Predetermination in Islam

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- aftabmiah
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Predetermination in Islam
OP - October 23, 2016, 12:08 PM

Islam has a concept of predetermination/ says everything is predestined and Allah knows everything pertaining to the future Including ether or not you are going to hell or heaven so why in Islam its called a test is beyond me. In my understanding a test is where the outcome is not known till the actual test has been taken. So if Allah has created us knows already that we are destined for damnation we never really get a fair shot at the test do we? or either that Allah doesnt know or does Allah lie?. Furthermore if good and bad both come from Allah then good and bad all come from Allah then the good or bad that came in me came from Allah so why are humans judged on this ?? and potentially have to burn in the depths of hell for what allah made us do seems like a pretty cruel plan .

thoughts appreciate
- yeezevee
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Reply #1 - October 23, 2016, 12:17 PM

aftabmiah joins and asks so many questions...
Quote from: aftabmiah on October 23, 2016, 12:08 PM
Islam has a concept of predetermination/ says everything is predestined and Allah knows everything pertaining to the future Including ether or not you are going to hell or heaven so why in Islam its called a test is beyond me. In my understanding a test is where the outcome is not known till the actual test has been taken.

So if Allah has created us knows already that we are destined for damnation we never really get a fair shot at the test do we?

or either that Allah doesnt know or does Allah lie?.

Furthermore if good and bad both come from Allah then good and bad all come from Allah then the good or bad that came in me came from Allah so why are humans judged on this ??

and potentially have to burn in the depths of hell for what allah made us do seems like a pretty cruel plan .

thoughts appreciate

hello aftab., glad you joined this forum,and glad to read you., welcome tp CEMB., well best thing to solve the problems with such question is ., To consider these faith sayings and faith sayings of all afiths are NOT really from allah/god .. whatever the name ..

I like this tube.. .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- olweasel
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Reply #2 - October 23, 2016, 03:59 PM

George Carlin (PBUH) never gets old.

"Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
- Robert Louis Stevenson
- babooshka
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Predetermination in Islam
Reply #3 - October 24, 2016, 03:09 PM

I'd lov to invite George carlin, Muhammad ,Abraham,Moses and Jesus to a dinner party.
- bogart
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Reply #4 - October 24, 2016, 04:34 PM

Quote from: aftabmiah on October 23, 2016, 12:08 PM
Islam has a concept of predetermination/ says everything is predestined and Allah knows everything pertaining to the future Including ether or not you are going to hell or heaven so why in Islam its called a test is beyond me. In my understanding a test is where the outcome is not known till the actual test has been taken. So if Allah has created us knows already that we are destined for damnation we never really get a fair shot at the test do we? or either that Allah doesnt know or does Allah lie?. Furthermore if good and bad both come from Allah then good and bad all come from Allah then the good or bad that came in me came from Allah so why are humans judged on this ?? and potentially have to burn in the depths of hell for what allah made us do seems like a pretty cruel plan .

thoughts appreciate

You are conflating determination within time as the same outside of time. Time based determination can be simply reduced to the idea of preceding factors determine present and future outcomes. X and Y result in Z. Outside of time is merely a negation of time. There is no before or after, unknown then known. God knows everything as time is not a limitation like it is for us. The problem with the concept of God outside of time is grounded in how people argue regrading the creation of everything. If God is outside of time then is no before or after sequence for creation. The only conclusion for a sequence of events is to argue the there is another form of time, God-time, which renders omnipotence moot. Time is greater than God or the universe is as eternal as God, simply put. The test is secondary as it relies on the no-time concept as an axiom. To entertain the idea of this test is to accept an axiom you were not aware of. Namely there there can be a form of existence without time. Reject this unsupported view and the argument collapses anyways.
- fajfall
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Reply #5 - October 25, 2016, 11:52 PM

The Mutazilites didn't believe Allah knew the future. But they were Persians recently converted to Islam, so they were more free-thinking.

When I read surah 3:166-167, it says Allah doesn't know the future. Here's what it says:

166. That which befell you, on the day when the two armies met, was by permission of Allah; that He might know the true believers;

167. And that He might know the hypocrites, unto whom it was said: Come, fight in the way of Allah, or defend yourselves. They answered: If we knew aught of fighting we would follow you. On that day they were nearer disbelief than faith. They utter with their mouths a thing which is not in their hearts. Allah is Best Aware of what they hide.

Why would he need to test them to 'know' if they really believe if he knew the future?
- bogart
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Reply #6 - October 26, 2016, 11:41 AM

Quote from: fajfall on October 25, 2016, 11:52 PM
The Mutazilites didn't believe Allah knew the future. But they were Persians recently converted to Islam, so they were more free-thinking.

