower duly obliges!  Smiley


    WTF!!! Cheesy

  • Khutbah on Attack in Nice, France.
     Reply #31 - July 18, 2016, 12:56 PM

    Yeah, quite obvious now that the dude is a loon. Better to ignore, methinks.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Khutbah on Attack in Nice, France.
     Reply #32 - July 18, 2016, 03:08 PM

    Fast forward.   Accomplices are being investigated.  The driver/shooter was taking drugs, drinking alcohol and enjoying sex with many people.  He send home money to his family before the attack.  The earlier story had mosque officials denying that he was ever associated with any mosques which was not true. 

    Maybe I should have a separate topic about my spiritualism experiences.  What I have to relate about my belief about hell might help some people? 

    The unreligion, only one calorie
  • Khutbah on Attack in Nice, France.
     Reply #33 - July 18, 2016, 04:28 PM

    Maybe I should have a separate topic about my spiritualism experiences.  What I have to relate about my belief about hell might help some people? 


    It's definitely not related to this topic, so that would probably be best.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Khutbah on Attack in Nice, France.
     Reply #34 - July 19, 2016, 01:28 AM

    Excellent response, Berbs - thank you hugs

    Dear Islamophobigot, I am never an apologist for Islam. I'm trying hard to open up the eyes of Muslims - my family, friends, colleagues, community - to the supremacist and dehumanising issues within Islam itself. I want Muslims themselves to recognise the problems with Islam, so we can start confronting them rather than the usual denial, anger and blaming others.

    Whether I get anywhere or not - who knows - but I will try, because IMHO it is the most human thing to do.

    Thanks.


    Dear Mr. Hassan,

    I think of you as one of the most spiritual, honest, and sincere persons I have come across.  I say this from the bottom of my heart: no amounts of words can suffice to applaud and to show my appreciation for what you have done with CEMB, your personal spiritual journey, and your discovery process.  In addition, I think you are truly a scholar on islam as well as Arabic.  As I mentioned in my first response, I truly hope Allah guides you on the right path and help you succeed in all your endeavors especially where you say, "we have to find a way of defeating the lunatics."  Here, I'm assuming, by your current position as an agnostic muslim, you retain full faith in a certain Almighty known as Allah in the Arabic tradition.

    Please note also I'm no scholar, of anything in general but of islam in particular.  My situation is akin to a scarcely educated person who having read a few books on astronomy starts trying to communicate knowledgeably with a credentialed astrophysicist!  I'm generally quite aware of my limitations and normally I tend to be most deferential to anyone learned.  If my response came across as derogatory, inflammatory, and cutting, it is only because of an extreme exception I'm making for the politico-religious system under discussion; I feel compelled because of what I find to be extreme deception surrounding it, particularly in public discourse.  In addition, there is so much effort to suppress information which is so bothersome to me in consideration of such supremacist views on the other side.  In the meantime, death counts are piling up as if human lives mean nothing.

    Under such background, your "khutbah" came across as highly sincere and well-meaning but missing some key aspects, to my simple-minded view on what is at stake and what it would take to truly alter the trajectory.

    Now one thing I am absolutely firm and unwavering on is the separation of ideology from people.  I have been and I will always aspire to be non-violent.  I do not ever wish for any form of physical injury to anyone, let alone a paper cut from any of my ramblings (thus no hardcopies) and to generally strive for  brevity, lest someone should develop a repetitive stress disorder from repeated mouse clicks  Smiley  A few bruised egos or cases of hurt pride here and there on account of my words, I do not mind with respect to the system in question  Smiley

    Since I came in cold to this forum and to this thread, it's understandable none of the above views would have stood out in my write-up.  Let me assure you I sincerely mean each and above of my words.  And I do NOT think you are any form of an apologist.  Most importantly though, I truly believe you have nothing to apologize for.   I consider your life, a true one, similar to that of Muhammed Ali, totally apart from my views which remain in total agreement with those of Sam Harris et al., as I stated in my first write-up.

    If I still have your attention, will it possible to know what exactly made you think I viewed you as an apologist?  Are there any particular statements or collection of comments that made you think that way?

    Best Regards and sincere wishes to you on all your efforts, mankind truly needs it now more than ever,

    P.S.> To what extent you think Wikiislam.net site is reliable?
  • Khutbah on Attack in Nice, France.
     Reply #35 - July 19, 2016, 01:42 AM

    WTF!!! Cheesy




    Note the smiley face in my response to yeezevee: I had meant it as a joke (and note all of mine are poor, nonetheless I try).  The point I am trying to make is this: as I mentioned in the previous post, I separate ideology from people and the problems I see are fundamental in nature with the system that tries to claim perfection and seems to include the "religion of peace".  But I am NOT trying to imply anything against the people.  And I was most conscious of this in my first write-up to you.  Yet one of the earliest responses from Absurdist was I should "go back to ...", almost as a threat.  And what came to my mind was this:

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Muhammad_and_Mass_Murder#Murder_of_.60Asma.27_Bint_Marwan

    where it says, "When the apostle heard what she had said he said, "Who will rid me of Marwan's daughter?""  I was trying to imply a few more posts by me conveying what I have understood of islam thus far and someone with influence on this forum (perhaps Absurdist himself!) will demand CEMB admins to get rid of me, you know as an attempt to suppress the kind of criticism I bring, similar to what is implied in the above parable when it came to criticism of the so-called prophet and his system!!   Cheesy

    Hope it makes sense now!
  • Khutbah on Attack in Nice, France.
     Reply #36 - July 19, 2016, 01:45 AM

    Yeah, quite obvious now that the dude is a loon. Better to ignore, methinks.


