Muslim arguments

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OP - June 18, 2017, 02:16 AM

The way muslims try to explain why god exists is almost identical to these old failed arguments of creationists in the early 80s. They just ripped it off.
If it failed back then, what makes them even think it will succeed today?
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Reply #1 - June 18, 2017, 11:27 AM

As a non (never was) Muslim there is one thing that strikes me about Muslim (perhaps Arab) culture. The phrase 'InShallah' seems to occur frequently whenever desired outcomes are being talked about. 'God Willing' is used it would seem to push responsibility onto God, when human beings should be getting something done. It strikes me as a great Get Out of Jail Free card used to avoid doing anything constructive and inducing apathy and fatalism.

Could Islam be mistaken about the nature and role of God and man and the relationship between them? It is starkly different to the Christian understanding of personal responsibility to use our God given powers and faculties to 'do the Lord's work'.

I know this is a big generalization ... but the backwardness of the N African, Middle Eastern and Central Asian Muslim world in literacy, government, industry, science etc must be down to something cultural like this.
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Reply #2 - June 18, 2017, 12:10 PM

Quote from: Lemoncake on June 18, 2017, 02:16 AM
The way ~~muslims~~ try to explain...

Muslim folks pray /eat/fast /some religious rituals as any other faith folks., Such Muslims have ripped-off nothing dear Lemoncake ..so let me change a bit of what you said
Quote
Lemoncake: ... The way Islamic intellectuals /internet Islam preachers try to explain why god exists is almost identical to these old failed arguments of creationists in the early 80s... They just ripped it off. If it failed back then, what makes them even think it will succeed today?

Not only that Islamic story tellers ripped off even the Islamic scriptures specially Quran, but rest of the good stuff in Islam such as "golden age of islamic achievements" is also ripped off

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Reply #3 - June 18, 2017, 02:17 PM

I'm quite tired of the idea, that the situation in Africa and/or Middle East being the cause of "cultural" and/or genetic reasons, being tossed out as a "innocent question". As if 500 years of colonization and geo-politics never happened. It's the same type of ignorance and willingness to re-write history, for their own convinience, that makes people like to pretend that slavery in the US ended "hundreds of years ago", and that everything from that point after was just parades and flowers.

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Reply #4 - June 18, 2017, 02:38 PM

Quote from: Unifier on June 18, 2017, 11:27 AM
As a non (never was) Muslim there is one thing that strikes me about Muslim (perhaps Arab) culture. The phrase 'InShallah' seems to occur frequently whenever desired outcomes are being talked about. 'God Willing' is used it would seem to push responsibility onto God, when human beings should be getting something done. It strikes me as a great Get Out of Jail Free card used to avoid doing anything constructive and inducing apathy and fatalism.

Could Islam be mistaken about the nature and role of God and man and the relationship between them? It is starkly different to the Christian understanding of personal responsibility to use our God given powers and faculties to 'do the Lord's work'.

I know this is a big generalization ... but the backwardness of the N African, Middle Eastern and Central Asian Muslim world in literacy, government, industry, science etc must be down to something cultural like this.

Condescending, much? Does not that very attitude strike you as backward? Cornflower makes the most valid point on the issue of geography/culture. How far can people get when they are being bled dry on the one hand and fed with poison on the other?

The Muslim understanding of free will and predetermination is to "tie your camel first". It is the same in that respect to your statement above of the Christian attitude. One glaring difference is that Muslims do not usually claim to be receiving messages from their God as "Inspired" or "Called" Christians do.

I see the concept of "hope" to be as damaging as anything else, and it is pervasive in our culture and many others, and has little to do with religion. Even I still indulge in hope, despite my belief that it is an empty and useless action. Prayer is the same.