This isn't free-thinking, it is nonsense. If God is limited by time then time is greater than God. God is not the creator of all, merely a powerful entity like a human is to an ant. Time is part of the universe it is not merely tracking of numbers on a clock. Time can be distorted by speed and gravity.

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When I read surah 3:166-167, it says Allah doesn't know the future. Here's what it says:

166. That which befell you, on the day when the two armies met, was by permission of Allah; that He might know the true believers;

See above.

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167. And that He might know the hypocrites, unto whom it was said: Come, fight in the way of Allah, or defend yourselves. They answered: If we knew aught of fighting we would follow you. On that day they were nearer disbelief than faith. They utter with their mouths a thing which is not in their hearts. Allah is Best Aware of what they hide.

Why would he need to test them to 'know' if they really believe if he knew the future?

This shows that Allah is not all knowing. If Allah does not know something this renders the omniscience false. Again merely a powerful entity that is limited by reality not the creator of reality.
- yeezevee
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Reply #7 - October 26, 2016, 12:34 PM
Quote from: fajfall on October 25, 2016, 11:52 PM
The Mutazilites didn't believe Allah knew the future. But they were Persians recently converted to Islam, so they were more free-thinking.

fajfall says that & more and bogart says all that is "nonsense"
Quote from: bogart on October 26, 2016, 11:41 AM
This isn't free-thinking, it is nonsense.
If God is limited by time then time is greater than God. God is not the creator of all, merely a powerful entity like a human is to an ant. Time is part of the universe it is not merely tracking of numbers on a clock. Time can be distorted by speed and gravity.

See above.

This shows that Allah is not all knowing. If Allah does not know something this renders the omniscience false. Again merely a powerful entity that is limited by reality not the creator of reality
.
Oh common bogart give some slack to fajfall post as well as to Muʿtazilites and their Muʿtazila . What all fajfall saying is "Muʿtazilites Muʿtazila is MORE free thinking than what is there in the original Islam i.e. what is their in Quran + hadith Islamic theology.

I say "More free thinking is very relative word., and absolute freethinking or unquestionable free thinking is nonsense" .,

I tell you this., " IF ALL MUSLIMS FOLLOW THE CONCEPT OF MU'TAZILA" with in Islam, I will have no problem with Islam and silly Islamic rituals.

Now let me add few words on Mu'tazila

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....Mu'tazila (Arabic: المعتزلة‎‎ al-muʿtazilah) is a school of Islamic theology based on reason and rational thought that flourished in the cities of Basra and Baghdad, both in present-day Iraq, during the 8th–10th centuries. The adherents of the Mu`tazili school—known in English as Mu'tazilites [i]—are best known for their denying the status of the Qur'an as uncreated and co-eternal with God, asserting that if the Quran is God's word, logically God "must have preceded his own speech". [/font]

The philosophical speculation of the Mu'tazilites centered on the concepts of divine justice and divine unity. The school worked to resolve the theological "problem of evil", i.e. how to reconcile the justice of an all-powerful God with the reality of evil in the world. It believed that since God is Just and Wise, He cannot command what is contrary to reason or act with disregard for the welfare of His creatures.....[/i]......

now you tell me what is wrong with that with-in Islam?? It is true it becomes nonsense w.r. t your words

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"Time is part of the universe it is not merely tracking of numbers on a clock. Time can be distorted by speed and gravity. "

What you wrote above is a completely different ball game., When you talk about words like " Time-Clock-universe-Gravity.. theory of relativity..Quantum mechanics" etc..etc.. All concepts of all faiths become nonsense., But what fajfall said is not nonsense with-in Islam.

with best regards
yeezevee
Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- bogart
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Reply #8 - October 26, 2016, 06:22 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on October 26, 2016, 12:34 PM
fajfall says that & more and bogart says all that is "nonsense" Oh common bogart give some slack to fajfall post as well as to Muʿtazilites and their Muʿtazila . What all fajfall saying is "Muʿtazilites Muʿtazila is MORE free thinking than what is there in the original Islam i.e. what is their in Quran + hadith Islamic theology.

Free thinking is to be not tied to religious ideas and authority. These people were religious authorities discussing a religious topic. By definition this is not free thinking.

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I say "More free thinking is very relative word., and absolute freethinking or unquestionable free thinking is nonsense" .,

Abuse and/or change the use of the word all you want. It still does not make your use correct. It is the same tripe people use for "open minded" when discussing tin foil hat nonsense.

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I tell you this., " IF ALL MUSLIMS FOLLOW THE CONCEPT OF MU'TAZILA" with in Islam, I will have no problem with Islam and silly Islamic rituals.

Tolerance does not mean their idea(s) make sense.

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now you tell me what is wrong with that with-in Islam?? It is true it becomes nonsense w.r. t your words

Views which are still religious in origin, using religious authority and back by said authority

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What you wrote above is a completely different ball game., When you talk about words like " Time-Clock-universe-Gravity.. theory of relativity..Quantum mechanics" etc..etc.. All concepts of all faiths become nonsense., But what fajfall said is not nonsense with-in Islam.

I wrote about time and the inconsistent ideas people related to their religion. Islam is subjective in the sense that it is not an objective fact thus whether something is view within Islam not being nonsense is irrelevant and, again, subjective doubling down.
- yeezevee
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Reply #9 - October 26, 2016, 06:43 PM

Quote from: bogart on October 26, 2016, 06:22 PM
Free thinking is to be not tied to religious ideas and authority. These people were religious authorities discussing a religious topic. By definition this is not free thinking.

dear bogart., before i go down further on your post., let us define that "The free Thinking"

What is it , when did it start ? and how do we proceed to make a path/direction to free thinking ?

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- bogart
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Reply #10 - October 26, 2016, 07:06 PM

Freethinking is in opposition to methods of thought dominate in religious belief, tradition and authority. It was developed due to reliance people had on what religious authorities, tradition and beliefs said/claimed as true was true.
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Reply #11 - October 27, 2016, 09:40 AM

Only if there's no hell can the predestination-free will paradox be solved, because everyone ends in the same place. Which makes this life absurd in an Albert Camus kind of way
- yeezevee
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Reply #12 - October 27, 2016, 11:26 AM

Quote
Quote from: yeezevee asks on October 26, 2016, 06:43 PM
dear bogart., before i go down further on your post., let us define that "The free Thinking"

What is it , when did it start ? and how do we proceed to make a path/direction to free thinking ?

Quote from: bogart replies on October 26, 2016, 07:06 PM
Freethinking is in opposition to methods of thought dominate in religious belief, tradition and authority. It was developed due to reliance people had on what religious authorities, tradition and beliefs said/claimed as true was true.

well for some reason I didn't get proper response for the questions posed above.,may be I am not getting what you are saying dear bogart ., Let me repose them along with another question..

1). What is free thinking? and how that relates to the actions of freethinkers & their followers in real life?

2). When did this concept of free thinking started? I mean ~ what year /era?

3). How do we start or proceed to make paths or direction to free thinking ?

and the fourth question to you is,

4). Do these freethinkers have to be atheists and absolute atheists? or can any followers of any faiths /religions could also be free thinkers? and and can you give some examples of free thinkers since the time of Aristotle

let us get some answers on those questions before we talk about "THE CONCEPT OF MU'TAZILA" with-in Islam...

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- bogart
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Reply #13 - October 30, 2016, 08:50 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on October 27, 2016, 11:26 AM

well for some reason I didn't get proper response for the questions posed above.,may be I am not getting what you are saying dear bogart ., Let me repose them along with another question..

Your inability to figure out how my response aligns to your question is not my problem.

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1). What is free thinking? and how that relates to the actions of freethinkers & their followers in real life?

When did people stop using scripture and tradition as a method for development and education? Figure it out

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2). When did this concept of free thinking started? I mean ~ what year /era?

When did the above response become mainstream methodology? Figure it out

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3). How do we start or proceed to make paths or direction to free thinking ?[/i]

When you drop the methods of answer 1.

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4). Do these freethinkers have to be atheists and absolute atheists? or can any followers of any faiths /religions could also be free thinkers?

Any individual that follows scripture and traditions of a religion can not by definition be an absolute free thinker. Deists can be as they are not theists thus are not required to follow said methods of thought. Theists can exercise a partial adoption of free thinking as a method and do so in academia all the time. However this is situational only as academia forces one to do so. However as a method of thought this creates conflicts and contradiction in their larger worldview which follows a different method of thought. Agnostics that do not follow a tradition, sorry Hassan, can be as well.

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and and can you give some examples of free thinkers since the time of Aristotle

Hume, Einstein, Hawkings, Voltaire

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let us get some answers on those questions before we talk about "THE CONCEPT OF MU'TAZILA" with-in Islam...

Why when their view is not freethinking nor coherent?
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Reply #14 - October 30, 2016, 09:02 PM

Quote from: fajfall on October 27, 2016, 09:40 AM
Only if there's no hell can the predestination-free will paradox be solved, because everyone ends in the same place.

This does not solve the paradox it only provides a comforting result and bypasses the issue.
- yeezevee
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Reply #15 - October 31, 2016, 12:11 PM

Quote from: bogart on October 30, 2016, 08:50 PM
Your inability to figure out how my response aligns to your question is not my problem.

that is a bomb

thank you bogart., I know I have so many problems and so many inabilities/ disabilities but I will still ask questions in things that i don't understand and on things I question .. anyways we will continue on this subject

but you must realize you are comparing Muslim folks that developed the concept of MU'TAZILA in 8th century ((which is fantastic at that time)) with folks from 18/19/20th century .. there is some 10ccentires of tme difference ., lot of water went down the rivers of England, France and Middle East during that time

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- bogart
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Reply #16 - October 31, 2016, 04:56 PM

I was pointing out that you are unable nor are interested in figuring out how my answer applies to all your questions.

It is a fair comparison as it is a method of thought that is applicable for anything that wishes to use it. However my point about the Mu'tazila is that their view is incoherent now. Just because it is something people find more comfort in doesn't make it coherent.

Yes it was a bomb as I have little interest in teaching people basic reading comprehension, application of this combined with analysis techniques they should already be capable of using.
- yeezevee
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Reply #17 - November 02, 2016, 12:46 PM

that is a good response bogart ., internet forum bombs are ok., and i want to be far away from real bombs., I also have plenty patience and thick skin to take as many internet bombs as I can read and respond., Life experiences taught me to be patient
Quote from: bogart on October 31, 2016, 04:56 PM
...Yes it was a bomb as I have little interest in teaching people basic reading comprehension, application of this combined with analysis techniques ~~they should already be capable of using.~~

well basic reading of words in your post is different from analyzing your post with comprehensive rational and logical skills and you seem to assume that all readers are as good as you are w.r.t. understanding complex subjects like "Freethinking and free will".,
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I was pointing out that you are unable ~~nor are interested in figuring out~~ how my answer applies to all your questions.

well I may be unable and my not have high level comprehensive skills, but but I am interested reading and understanding of the thoughts of intelligent well educated folks on this free thinking and free will subjects .

And i am of the opinion. if majority of human folks on earth understand those two words and apply that free thinking and free will in their day to day life ., that will solve lot of problem of future generations.
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~~It is a fair comparison~~ as it is a method of thought that is applicable for anything that wishes to use it. ...

No...NO...NOoooo that is not fair comparison.,

I mean there is 1000 years of time difference differences between the people( THE MU'TAZILITES) who said "QURAN IS NOT WORD OF GOD" and 18/19/20th century folks like you named., such as David Hume, Einstein, Hawkings, Voltaire

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However my point about the Mu'tazila is that their view is incoherent now. ., Just because it is something people find more comfort in doesn't make it coherent.

Off course the concept of Mu'tazila is NOT coherent now., And I never said they are coherent now., In fact those guys of 8th century who happened to born in Islamic community themselves agree that they were NOT absolutely correct and 100% coherent ., But w..r,t the times they were in., their views were lot more coherent than any scientist and faith heads of that time and even in every faith heads of the present time..

anyway your answer to this question 4 of mine is interesting
Quote
Quote from: yeezevee on October 27, 2016, 11:26 AM

4). Do these freethinkers have to be atheists and absolute atheists? or can any followers of any faiths /religions could also be free thinkers? and and can you give some examples of free thinkers since the time of Aristotle

Quote from: bogart on October 30, 2016, 08:50 PM

Any individual that follows scripture and traditions of a religion can not by definition be an absolute free thinker. Deists can be as they are not theists thus are not required to follow said methods of thought. Theists can exercise a partial adoption of free thinking as a method and do so in academia all the time. However this is situational only as academia forces one to do so. However as a method of thought this creates conflicts and contradiction in their larger worldview which follows a different method of thought. Agnostics that do not follow a tradition, sorry Hassan, can be as well.

Hume, Einstein, Hawkings, Voltaire

There I would like to say., Mu'tazilites never followed Quran and did not consider Quran is a word of some allah god., here is what they tried to argue and explore on the subject f Quran
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Mu`tazilites believed that good and evil were not determined by revealed scripture or interpretation of scripture, but rational categories that could be "established through unaided reason;[5][8][9][10] because knowledge was derived from reason, reason was the "final arbiter" in distinguishing right from wrong.[11] The Mu`tazili school of Kalam posited that the injunctions of God are accessible to rational thought and inquiry, and that it is reason, not "sacred precedent", that is an effective means of determining what is just, and obligatory in religion.[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%CA%BFtazila

So bogart just curious about your thoughts ., with these words,

Any individual that follows scripture and traditions of a religion can not by definition be an absolute free thinker. ..... bogart

1). did you mean to say that Absolute free thinkers have to be absolute Atheists? .

And as you pointed out that "Agnostics that do not follow a tradition"., hence

2). can we also consider Agnostics as some sort of free thinkers explorers of unknown subjects ??

with best regards
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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