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 Topic: Question to muslims

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  • Question to muslims
     Reply #30 - March 19, 2017, 09:53 PM
    Quote from: three on March 19, 2017, 08:56 PM
    Unifier, I understand your view. But the canonical text is at odds with Islamic practice in most of the world until quite recently.
    I also tried to label and understand Islam from the Quran and Sunnah, but that is not enough. What most Muslims find helpful in their daily lives are not verses on raping slaves, but verses offering general advice on how to live.
    Is Islam it's origins, it's history, or it's Ummah?
    They are not all the same thing. ISIS is trying to reconcile origins by citing history and creating an Ummah based on the strictest interpretations. Most Muslims think this is wrong and want not a damn thing to do with it.
    Who is right?
    The majority of Muslims, or ISIS? Scholars who advocate harm, or the Muslim majority who refuse to harm? Which is Islam?
    If Islam were as harsh as you say, most Muslims would have flocked to Syria instead of denouncing or ignoring ISIS.
    Most Muslims had never heard of taqqiya until a few years ago, and I had never heard of it until after I left.
    What most Muslims understand of Islamic practice is not this Saudi shit shoved down our throats the past few decades. It used to be something else entirely, more varied and benign.


    That's good to read Three.  Its so hard to know for an 'outsider' like me what the percentages of tolerant peaceful vs violent aggressive Muslims really is.   I fully understand there are very kind and gentle souls who reside inside Muslims.  Just watched the Sam Harris / Maajid Nawaz talk about their jointly written book in front of a Harvard audience.  A couple of the questioners were Muslim students and they were very sincere and thoughtful people.  One spoke about his hope that some Western cultural practices he had experienced while at Harvard could one day be the standard practice in his own country.

    I also have some sympathy for the Islamic viewpoint on Jesus and the trinity.   In late antiquity after the Council of Chalcedon in Constantinople - the Christological doctrines of Western Christianity started to take shape.   But they were bitterly opposed in Eastern centers of Christianity like Antioch and Damascus where Nestorian and Monophysite Christian ideas were followed.   I hear echoes of those debates in the comments of present day Muslim apologists and am hoping to develop these hunches into something more substantial.

    Holland's book is very good on conveying the religious melting pot that was Mesopotamia from 500 BCE to 600 ACE.  Large Jewish population among the Christian majority in what is today Syria, Iraq and Iran. 

    What is your take on the 'refugees' in Germany, Sweden and elsewhere who are causing so many problems and arousing deep resentment among the host populations?
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #31 - March 19, 2017, 10:45 PM
    Unifier I'm glad three's cleared up the taqqiya bit. My whole family had never heard of it. There's a lot of propaganda against ordinary muslims on the net. the hate is unbelievable.

    If anyone has used taqqiya, then its bush and blair in my opinion when they went into Iraq and then Afghanistan. I'm sure I read somewhere that both believed they were doing Gods work. Rumsfeld would even send out memos with biblical scripture on it.

    I think the west is itching for a war.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #32 - March 20, 2017, 01:46 AM
    Quote from: Unifier on March 19, 2017, 09:53 PM
    That's good to read Three.  Its so hard to know for an 'outsider' like me what the percentages of tolerant peaceful vs violent aggressive Muslims really is.   I fully understand there are very kind and gentle souls who reside inside Muslims.  Just watched the Sam Harris / Maajid Nawaz talk about their jointly written book in front of a Harvard audience.  A couple of the questioners were Muslim students and they were very sincere and thoughtful people.  One spoke about his hope that some Western cultural practices he had experienced while at Harvard could one day be the standard practice in his own country.

    I also have some sympathy for the Islamic viewpoint on Jesus and the trinity.   In late antiquity after the Council of Chalcedon in Constantinople - the Christological doctrines of Western Christianity started to take shape.   But they were bitterly opposed in Eastern centers of Christianity like Antioch and Damascus where Nestorian and Monophysite Christian ideas were followed.   I hear echoes of those debates in the comments of present day Muslim apologists and am hoping to develop these hunches into something more substantial.