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Reply #5 - June 18, 2017, 03:28 PM

Quote from: Unifier on June 18, 2017, 11:27 AM
As a non (never was) Muslim there is one thing that strikes me about Muslim (perhaps Arab) culture. The phrase 'InShallah' seems to occur frequently whenever desired outcomes are being talked about. 'God Willing' is used it would seem to push responsibility onto God, when human beings should be getting something done. It strikes me as a great Get Out of Jail Free card used to avoid doing anything constructive and inducing apathy and fatalism.

good.. good...good words for FAITH HEADS dear unifier

Quote
Could Islam be mistaken about the nature and role of God and man and the relationship between them? It is starkly different to the Christian understanding of personal responsibility to use our God given powers and faculties to 'do the Lord's work'.

oh I see.... well Christian god may be different from Muslim god or other gods of other faith heads .. Western Christian god is a powerful god

Quote
I know this is a big generalization ... but the backwardness of the N African, Middle Eastern and Central Asian Muslim world in literacy, government, industry, science etc must be down to something cultural like this.

Nah .. that is NOT generalization it is just a suggestion from you to OTHER FAITH HEADS

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Reply #6 - June 18, 2017, 03:35 PM

Oh finally someone remembered Central Asians, sorry I can’t resist.

Quote from: Unifier on June 18, 2017, 11:27 AM
The phrase 'InShallah' seems to occur frequently whenever desired outcomes are being talked about. 'God Willing' is used it would seem to push responsibility onto God, when human beings should be getting something done.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with eastern cultures in general and especially not their euphemism. Iranian taxi drivers and shop assistants will initially decline payment until further insistence. Do they mean what they say? Hell no!

Quote
It strikes me as a great Get Out of Jail Free card used to avoid doing anything constructive and inducing apathy and fatalism.

You cannot have apathy and fatalism in Islam. (You can actually find more fatalism in Ecclesiastes.)Islam gives you long lists of things to do from dawn to dust, from birth to death. And Islam clearly list Jihad as one of the five pillars. And I assure you that is considered a very constructive (or destructive) thing. And also Islam is against monasticism. As for Get Out of Jail Free card, I can think of none better than the tradition of absolution.

Quote
It is starkly different to the Christian understanding of personal responsibility to use our God given powers and faculties to 'do the Lord's work'.

Indeed Christian crusaders and missionaries across five continents have been diligently doing the Lord’s work just as well. But did you just list “literacy, government, industry, science”as Lord’s work? Does anyone need any more examples or Christianity getting in the way of these aspects of human developments?

Don’t forget Christianity is the first major religion of Gnosticism, and all the colorful apocalyptic beliefs. Don’t forget how ardently it encourage you to forsake all that is in this life for the next. "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple ... So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:26-27, 33)

Quote
I know this is a big generalization ... but the backwardness of the N African, Middle Eastern and Central Asian Muslim world in literacy, government, industry, science etc must be down to something cultural like this.

Actually Central Asian and other ex-USSR countries are among those with highest literacy rate in the world. Please tell me therefore you believe in the superiority of communism.
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Reply #7 - June 18, 2017, 04:22 PM

Quote from: Unifier on June 18, 2017, 11:27 AM
As a non (never was) Muslim there is one thing that strikes me about Muslim (perhaps Arab) culture. The phrase 'InShallah' seems to occur frequently whenever desired outcomes are being talked about. 'God Willing' is used it would seem to push responsibility onto God, when human beings should be getting something done. It strikes me as a great Get Out of Jail Free card used to avoid doing anything constructive and inducing apathy and fatalism.

Could Islam be mistaken about the nature and role of God and man and the relationship between them? It is starkly different to the Christian understanding of personal responsibility to use our God given powers and faculties to 'do the Lord's work'.

I know this is a big generalization ... but the backwardness of the N African, Middle Eastern and Central Asian Muslim world in literacy, government, industry, science etc must be down to something cultural like this.

I think that you will find that many Christian countries are equally backwards to the most backwards countries in those regions. It's strange that you would boil it down to something that simple, while speaking about cultures that you are unfamiliar with.

I always used to say "insha'Allah" and it still slips out from time to time out of habit. All my life I have still studied for my exams and carried out plans for the things that I wanted. There was this idea that I needed to put the effort in, but at the end of the day it was Allah who would decide my fate. Effort was needed so that I could at least say that I tried my best.

There is a saying in Islam that you should "trust in Allah but still ties your camel". The concept is known as tawakkul (as opposed to tawaakul, which is relying only on your trust in God and not putting in the required effort), and tying your camel is to stop it from running away, even though you trust Allah not to make you lose it. That can be seen as promoting personal responsibility.

Fair criticism of Islam that is properly thought through is welcome. This kind of intellectual laziness will be called out and criticised.
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Reply #8 - June 18, 2017, 05:09 PM

Quote from: PebbleWalkway on June 18, 2017, 03:35 PM
And Islam clearly list Jihad as one of the five pillars.

Though I agree with the points you and other posters have made in response to Unifier, I thought the five pillars were salat, sawm, zakat, Hajj and shahadah?
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Reply #9 - June 18, 2017, 05:31 PM

Quote from: Cornflower on June 18, 2017, 02:17 PM
I'm quite tired of the idea, that the situation in Africa and/or Middle East being the cause of "cultural" and/or genetic reasons, being tossed out as a "innocent question". As if 500 years of colonization and geo-politics never happened. It's the same type of ignorance and willingness to re-write history, for their own convinience, that makes people like to pretend that slavery in the US ended "hundreds of years ago", and that everything from that point after was just parades and flowers.

Since my post was a question posed exclusively about Islamic habits / attitudes I'm only talking about N Africa in what I'm about to write, not sub-saharan Africa. The dominant Empire in most of the region I am talking about (using your 500 years comment) was the Ottoman Empire. A Muslim Empire.

I posted elsewhere recently that when Napoleonic French forces displaced the Ottoman Turks and Mameluks from rule in Egypt in 1798 they recorded the literacy rate as 3%. In W Europe at that time it was in the mid 40% range. The French believed they were on a civilizing mission (they invented the word 'civilization') and brought 150 hand picked engineers artists and scientists. They set up laboratories and performed autopsies (which required secrecy as it violated islamic law). All this I'm quoting from a recent history of these events. So who is exploiting people and retarding progress? Serious question .. love an answer.

Then Turkey itself is another example of the insidious poison of Islam in any nation's bloodstream. Kemal Attaturk (father of the Turks) after WW1 made a serious attempt to secularize Turkey and bring it into the 20th century. The open struggle now taking place between Gulen and Ertogan is a fight between 2 Islamists as to who will be top dog. Ertogan stated: 'Democracy is a train that you get off when you reach your destination'. A convenience to use to gain absolute power. Haven't we seen all this before? And what does any of this have to do with European colonialism ... except as a convenient way to avoid facing awkward truths.
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Reply #10 - June 18, 2017, 05:41 PM

Quote from: AGirlWithDoubts on June 18, 2017, 04:22 PM
I think that you will find that many Christian countries are equally backwards to the most backwards countries in those regions. It's strange that you would boil it down to something that simple, while speaking about cultures that you are unfamiliar with.

I always used to say "insha'Allah" and it still slips out from time to time out of habit. All my life I have still studied for my exams and carried out plans for the things that I wanted. There was this idea that I needed to put the effort in, but at the end of the day it was Allah who would decide my fate. Effort was needed so that I could at least say that I tried my best.

There is a saying in Islam that you should "trust in Allah but still ties your camel". The concept is known as tawakkul (as opposed to tawaakul, which is relying only on your trust in God and not putting in the required effort), and tying your camel is to stop it from running away, even though you trust Allah not to make you lose it. That can be seen as promoting personal responsibility.

Fair criticism of Islam that is properly thought through is welcome. This kind of intellectual laziness will be called out and criticised.

