Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Lights on the way
by akay
Today at 09:01 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Today at 08:53 AM

New Britain
Yesterday at 08:17 AM

Gaza assault
by zeca
November 27, 2024, 07:13 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
November 24, 2024, 06:05 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 22, 2024, 06:45 AM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
November 20, 2024, 09:02 AM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
November 19, 2024, 11:36 PM

Dutch elections
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 10:11 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 08:46 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 07, 2024, 09:56 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
November 02, 2024, 12:56 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Birmingham Quran Manuscript

 (Read 5066 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     OP - September 17, 2016, 10:33 PM

    I just came across on Wikipedia information about the Birmingham Quran Manuscript, one of the oldest found so far.  It says this confirms that the Quran has undergone little to no alteration. 

    Is this true?  I keep hearing about Quran variants, but I never actually really come across strong evidence for them...
  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     Reply #1 - September 17, 2016, 10:51 PM

    At the moment there is no hard evidence of any major variants in Qur'an text.

    Does that mean it's from God though?
  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     Reply #2 - September 17, 2016, 11:05 PM

    I'm an Atheist, but it does back up the claim that the Quran is unaltered
  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     Reply #3 - September 17, 2016, 11:29 PM

    Yes, but why should that be a problem?
  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     Reply #4 - September 19, 2016, 01:25 PM

    The 6 oldest Qurans in existence are all different to each other and different today's two Qurans in circulation, but all in minor ways. It's explained pretty well in a debate between a missionary and a code-19 Qur'anist on Youtube if you type in "The Quran Unburied Ruins- No Originals- Jay Smith vs Shabir Ally 2014". The debate starts at the 7 minute mark.

    Though the variants are minor, it proves the Qur'an hasn't been protected by Allah from change. When the Qur'an says the Qur'an is preserved in heaven on tablets, which Qur'an is it referring to? Even today, there are 2 different Qur'ans in circulation, the hafs and warsh versions.
  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     Reply #5 - September 19, 2016, 01:48 PM

    .... When the Qur'an says the Qur'an is preserved in heaven on tablets, which Qur'an is it referring to? Even today, there are 2 different Qur'ans in circulation, the hafs and warsh versions.

    That is a nonsense statement from Quran., ..Quran is full of such nonsense., It is just Quran writers added those statements  to reinforce faith in Islam in to the newly joined crowd .,

    And they ((Quran writers+ early Islamic rulers)) also used  same/similar sayings to put fear in to those who questioned Islam by physically threatening them  as well as mentally torturing them with that hell fire in the after life/after their death.....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     Reply #6 - September 19, 2016, 02:06 PM

    But is it not amazing that something as disarrayed and scattered as the Quran which was majorly oral and partly written was such well preserved?
  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     Reply #7 - September 19, 2016, 04:24 PM

    Except that it wasn’t. Even Islamic sources suggest that early on, verses were lost due to things like the skins being consumed by animals, and that different regions of the early empire had variant versions of the text that needed to be burned in order to stop people from using them. Once everything was codified into a single text and the punishment of blasphemy was established for anyone who may have doubted the official version, then it’s not surprising that we stopped seeing variants.
  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     Reply #8 - September 19, 2016, 09:15 PM

    But is it not amazing that something as disarrayed and scattered as the Quran which was majorly oral and partly written was such well preserved?


    1. See ibn Bilal's comments

    2. Does a well preserved book mean it must be from God?

    3. Let me play Devil's advocate (or Angel's advocate) and assume that it was preserved perfectly and that this can ONLY mean it was from God because he wanted this last and perfect and complete message left intact so that mankind in the future would know that the best way to deal with things is for thieves to have their hands chopped off, wives need an occasional slap, fornicators need lashing, criminals need hand and legs chopped off on opposite sides, women are only worth half the testimony of men, and you should enter your house through the front door not the back door.