    Holland's book is very good on conveying the religious melting pot that was Mesopotamia from 500 BCE to 600 ACE.  Large Jewish population among the Christian majority in what is today Syria, Iraq and Iran. 

    What is your take on the 'refugees' in Germany, Sweden and elsewhere who are causing so many problems and arousing deep resentment among the host populations?


    I feel refugees ought to be helped, especially if they come from countries that have suffered war recently. However, I am not sympathetic towards any person who does not respect the laws of the country they are in. Unfortunately in the US we often throw our refugees down in a city center and then leave them to fend for themselves.I have no idea if Europa does the same.  If we had a settlement program that introduced refugees to basics like the local customs, laws, and how to be a good citizen it would be much better. I remember New Zealand had a program like that a few decades ago and it was quite successful. I also feel a language class requirement would make things easier. But we don't want to invest, it seems.
    There is not much point in demanding assimilation if we don't explain how or help in some way with it.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #33 - March 20, 2017, 07:55 AM
    hello

    from my humble point of view

      whenever you have a scared or holy (ideology ) where people follow the prophet of this ideology and consider him the perfect human who don't do mistakes and should be considered and copied as a role model  ( then this role model should be moral and ethical enough other ways we might end up with 2 billion people who are confused by moral common sense and there perfect human being )

    now also when the door for interpretation is open , and historical example of the perfect human being doing similar acts , i can totally understand why would ISIS consider them self as true Muslims , and see other Muslims as confused lost Muslims who are victims of there (personal moral common sense and lack of Islamic history understanding )

    ..........................

    now to understand other Muslims who condemn ISIS  i will give you example of the people who i know best

    (ME two years ago before i renounced Islam , my family , most of my surrounding ) every one i know find ISIS completely insane and un Islamic  even i was astonished on HOW WOULD THEY EVEN CLAM THEY ARE MUSLIMS Huh??

    until i went deeper into Islam and deeper into Mohamed history , you see the Islam i grew up with what they teach us in schools in the capital cities is selected clean , censored , beautiful verses , when ever we question any thing we either get the reply of god work in mysterious way or simply your human understanding is limited and we shouldn't question Allah or his profit if i asked about slavery or women treatment in Islam i get sugar  coated answers to numb my anger and stop my questioning .

    so i understood that i cant be a muslim after realizing that i cant approve most of the things that i later on knew about the prophet history which no one told me about while being muslim

    i used to watch david wood videos on youtube and hear about stuff i never knew before and then as native arabic speaker just go to muslim web site and see how they justify it just to make sure it was true .

    so who is true muslim ? I guess those who know islam better , not the ignorant un educated poor who cant read or write and being used for other porpuses , nor the civilized middle class who are spoon fed islam to make it look what it isn?t
    You are educated when you have the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or self-confidence.
     Robert Frost

    ?Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.?

    ― Andr? Gide
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #34 - March 22, 2017, 02:58 PM
    I struggle with this idea of who is a muslim and who is not a muslim.

    Surely the fact that most muslims don't follow the bad verses indicates that islam is being reformed. regardless of whether they are aware of the 'true' origins of their religion. Most Christians aren't aware of what's in their bible yet they are not labelled 'not Christian'
     
    Why should a Muslim who chooses to ignore the bad verses be labelled as 'not Muslim'?



  • Question to muslims
     Reply #35 - March 22, 2017, 04:32 PM
    Quote from: awakened on March 20, 2017, 07:55 AM
    i used to watch david wood videos on youtube and hear about stuff i never knew before and then as native arabic speaker just go to muslim web site and see how they justify it just to make sure it was true .



    I wish david wood would apply the same critical thinking to his own religion too.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #36 - March 23, 2017, 01:50 AM
    Quote from: babooshka on March 22, 2017, 02:58 PM
    I struggle with this idea of who is a muslim and who is not a muslim.

    Surely the fact that most muslims don't follow the bad verses indicates that islam is being reformed. regardless of whether they are aware of the 'true' origins of their religion. Most Christians aren't aware of what's in their bible yet they are not labelled 'not Christian'
     
    Why should a Muslim who chooses to ignore the bad verses be labelled as 'not Muslim'?