African backwardness in development (specifically in Christian African countries) is an entirely different category and would require a separate discussion. But I don't think it can be laid at the feet of the Christian religion. This is a board for Ex Muslims and therefore I'm focussed solely on Islamic backwardness. I admit to limited first hand experience in the region (though I have travelled some in the ME) - and I'm basing my comments on statistics like GDP, political stability, number of Nobel prizes for science and general satisfaction levels of the people in the region with their circumstances. I am not arguing that pound for pound the people are inferior to their European cousins .... far from it. In my somewhat greater contact with Muslims in the West (greater than travel in the region) I find the people I have known delightful and intelligent. So I naturally wonder what it is that has led to a situation where the GDP of the countries running from Morrocco in the West to Pakistan in the East have (absent oil) a GDP about the size of Finland? And my first guess is Islam has a role to play in this.
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Reply #11 - June 18, 2017, 05:50 PM

Unifier, you have it all figured out Problem is our retarded culture and genetics makes it impossible for us to be enlightened such as yourself

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Reply #12 - June 18, 2017, 05:56 PM

Quote from: Unifier on June 18, 2017, 05:41 PM
.................. So I naturally wonder what it is that has led to a situation where the GDP of the countries running from Morrocco in the West to Pakistan in the East have (absent oil) a GDP about the size of Finland? And my first guess is Islam has a role to play in this.

well I too wonder whether you believe "Christianity and its FAITH HEADS is the reason for the advancement of Science in 19th/20th century dear Unifier?

Any way we are moving far far away from the interest of Lemoncake OP on "Christian Creationist - Islamic Intellectuals-Faith Heads " and their problems with "Origins of god" or concept of god to something else and that is

Islam /Christianity/ other faiths and Advances in Science in 20th/21st century dear Unifier.. I ask you why??

anyway let me add this video here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7CW7S0zxv4

Hmm may be i should watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCwi6NGpbCI

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #13 - June 18, 2017, 06:35 PM

First generalizations, then the Ottoman Empire, then Nobel Prize era... you have a focus or just a prejudice?

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Reply #14 - June 18, 2017, 11:56 PM

Quote from: Xainab on June 18, 2017, 05:09 PM
Though I agree with the points you and other posters have made in response to Unifier, I thought the five pillars were salat, sawm, zakat, Hajj and shahadah?

Yeah, that's a mistake. Thanks.
Jihad is sometimes referred to as the sixth pillar of Islam. I confused a bit.
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Reply #15 - June 19, 2017, 12:23 AM

Quote from: Unifier on June 18, 2017, 11:27 AM
I know this is a big generalization ... but the backwardness of the N African, Middle Eastern and Central Asian Muslim world in literacy, government, industry, science etc must be down to something cultural like this.

Culture is the key word, not islam. If you live in a culture that is A you're more likely to have traits, education, etc of A. Since it's common with all people in that situation whether muslim or not. If you look to the past, you see the reverse, islamic intellectuals were common place. This wouldn't be possible in a predominantly islamic culture if it were purely down to the religion.

Since there were periods of great education, intellectual inquiry, arts, culture and whatnot that flourished within regions of islamic dominance I find it difficult to say islam is to blame full stop.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #16 - June 19, 2017, 10:15 AM

Quote from: Cornflower on June 18, 2017, 05:50 PM
Unifier, you have it all figured out Problem is our retarded culture and genetics makes it impossible for us to be enlightened such as yourself

I specifically excluded genetics. Are you using the racist attack because I'm a non muslim criticizing Islam. Very lazy.
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Reply #17 - June 19, 2017, 10:18 AM

We're all non muslims criticising islam.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #18 - June 19, 2017, 11:37 AM

Quote from: Unifier on June 19, 2017, 10:15 AM
I specifically excluded genetics. Are you using the racist attack because I'm a non muslim criticizing Islam. Very lazy.

No...noo..nah..COOLDOWN dear Unifier ...guys like you with vast life experience are supposed be the force for unification ..let us re-read what cornflower said
Quote from: Cornflower on June 18, 2017, 05:50 PM
Unifier, you have it all figured out Problem is our retarded culture and genetics makes it impossible for us to be enlightened such as yourself

She is saying "You are enlightened " ..Are you not??

and..and..why do you say this ? I agree with you cornflower is very lazy ..I am watching and reading her for a long time

"Are you using the racist attack because I'm a non muslim criticizing Islam. Very lazy."

What is that "RACIST ATTACK BUSINESS"?
is she attacking your race by saying that??
I don't think so..

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Reply #19 - June 19, 2017, 12:42 PM

Cornflower's post misquoted me: 'Problem is our retarded culture and genetics ..... . Genetics = race in this context ... that's all I'm pointing out. I'm not angry or anything ... just disappointed.
'
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Reply #20 - June 19, 2017, 01:19 PM

Quote from: Unifier on June 19, 2017, 12:42 PM
Cornflower's post misquoted me: ..... I'm not angry or anything ... just disappointed.

I am glad you are not angry., and disappointment is not a big deal., I get disappointed by myself almost every hour...
Quote
'Problem is our retarded culture and genetics ..... . Genetics = race in this context ... that's all I'm pointing out.

No..no I don't think so., I think you are misreading her

when she said "our retarded culture " ., there "SHE IS EXCLUDING YOU FROM THAT(HER) CULTURE & GENETICS"

that you may not have realized dear Unifier..

So forget genetics.. I live and work in it but talk to me about "religion /culture" . Questions are

Are you angry at Muslim folks?

or are you angry at religion Islam?

or you are not at all angry at anything.....

with best regards
yeezevee

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #21 - June 19, 2017, 01:23 PM

Oh, I AM lazy. I don't have time nor the will to start a pseuso discussion with you, when your only intention is to present your own idea in order to convice us that Arab, Muslim and Islamic culture is basically retarded. By trying to introduce the topis with a rhetorical question you tried to disguise as genuine inquiry,nonetheless, which makes it so much more repulsive. Wrong place to do this, pal.

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Reply #22 - June 19, 2017, 01:38 PM

yeezevee says this to unifier
Quote from: yeezevee on June 19, 2017, 11:37 AM
....................

and..and..why do you say this ? I agree with you cornflower is very lazy ..I am watching and reading her for a long time.............

and Cornflower replies
Quote from: Cornflower on June 19, 2017, 01:23 PM
Oh, I AM lazy..............

you are not? I actually like lazy folks., THEY WILL NEVER GIVE TROUBLES TO ANYONE.,

damn no one likes me and I don't like anyone

unifier is goodman ...goodman dear Cornflower ., the forum needs many different types of folks

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Reply #23 - June 19, 2017, 03:19 PM

Hi yeezevee and cornflower. I want to be honest with everyone on this board. I am not trying to hide who I am - I am trying to connect while being honest. Am I angry at Islam ... sometimes yes ... very. But sad truth is I am confused and almost incoherent. Why? Because I am a religious man, I genuinely like and respect several aspects within Islam. I am closer to the Muslim view of Jesus for example than the traditional Christian view. I like the emphasis on God, rather than the Messiah and I think Muslim family life is remarkable and admirable as I have encountered it in the Middle East (notwithstanding some horror stories on CEMB). But I would say my more constant underlying emotion is cold fear of this belief system (this may have been triggered by the recent spate of terror attacks), which seems to me to be more of an ideology which uses deceit and fear to advance it's territory and impose Dhimitude or to kill anyone in its path that doesn't accept it as the one true faith. It was fine when it was confined to its historic territories, but now it is amongst us and I can only see trouble ahead for my children and grandchildren.

I'm no different to Sam Harris, Bill Maher, Gordon Murray and countless others who see in Islam (and yes some portion of its adherents) a mortal threat to the culture and way of life I grew up in and that I'm very fond of (Western classically liberal culture). I'm also (like Gad Saad and Scott Peterson) disappointed in the whole political correctness movement in the West which for me poses an equal or greater existential threat to the freedom of speech and debate I believe is vital to any successful and enjoyable society.

I do not hold individual Muslims as responsible for the doctrine and history of Islam. I do not believe anyone on CEMB owes me anything regarding Islam or its history (except perhaps some correction and education from time to time). Ordinary Muslims are more a victim of Islam than I am. I do blame Islamists though and feel like fighting them tooth and nail rhetorically of course (I'm 69 years old after all). I hope I have not caused any offense with my comments.

And yeezevee .. I appreciate in particular your patience and consideration. I am paraphrasing greatly here: You posted a few days ago that fear of Islam is an irrational phobia because the real chance of anyone being killed by a terrorist in a Western country is very small. But, my friend if I may say so that misses the point. The concern and fear is for the survival of a free society and free expression, not fear of being blown up or beheaded. Once fear takes hold freedom is diminished. When I see people killed on the streets of London or Manchester or Paris or Nice - I feel it very personally. It frightens me quite honestly. I know there is more where that came from and I fear where it will end up. I am perfectly safe here in New York ... but my civilization is being challenged and attacked ... it is an existential type of fear. You can call it a phobia (irrational fear) if you want ... but it is a real feeling.
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Reply #24 - June 19, 2017, 04:23 PM

Here's a chilling example of what I'm referring to. Police and German courts effectively intimidated and surrendering German cities to immigrant criminal gangs due to political correctness. The gangs are not all muslim, but the majority are. This is also happening in Sweden and Austria, and possibly elsewhere.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/10543/germany-crime-gangs
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Reply #25 - June 19, 2017, 08:49 PM

Quote from: Unifier on June 19, 2017, 04:23 PM
Here's a chilling example of what I'm referring to. Police and German courts effectively intimidated and surrendering German cities to immigrant criminal gangs due to political correctness. The gangs are not all muslim, but the majority are. This is also happening in Sweden and Austria, and possibly elsewhere.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/10543/germany-crime-gangs

dear unifier fearing ..generating fear ... fear mongering is not the way to solve social/political/economical/criminal problems that often FAITH HEAD CRIMINAL GANGS creates in the society.please read more of Soeren Kern writings.. meanwhile I will read your post where you said
Quote from: Unifier on June 19, 2017, 03:19 PM
Hi yeezevee and cornflower. I want to be honest with everyone on this board. I am not trying to hide who I am - I am trying to connect while being honest. Am I angry at Islam ... sometimes yes ... very. But sad truth is I am confused and almost incoherent. Why? Because I am a religious man, I genuinely like and respect several aspects within Islam. .........

that and try to understand your confusion... that is a long well written response from you but I operate on a basic principle "nothing is unquestionable"

with best wishes
yeezevee

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Reply #26 - June 19, 2017, 10:30 PM

Like the police have not given up on sections of the USA? As if we don't have inner cities where the police won't show up or show up far too late if you call them? Chicago has been complaining about this for years. As if we don't have people being killed by gunfire from non-terrorists at a much higher rate than we do from terrorism? Your fear is misplaced. Were you not a citizen witness at one point, if I remember correctly? Surely you understand we have a lot of violence, from cops, from gangsters, from wanna be vigilantes, from fucking toddlers with guns? You are afraid of what?
Maybe you should turn off the TV, go outside.

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Reply #27 - June 20, 2017, 08:10 AM

Quote from: Unifier on June 19, 2017, 10:15 AM
I specifically excluded genetics. Are you using the racist attack because I'm a non muslim criticizing Islam. Very lazy.

That's not the issue, almost everyone on this forum is a non-Muslim criticising Islam.

The issue with you is that you say that you want to learn from us, which is just fine. From what I can tell this forum has always welcomed people who are not ex-Muslims and want to learn. But when you join with this smug, superior attitude, wagging your finger at us about how we should be friends with a hate preacher who justifies terrorism and talking down to people on subjects where their life experiences and knowledge surpasses yours, you are going to piss a lot of people off and you will find that they are much less willing to engage with you.
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Reply #28 - June 20, 2017, 01:44 PM

Fair enough AGirlWithDoubts. I still disagree about Robinson's character and motives but I don't want to rehash it any more than you do. A moderator called me a 'shill' for Robinson a few weeks ago and shut down my ability to post. A fairly clear insult since a shill is someone who knowingly and deliberately mischaracterizes someone most often for financial gain. I was doing neither. I Hope you have a lovely day and life. I'll try to do the same.
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Reply #29 - June 20, 2017, 07:29 PM

bye felicia

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