    All man needs to know. Preserved perfectly. Unlike the other holy books that had ridiculous and barbaric stuff that was only for its time.
  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     Reply #9 - September 19, 2016, 10:02 PM

    And, don't forget about God eternally letting mankind know that "no blame is there upon the blind nor any blame upon the lame nor any blame upon the sick nor on yourselves if ye eat from your houses, or the houses of your fathers, or the houses of your mothers, or the houses of your brothers, or the houses of your sisters, or the houses of your fathers' brothers, or the houses of your fathers' sisters, or the houses of your mothers' brothers, or the houses of your mothers' sisters, or (from that) whereof ye hold the keys, or (from the house) of a friend. No sin shall it be for you whether ye eat together or apart. But when ye enter houses, salute one another with a greeting from Allah, blessed and sweet.

    Thus Allah maketh clear His revelations for you, that haply ye may understand."

    I'm personally glad that verse was enshrined and preserved as eloquently as God intended.

  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     Reply #10 - September 19, 2016, 10:16 PM

     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     Reply #11 - September 19, 2016, 10:28 PM

    Ahmad Qabbanji gave a lecture about this and other verses, and mocked them mercilessly. Very brave of him. I'll see if I can find the video.
  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     Reply #12 - September 19, 2016, 10:41 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=QaAag08wSHY
  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     Reply #13 - September 19, 2016, 10:42 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=HvaUMd5RFmM
  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     Reply #14 - September 19, 2016, 10:43 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=sAyGhxhc1ho
  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     Reply #15 - September 20, 2016, 02:16 AM

    And, don't forget about God eternally letting mankind know that "no blame is there upon the blind nor any blame upon the lame nor any blame upon the sick nor on yourselves if ye eat from your houses, or the houses of your fathers, or the houses of your mothers, or the houses of your brothers, or the houses of your sisters, or the houses of your fathers' brothers, or the houses of your fathers' sisters, or the houses of your mothers' brothers, or the houses of your mothers' sisters, or (from that) whereof ye hold the keys, or (from the house) of a friend. No sin shall it be for you whether ye eat together or apart. But when ye enter houses, salute one another with a greeting from Allah, blessed and sweet.

    Thus Allah maketh clear His revelations for you, that haply ye may understand."

    I'm personally glad that verse was enshrined and preserved as eloquently as God intended.




    I confess myself unable to imitate this eloquence and profundity, in English or any other mode of communication.

    Only God himself, an immortal being of infinite power and intelligence, could speak thus.
  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     Reply #16 - September 20, 2016, 04:22 AM

    It says this confirms that the Quran has undergone little to no alteration. 


    Back to the Birmingham quran, how amusing that now some Muslims will say it has undergone "little" alteration. Muslims have always said it has undergone NO alteration, "not even by a single dot".

    Rashid Khalifa excised 2 verses of the quran because it didn't match his 19 theory. But that's because he used the hafs version. A sect within the code-19 quranists say the warsh version- used only in west Africa- better matches the 'mathematical miracle' of the number 19, but that the warsh isn't perfect for this either, meaning the real quran is still some other non-extant version.
  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     Reply #17 - September 20, 2016, 09:57 AM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NFxZyrxyxU
  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     Reply #18 - September 20, 2016, 06:00 PM

    TRANSLATION:
    "The problem is, as Dr Soroush said, it’s not the knowledge we acquire in youth that is carved in stone, but the beliefs we acquire during youth that become carved in stone. The belief we are taught since childhood where the child sees his mother and father kissing the Qur’an and put it on their forehead, saying this is from God, it is the speech of God. As he grows he hears this constant indoctrination. This indoctrination goes and mixes into his soul and spirit and body and so prevents any rational view of the Qur’an.

    In these critical lectures we want to uncover the facts, so we can be on a clear evidence/reality of our religion. So we have to shine a light on our beliefs is this Qur’an - as they have indoctrinated us - the word of God? And is it really not possible for a human being to come with the like of it?
    I’m going to read you some quotes from Nahj al-Balagha (by Imam Ali) and quotes from the Qur’an and you judge for yourselves. You are people with an average appreciation of eloquence. It will be clear that Nahj al-Balgha is either more eloquent than the Qur’an or at least on the same level. In which case, where is the Eloquent miraculousness? I insist that the scholars of Islam have made a huge error in the sense they say the miraculousness of the Qur’an is a miracle of literary eloquence and from there they assert it is the word of God.