    @asbie,

    "a loon" - very much so   Cheesy

    I strive hard to speak my mind and be frank but few can hear what I have to say.  I need to read and learn more.

    Regards,

  • Khutbah on Attack in Nice, France.
     Reply #37 - July 19, 2016, 11:37 AM

    Hey islamophobigot and welcome here.

    Let me tell you for what it’s worth that there’s nothing explicit in what you typed which warrants anyone charging you with Muslimphobia.

    You might otherwise be fantastically Muslimphobic but there’s nothing you typed so far that is as such.

    I do not think that you would be faced with such dismissive posts if you had been quite known on the forum, nor would you be forced to declare your position on things which are not contained within what you typed — and within the OP for that matter.

    It’s rash and lazy to regard your lack of personal direct experience with Islam as sufficient evidence for your Muslimphobia. And engaging with you doesn’t seem to me to require anyone to dig deeper in their interpersonal reserves or be as patient as a saint.

    Further, there’s nothing in what you typed which justifies the immaturity of you being called names by others. Let it be rightist, nitwit or a loon.

    The question of whether or not Islamophobia and Muslimphobia are two non-overlapping magisteria is one of interest to explore at depth. Interesting indeed to find out how and when does what Islamophobic people (like me) say and write become Muslimphobic. This is irrespective of one’s intentions of course, because the world as it is takes one by mere suspicion and would seek to barricade and intellectually quarantine one until it is reassured, through things like more data, that one did neither belong to nor is supportive of what the world considers a red line (in this case, that would be Muslimphobia).

    I welcome the spirit with which you say you have come here; to enquire and learn from others, within the boundaries of decency and respect.

    However, where I find you might have given an unfortunate impression which explains why others do not appear to have taken a shine to you personally (even though what you said is nothing out of the ordinary on the forum) is the variety and the quantity of the things you have said in answer to the fairly straightforward Khuttbah.

    What was it in the Khuttbah which made you think that Hassan had to ask himself the fundamental questions you posed?

    As for Point 1, Hassan did not claim these phenomena new and if you don't mind me saying, I fail to see its relevance to the senseless killings in Nice or the Khutbah.

    The story of the poetess Asma bint Marwan who was killed on the Prophet Muhammad's orders is mentioned in Sira/biography books, including Zad al-Ma'ad. Ibn Taymiyyah's As Sarim al Maslool ala Shatim ir Rasool can be said to have been based on it and such other incidents.

    However, I fail to see why you seem to think this story is pertinent to the killings in Nice. I admit I have not been closely keeping up with the news regarding Mohamed Lahouaiyej Bouhlel's explicit motives. But there's nothing in media reports, as far as I know, which says that Bouhlel rammed and shot at the victims in Nice because the victims had attacked or criticized the Prophet Muhammad, Islam or the Qur'an.

    The other historical account you cite, to support the notion that Islam is not peaceful at its point of origin, is that of the 'massacre' of Banu Qurayza, after the Battle of the Trench. This story too does not seem to me to be of direct relevance to the killings in Nice carried out by Bouhlel.

    The admirable spirit with which you have come here makes me believe that you would not cite this incident if you did not read the authenticated accounts for it in textual Islam in full. If so, then you would know that the Prophet Muhammad had laid siege to Banu Qurayza for their breaching of the treaty of common defence which they had had with him and as a retaliatory act in war time for Banu Qurayza attempting to attack Muslim women from within the trenches.

    You would also know that what is reported to have taken place was not a massacre in the strict sense of a wholesale killing of people. If numbers are what we want to go by, then there's justification, albeit it meagre, for us to be loose with words.

    However, the exact punishment of Banu Qurayza, as reported in primary Islamic records, was as follows:

    a) slaughtering all men of fighting age (and this was ascertained in at least one case by undressing a boy to see if he had pubic hair),
    b) enslaving Banu Qurayza women and children,
    c) confiscating their money and wealth.

    The textual accounts state that the Jews of Banu Qurayza were asked to choose who should arbitrate their punishment for committing what for Muslims was indisputable treason. Banu Qurayza thus chose a person whom they had thought to be lenient with them because this person, Saad bin Muadh, was their ally.

    Saad bin Muadh, who was the chief of the Banu Aus tribe in Medina, was Banu Qurayza's ally before Islam but he still passed the judgment above on them.  

    Now, whether this punishment as a historical event is warranted, appropriate or justifiable is not what I am interested to explore in relation to Point 1 in your reply to the Khuttbah by Hassan.

    If we try to apply the lessons of this historical account, then the conclusion you are trying to arrive at (that Islam, from its very beginning, massacres people) does not seem obvious in Bouhlel driving a lorry at hapless people and then shoot them in Nice.

    This is because the historical retaliatory act meted to Banu Qurayza in war time, by their own chosen ally, has no direct casual link, as far as you and I can glean from the Nice attacker's motives. Nor a justification in the sense of these victims having reneged on a pact of common defence with Islam or because they somehow had carried out treasonous and treacherous acts which Bouhlel was punishing them for in a similar vein and manner to Muhammad's case with Banu Qurayza.

    Your Point 2, interesting though it seems to be and be explored further, has nothing to do with the Khutbah or Hassan in particular. There's nothing in the OP which said Islam were peaceful or is capable of rendering anyone an apologist for it.

    Your Point 3 only echos what Hassan said and, if I may say so, adds nothing to it.

    Etc etc etc.
     
    In short, what I have set out to demonstrate by examining the examples you cited in Point 1 is that you hit the Khuttabah with unrelated things and thus, you have been received with what seems to me to be a harsh and dismissive treatment by others. This is not helped by you directing it all at Hassan, repeatedly by name, appearing to be trying to compel him personally to declare his intellectual position on matters he did not come up with in the Khuttabah, nor does he otherwise appear concerned with in relation to the attack in Nice.

    You see, from the periphery of such reading things into things, through surface reliance on the authenticated texts, there often occurs a blurring of the fine difference between Muslimphobia and Islamophobia.

    Of course there are well-documented incidents in earlier Islamic history which support and argue for what Antonio Elorza, and probably you too, suggest and assert; that of Islam "eliminating political opponents by any and all means possible".

    I am not going to to whatabouter here by listing it all (i.e. that assassinating, killing, crucifying, torturing, maiming, enslaving, raping, flogging, imprisoning and much else has been the fate of anyone who did not conform historically to all human endeavours at building autocratic and totalitarian societal systems in recorded history).

    I accept that we are inescapably faced in the 21st century with a perplexing reality in which every suicide bomber is Muslim but not every Muslim is a suicide bomber. Then we are permitted to ask why is this, and validly try to seek answers in a dispassionate way without having others attacking us for merely doing so.

    Islamophobigot, you can start a thread on the forum and we all can explore and retrace all the possible historical causes and even textual justifications for Islamic terrorism in modern times — such threads being tolerated, indeed encouraged on the forum. Then the question of you lingering here is going to be up to you, and there would be no need for you to suspect anyone is trying to have you eliminated because of their opposition to what you write on Islam.
  • Khutbah on Attack in Nice, France.
     Reply #38 - July 19, 2016, 12:55 PM

    oh my goodness gracious that is scary ...  Cheesy

    Wahhabist  .. you are terrorizing islamophobigot..........

    Hi  ip-bigot .,don't get scared with Wahhabist  ..you read and you type your own mind., don't change your opinions until you are very sure of what others are saying here..

    So what is cooking? are you doing your home work?? you didn't answer sahara post.. Oops I mean BerberElla.,   Read her first post at you again...,

    So were you reading Hassan and yeezevee or even BerberElla  at http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/  old forums??  or is it first time you are coming across these names??

    please continue to read and write

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Khutbah on Attack in Nice, France.
     Reply #39 - July 19, 2016, 10:33 PM

    Dear Mr. Hassan...


    It's OK we're cool - Wahhabist has explained well why I may have misunderstood your tone - stick around the forum there are some great people here to learn from.

    Re: "To what extent you think Wikiislam.net site is reliable?"

    IMHO it is a very good and well researched site. Now managed by some good friends of mine.

    Take care!
  • Khutbah on Attack in Nice, France.
     Reply #40 - July 20, 2016, 12:49 AM

    I remember that for so long (before the wikiislam.net was bought out by exmuslims) many muslims would say that wikiislam is unreliable because it mentions traditions that are not really practiced by muslims (like taqiyya). It seems that for a while, at least, wikiislam wasn't a credible source (the source they use is good, but their "analysis" was a wreck and unislamic).

    At least that's what muslims told me, so I refrain from reading that website just like I don't really want to read hate-sites like jihadwatch.

    So was this ever true? Or maybe now it's a better website because it's been taken over by exmuslims who know more about Islam?
  • Khutbah on Attack in Nice, France.
     Reply #41 - July 20, 2016, 11:42 AM

    It was in the past associated with forums like ffi/jihadwatch - but even then I have to say the articles were 'mostly' fair and well researched, in my experience.
  • Khutbah on Attack in Nice, France.
     Reply #42 - July 20, 2016, 03:10 PM

    Alright, thanks Hassan Smiley
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