    I talk about that all the time. What is Islam? A history? Is it the verses? The living tradition? I decided it would be nothing without it's followers. Islam is what is being practiced. Hassan wants Muslims to accept the Quran as useful or helpful, but not Divine. If his view catches on it would give reformation and progressive movements a real torch.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #37 - March 23, 2017, 10:58 AM
    What about the parts of the Koran that instruct intolerance and violence?
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #38 - March 23, 2017, 02:41 PM
    Quote from: three on March 23, 2017, 01:50 AM
    I talk about that all the time. What is Islam? A history? Is it the verses? The living tradition? I decided it would be nothing without it's followers. Islam is what is being practiced. Hassan wants Muslims to accept the Quran as useful or helpful, but not Divine. If his view catches on it would give reformation and progressive movements a real torch.


    I do like Hasan's way of thinking. We need more thinkers like him. I wish he would make more videos.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #39 - March 23, 2017, 02:42 PM
    Quote from: Unifier on March 23, 2017, 10:58 AM
    What about the parts of the Koran that instruct intolerance and violence?


    what about them?
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #40 - March 23, 2017, 03:25 PM
    I'm challenging the assumption that the Koran can be useful to living a good life (without it being regarded as divine) if it contains instructions to be violent.

    The text of Koran along with Hadiths unchanged are surely part of the problem, not the solution.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #41 - March 23, 2017, 03:35 PM
    I think we need new hadiths. If they can be written hundreds of years after the prophets death. they surely can be revised now.

  • Question to muslims
     Reply #42 - March 23, 2017, 04:13 PM
    You sound far more reasonable than the devout members of the faith!     Afro
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #43 - March 24, 2017, 12:26 AM
    I think its time for you to sod off now.

  • Question to muslims
     Reply #44 - March 24, 2017, 01:03 AM
    Quote from: Unifier on March 23, 2017, 03:25 PM
    I'm challenging the assumption that the Koran can be useful to living a good life (without it being regarded as divine) if it contains instructions to be violent.

    The text of Koran along with Hadiths unchanged are surely part of the problem, not the solution.


    I don't see why we have to remove the entire canon. Does not the Bible have plenty of horrid stuff in it that is generally ignored completely? Yes, yes it does.
    So If we can use Quran to live a good life the way Jews and Christians do with the Old Testament, why not? The divinity is far more of a problem than the actual text, as we can see from other Abrahamic examples. And yes, I am fully aware that I am completely disregarding Jewish and Christian terrorism.
    Hassan is really onto something better than your solution. Is it really practical to convince millions of people to throw out their text? No. It is easier to ask them to read it differently.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #45 - March 24, 2017, 01:04 AM
    Quote from: Unifier on March 23, 2017, 04:13 PM
    You sound far more reasonable than the devout members of the faith!     Afro


    Don't be an asshole. Devout members are quite reasonable. They have a different belief system, and that is all.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #46 - March 24, 2017, 01:14 AM
    Surely the actions or in-actions of Muslims/Christians or any other religion follow a simple correlation, example for Islam but it applies across the board.

    Easy:  Not eating Pork:  Almost total compliance

    Moderate: Attending Mosque: 50/50 (at a guess)

    Difficult: Killing people: Very few 
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #47 - March 24, 2017, 07:37 AM
    Quote from: babooshka on March 22, 2017, 04:32 PM
    I wish david wood would apply the same critical thinking to his own religion too.


    i know right  , he is soooo cute and funny remind me of kinder garden kids (my toy is better than yours ) , any way he did help a bit


    You are educated when you have the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or self-confidence.
     Robert Frost

    ?Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.?

    ― Andr? Gide
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #48 - March 24, 2017, 07:43 AM
    Quote from: babooshka on March 23, 2017, 03:35 PM
    I think we need new hadiths. If they can be written hundreds of years after the prophets death. they surely can be revised now.


    funny story :
    i always had love for poetry , so when i was like 5 or 6 i discovered that i am very good at arabic literature compared to kids my age so as i was reading throw hadith book innocently i went to my aunt and said when i grew up i wont to be hadith writer  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy they always made fun of that , but again at that age i thought you can go to university and graduate as princess
    You are educated when you have the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or self-confidence.
     Robert Frost

    ?Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.?

    ― Andr? Gide
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #49 - March 24, 2017, 06:42 PM
    Quote from: zeca on March 19, 2017, 04:15 PM
    Muhammad's life as understood by Sunni Muslims a couple of centuries later can only have had a distant relationship with historical reality.

    What is the historical reality ?

    What are your arguments for saying that Salaf is not the islam of Muhammad ?
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #50 - March 24, 2017, 06:47 PM
    Quote from: Unifier on March 19, 2017, 05:22 PM
    Let me say up front, as will be clear from my post, that I have never been and never will be a Muslim.  I am a Westerner who grew up in the Anglican tradition in the UK and then branched out from there in the US.  I am Christian, but extremely unorthodox and disagree with some Christian theology and agree with some Muslim interpretations (as far as I can observe and understand them).

    I have been trying to understand Islam off an on for around 10 years.  I have visited Jordan on a peace mission to deliver aid packages to Iraqi refugees and I have read several of the available histories of Islam.  The histories of Tom Holland, Patricia Crone, Robert Hoyland and Ohlig and Puin (Secret History of Islam).  I am conscious that it is one thing to criticize your own home, but when a stranger like me makes the same points it will rightfully be resented.   All that said ... here goes.

    Islam is the only major religion I know of that:

    1. Had a warlord polygamist prophet as its founder.
    2. Has much political and legal content that discriminates against non believers and women.
    3. Began spreading thru military conquest from its very beginnings (Chrisitanity is also guilty .. but centuries after its founding when it became the official religion of Rome).  
    4. Is openly hegemonistic and aggressive in spreading itself without interest or respect for the cultures hosting new muslim immigrant communities.  In fact Islam is highly defensive and critical and uses 'Taqiya' tactics to mask its true nature and goals from Western eyes.
    5. So much 'scriptural content' devoted to conquest and aggression.

    So at this point, like many Westerners in Europe and America I view Islam as most similar to a religious form of Fascism.  Historians of German Fascism have opined that if only Western leaders had read 'Mein Kampf' they would have clearly understood what Hitler and the Nazis were going to do. German Fascism believed in the racial superiority of the German Volk.  Islam believes in the superiority of it's doctrines and its community.   Similarly we can read the Quran and the Hadith and see exactly what fate awaits us non-muslims if we let it go too far.   As a Fascist force physically and culturally threatening to the host countries in the West I believe it must be fought, very hard, intellectually, spiritually, criminally and militarily when necessary.  It is a matter of the cultural survival of the West as I know it and love it.   Trump, Wilders and other right wing politicians that have emerged recently are a direct result of perceptions like those I cite above.  They are just the first wave.   If they cannot stem the tide and change the course we are on, then civil political institutions will be perceived by too many Europeans and Americans as unable to defend us, and harsher leaders will take over.

    My question would be: can Islam in the West reform and become peaceful before politics gets too ugly - leading to a 'soft landing' as Douglas Murray sometimes describes it, or will there be a 'hard landing' - meaning much violence.   I personally doubt this doctrine contrived in late antiquity by leadership of the the militarily victorious Arab tribes of Mesopotamia can be reformed.  The precedents suggest 'hard landing'.   Fascism and Communism weren't reformed - they were fought until they died under the weight of their own evil.  

    Apologies for such a depressing post.


    It's an Objective and realistic post
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #51 - March 24, 2017, 07:03 PM
    Quote from: three on March 19, 2017, 08:56 PM

    They are not all the same thing. ISIS is trying to reconcile origins by citing history and creating an Ummah based on the strictest interpretations. Most Muslims think this is wrong and want not a damn thing to do with it.
    Who is right?
    The majority of Muslims, or ISIS? Scholars who advocate harm, or the Muslim majority who refuse to harm? Which is Islam?
    If Islam were as harsh as you say, most Muslims would have flocked to Syria instead of denouncing or ignoring ISIS.
    Most Muslims had never heard of taqqiya until a few years ago, and I had never heard of it until after I left.

    Me too I had never heard of taqqiya until a few years ago and I did not know the verses 9.29 and 4.34 And yet I was raised in a very practicing family, I went to the mosque at the age of 14
    Four years ago, I was like 99% of Muslims, I knew Islam only what people or my grandmother said. Since I studied the texts and I understood that 99% of the Muslims lie without knowing the texts
    Read the Sira of Ibn Ishaq or other biography of Muhammad, they are on the Internet, You will know the true islam
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #52 - March 24, 2017, 07:20 PM
    Quote from: three on March 19, 2017, 09:02 PM
    If Quran is not simple to understand then you would not be Muslim. Muslims know Quran says it is easy to understand, quite clear, and they interpret it as such. Most Muslims are not ignoring the verses abrogated by order given, but reading Quran as a whole message, Divine. If the Makkah verses are useless, why are they in Quran at all?
    So either you deny part of Quran (apostate) or you accept Quran as is (Muslim). Only one of those choices will include you in the Ummah.
    So most Muslims are not throwing out half the text as you claim. ISIS might be, but we already know how most Muslims feel about how they interpret canon.

    I don't need to prove it. The UK police already did that in the most well known cases.

    There is no relationship between understanding the Quran and being or not being Muslim
    Muslims did not say that the Qur'an is easy to understand
    If the Koran was easy to understand there would not be many exegetes

    Very good question : If the Makkah verses are useless, why are they in Quran at all? It is to say to those who do not read Arabic: the Qur'an contains only tolerant verses
    Most Muslims do not know the violent and Misogynists verses

    I take note that you do not show us evidence

  • Question to muslims
     Reply #53 - March 24, 2017, 07:26 PM
    Quote from: Unifier on March 19, 2017, 09:53 PM
      I fully understand there are very kind and gentle souls who reside inside Muslims.

    The problem is Islam not the Muslims
    I can not hate my mother and sisters who are practicing
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #54 - March 24, 2017, 07:43 PM
    Quote from: babooshka on March 19, 2017, 10:45 PM
    Unifier I'm glad three's cleared up the taqqiya bit. My whole family had never heard of it. There's a lot of propaganda against ordinary muslims on the net. the hate is unbelievable.

    If anyone has used taqqiya, then its bush and blair in my opinion when they went into Iraq and then Afghanistan. I'm sure I read somewhere that both believed they were doing Gods work. Rumsfeld would even send out memos with biblical scripture on it.

    I think the west is itching for a war.

    Taqiya is in Quran : 3:28. Believers are not to take disbelievers for friends instead of believers. Whoever does that has nothing to do with God, unless it is to protect your own selves against them.
    and also in sunna
    Muhammad has used taqqiya, all his life, more than Bush and Blair
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #55 - March 24, 2017, 07:52 PM
    Quote from: babooshka on March 22, 2017, 02:58 PM

    Why should a Muslim who chooses to ignore the bad verses be labelled as 'not Muslim'?


    The question is: What is the Islam of Muhammed?
    ISIS is it in conformity with the Islam of Muhammad t?
    Rare or non-existent are Muslims who choose to ignore bad verses, they deny them
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #56 - March 24, 2017, 07:57 PM
    Quote from: three on March 24, 2017, 01:03 AM
    So If we can use Quran to live a good life the way Jews and Christians do with the Old Testament, why not?

    Jews and Christians Reformed
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #57 - March 24, 2017, 08:04 PM
    error
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #58 - March 24, 2017, 10:56 PM
    Quote from: paniss492 on March 24, 2017, 07:57 PM
    Jews and Christians Reformed


    so have muslims. and they will continue to reform given half the chance and despite whatever your agenda is.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #59 - March 24, 2017, 11:10 PM
    Quote from: paniss492 on March 24, 2017, 07:52 PM
    The question is: What is the Islam of Muhammed?
    ISIS is it in conformity with the Islam of Muhammad t?
    Rare or non-existent are Muslims who choose to ignore bad verses, they deny them




    so your mum and sisters fit into which group? rare or non existent?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BDnWMwkf6g

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