    We shall prove that this (Qur’an) is not a miracle of eloquence first of all and secondly it is not from God. It is simply - in the view of those who truly understand - an “existential inspiration” (وحي وجودي - imho he means a general type of inspiration that comes through the world/existence - وجود around us) that is not from Muhammad (although it was Muhammad who had to articulate this inspiration into his own words as Ahmad Qabbanji explains in several other places.) But that doesn’t mean it is a miracle of eloquence. Let us read some quotes from Nahj al-Balagha…"
    (He goes on to compare a piece from Nahl al-Balagha with Sura AL-HUMAZA (104) Highlighting the beautiful meaning, choice of words and elegance of Nahj al-Balagha and the flaws and weaknesses in the above Sura. This needs to be listened to in Arabic to get the full impact of what he’s saying.)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhqULeeupoU
  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     Reply #19 - September 21, 2016, 01:23 AM

    The "linguistic miracle" is a double-edged sword... On one hand, the Quran is so miraculous it cannot be replicated. On the other hand, not only it insults the intelligence of ancient (and current) arab poets, it also insults the intelligence of its viewers by assuming that something like that cannot possibly be made by humans...

    Great speech by Qabbanji.
  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     Reply #20 - January 15, 2017, 02:07 PM

    well a friend from  CEMB sent me pm asking about my opinion on this Birmingham Quran Manuscript.,  the forum  has a folder on it.,  let us add some info for the readers..

    Investigation on the Ancient Quran Folios  of Birmingham. pdf .,  that is from  dr. Halim Sayoud



    Quote
    Halim is full Professor at the USTHB University, but considering himself a modest researcher, who wishes to establish multimedia links for sharing and receiving comments on his latest research results. Looking for the knowledge anywhere...

    Related research topics are listed below:

    Scientific Discoveries on the Holy Quran
    Artificial Intelligence
    Text and Data Mining
    Stylometry
    Biometrics
    Speaker Recognition
    Speech and Signal Processing
    Astronomy
    Ethics in  Scientific Research
    Origins of Creation
    Investigation of Religious Books
    And others...

    He is mastering three natural languages:
    Arabic (native)
    English (medium)
    French (professional)

    That is what he writes at his website...  http://sayoud.net/Apropos.html   incidentally USTHB University   does not mean it is in US of  A  .,  The University of Science and Technology – Houari Boumediene is a university   ((USTHB University)) located in the town of Bab-Ezzouar 15 kilometres from Algiers, Algeria..

    anyways I  will explore more of his works  and may be interact with him by e-mails...

    and my good wishes to  Mothra123 opening this folder
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Birmingham Quran Manuscript
     Reply #21 - January 15, 2017, 02:23 PM

    more literature on  Birmingham Quran manuscripts

    Birmingham Quran manuscript ...wikipedia.org

    BIRMINGHAM   UNIVERSITY   OLD   QUR’ANIC   FRAGMENTS  (FROM   THE   MINGANA   COLLECTION). PDF by   Jay   Smith of  answering-islam.org

    More on the discovery of ancient Quran fragments.pdf   from The Bart Ehrman who is a critic of all faiths

    My goodness gracious look at that allah revelation to  Ibn bilal
    Quran surah xxx verse xxx:  "no blame is there upon the blind nor any blame upon the lame nor any blame upon the sick nor on yourselves if ye eat from your houses, or the houses of your fathers, or the houses of your mothers, or the houses of your brothers, or the houses of your sisters, or the houses of your fathers' brothers, or the houses of your fathers' sisters, or the houses of your mothers' brothers, or the houses of your mothers' sisters, or (from that) whereof ye hold the keys, or (from the house) of a friend. No sin shall it be for you whether ye eat together or apart. But when ye enter houses, salute one another with a greeting from Allah, blessed and sweet.

    Thus Allah maketh clear His revelations for you, that haply ye may understand."
     

    that verse really takes the cake ... Cheesy Cheesy

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »