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 Topic: Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture

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  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     OP - October 31, 2017, 08:09 PM
    This question has occurred to me a lot over the years whenever I considered becoming an atheist or an agnostic. It's one of the reasons why I turned a blind eye to criticism of Islam and why it was so hard in the beginning to leave the religion at least mentally. Do I really feel the way I feel about Islam, or has colonization worked on me? Is Islam really not worth following, or do I just have self-hatred cultivated by Islamaphobia? What about ex-Muslims living in the Middle East who are not as exposed to Western culture and ideas like I am? I don't inherently hate being Arab but Arab culture and Islam seem so intrinsically embedded in one another it can be hard to tell the difference. It's hard to be an Arab without at least some association to Islam.

    I'm a very politically engaged person, and my location as an Arab ex-Muslim American (who is technically a refugee) is very muddled. I will call out the U.S. on it's bullshit, on the hand it plays in destabilizing the Middle East and creating terror groups like ISIS, and I would even say the U.S. creates conditions where terrorism is inevitable. But on the other hand, I don't like the idea of silencing criticism of Islam, and we have a lot to be accountable for. I do think that the criticism of Islam should be led by ex-Muslims themselves (specifically ex-Muslims with ties to the Middle East), and by moderate Muslims seeking to reform the religion, and not by imperialists like Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins, who will undeniably advocate for more violence.

    I worry that being Arab-American and an ex-Muslim means I have been "colonized" or that I am in fact a colonizer. The last thing I want to do is contribute the narrative advocating for the "war on terror." But I do wish "my people" would get their heads out of the sand and see how repressive certain parts of Islam are, to see how we seriously need to change as an entire community if we want to survive. I wish I could be more outspoken about my issues with Islam but my conscience is very heavy with the idea that I might just be another western imperialist. This is why I don't criticize Islam with my non-Muslim or non-Arab friends. I only question and criticize with the Arab and Muslim community and I feel that is the best and most moral position I can take.

    What do you all think?
    "Nothing lasts forever. Even the stars die."

    A for Atheist
    A for Apostate
    A for Anonymous
    A for Aqua
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #1 - October 31, 2017, 09:38 PM
    I know exactly how you feel. I don't really have a problem with Richard Dawkins but cannot stand Sam Harris and he is rarely right when it comes to political discussion outside of the West. I much prefer critics of Islam who have first-hand experience of the religion and know the Middle East and/or other Muslim-majority regions. In almost every case they are much more likely to know what they are talking about.

    The reason why I didn't choose to just be a liberal Muslims is that quite frankly I want nothing more to do with Islamic societies. Many of the people who I spent my childhood around insufferable and are always up in your business when given the chance. I don't want to associate with them or the crazies who are always wagging their tongues on the news with their extremist ideas.

    But it is a struggle because I also don't want to be associated with the right-wing who incite hatred towards all Muslims. That is why I really don't want the ex-Muslim label to be associated with right-wing bigots, and the likes of Hirsi Ali are not helping. If this becomes the case then I will no longer be able to identify as an ex-Muslim either.

    Life would just be a lot simpler and easier without labels. But even when you don't label yourself, people still label you.
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #2 - October 31, 2017, 10:14 PM
    I really don't want the ex-Muslim label to be associated with right wing bigots either. I want to be very careful about who I speak my opinions to. The last people I want to share my concerns about the Muslim community with are our oppressors. The thing is with guys like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris and Bill Maher (or anyone who doesn't have ties to the Mid East or the Muslim community) is their criticism is racialized and that is a very dangerous thing.
    "Nothing lasts forever. Even the stars die."

    A for Atheist
    A for Apostate
    A for Anonymous
    A for Aqua
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #3 - November 01, 2017, 01:46 AM
    Islam isn't just a racial/cultural identity, although it does have components of that. It's an ideology which makes supernatural truth claims that have a profound impact on an adherent's worldview.

    To me, that's why I can't consider myself Muslim, no matter how much I identify with Muslims among my family and friends. It's not right wing or racist or self hating or anything along those lines to think about and see things in that way.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #4 - November 01, 2017, 05:43 PM
    I would say the same thing about myself. My question is to what extent does "western" influence have on that? If it even matters, which it probably doesn't, but it's still an interesting question. I imagine myself in an alternative reality where my family never left Iraq and I'd probably be a hardcore Muslim.
    "Nothing lasts forever. Even the stars die."

    A for Atheist
    A for Apostate
    A for Anonymous
    A for Aqua
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #5 - November 01, 2017, 05:54 PM
    Quote from: Aqua on November 01, 2017, 05:43 PM
    I would say the same thing about myself. My question is to what extent does "western" influence have on that? If it even matters, which it probably doesn't, but it's still an interesting question. I imagine myself in an alternative reality where my family never left Iraq and I'd probably be a hardcore Muslim.

    let me cut off  nonsense assumption of Aqua on  what  a person should have been/would have been if Aqua family stayed in Iraq....

    I can give plenty of examples of women folks who questioned misogyny in Islam/Islamic scriptures  without leaving the country they were born in to ..  So..Aqua is wrong there ..

    And what is hardcore Muslim dear Aqua.. define that word...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #6 - November 01, 2017, 06:12 PM
    haha I'm not generalizing about Muslim women as a whole, but I'm saying because I've seen how my family back in Iraq is, it's not a stretch to say I wouldn't be much different from them? Especially on my dad's side of the family. Then again my dad does say I have a lot of my grandmother in me, and she was a take-no-crap-from-men kinda lady...

    But I'm 100% sure I'd be a devout practicing Muslim. There's like no question there.
    "Nothing lasts forever. Even the stars die."

    A for Atheist
    A for Apostate
    A for Anonymous
    A for Aqua
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #7 - November 02, 2017, 03:54 PM
    Quote from: Aqua on November 01, 2017, 06:12 PM
    haha I'm not generalizing about Muslim women as a whole, but I'm saying because I've seen how my family back in Iraq is, it's not a stretch to say I wouldn't be much different from them? Especially on my dad's side of the family. Then again my dad does say I have a lot of my grandmother in me, and she was a take-no-crap-from-men kinda lady.....

    But I'm 100% sure I'd be a devout practicing Muslim. There's like no question there.

    Aqua .. dear Aqua .. religiously speaking  I am Zebra by birth .,   My grand mother was a Shia  Muslim...  and she was devout practicing Muslim., GrandPa  and Grandma died almost together with in Month and I was 7 year old boy...  SHE WAS A WONDERFUL PERSON ., if they lived another 10 years or so  my life would have been entirely different from what it is now ..

    So  I asked you a question
    Quote from: yeezevee on November 01, 2017, 05:54 PM
    ................. ..

    And what is hardcore Muslim dear Aqua.. define that word...


      You answered me with
    Quote from: Aqua on November 01, 2017, 06:12 PM
    .............
    But I'm 100% sure I'd be a devout practicing Muslim. There's  no question there.

     
    So  same question/s to you ..  

    What is  hardcore Muslim?
    And who is  a devout practicing Muslim??  
    what are their qualities??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #8 - November 02, 2017, 04:14 PM
    ok ok i take back what i said about hardcore muslims lol - to be honest I don't even know what I meant by that.

    Devout practicing Muslim - a Muslim who follows all the rules to T and beyond. That's all I meant by devout practicing Muslim lol
    Quote
    Aqua .. dear Aqua .. religiously speaking  I am Zebra by birth .,   My grand mother was a Shia  Muslim...  and she was devout practicing Muslim., GrandPa  and Grandma died almost together with in Month and I was 7 year old boy...  SHE WAS A WONDERFUL PERSON ., if they lived another 10 years or so  my life would have been entirely different from what it is now ..

    What I meant by my OP was how much does nature vs. nurture play a factor into the way we think? I question whether I would be an agnostic person today if I was born and raised in Iraq like I was supposed to be. I'm not saying NO ONE in Iraq is an agnostic or atheist person, I'm talking specifically about my family back home and their surroundings, and on both sides of my family it is not the norm to really ask questions about Islam or address problematic issues. In that sense I probably would be the same way as my family. That's all I meant when I said I'd be a devout practicing Muslim. I'M NOT SAYING THEY'RE BAD PEOPLE BECAUSE OF THIS, just that their religious views may ultimately be a product of their immediate environment. Like myself.


    "Nothing lasts forever. Even the stars die."

    A for Atheist
    A for Apostate
    A for Anonymous
    A for Aqua
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #9 - November 02, 2017, 04:36 PM
    Quote from: Aqua on November 02, 2017, 04:14 PM
    ok ok i take back ....................................................

    That's all I meant when I said I'd be a devout practicing Muslim. I'M NOT SAYING THEY'RE BAD PEOPLE BECAUSE OF THIS, just that their religious views may ultimately be a product of their immediate environment. Like myself.

     
    That food is NOT enough for me.,  I need more food... So..

    What is devout Islam   and who is  devout practicing Muslim..  Examples  of  some well known  Muslim folks please ...  for e.g


    Abdul Sattar Edhi (Urdu: عبدالستار ایدھی‎‎; c.  28 February 1928 – 8 July 2016)


    That simple person you see above  I consider him  as a devout Muslim  .. read about him   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Sattar_Edhi   and watch him

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiMv95Z-bow

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u0mNLdL4U4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDoPkm_8CDg
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #10 - November 02, 2017, 04:49 PM
    idk I guess just the run of the mill Muslim you'd find praying at a mosque in Mashhad or the so-called scholars of the Hawza like Sistani and his pupils lol
    "Nothing lasts forever. Even the stars die."

    A for Atheist
    A for Apostate
    A for Anonymous
    A for Aqua
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #11 - November 02, 2017, 04:58 PM
    Quote from: Aqua on November 02, 2017, 04:49 PM
    ............. like Sistani and his pupils lol .................

    nah..   more  names please

     https://www.sistani.org/english/
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #12 - November 02, 2017, 05:05 PM
    i don't know that many famous muslims lol

    "Nothing lasts forever. Even the stars die."

    A for Atheist
    A for Apostate
    A for Anonymous
    A for Aqua
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #13 - November 02, 2017, 06:05 PM
    Quote from: Aqua on November 02, 2017, 05:05 PM
    i don't know that many famous muslims lol

    all right   dear  Aqua., so back to the folder..

    How actually we define ..Who is Muslim?  What is Islam?? and
    WHAT ARE THE BARE BONES OF ISLAM  TO CALL Himself/herself as Muslim??

    and meanwhile  let me read this
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #14 - November 02, 2017, 09:52 PM
    The bare bones are believing in one God and that Mohammed is his messenger (in Shi'ite case, that Imam Ali is the successor) that's all you need to believe to call yourself a Muslim.
    "Nothing lasts forever. Even the stars die."

    A for Atheist
    A for Apostate
    A for Anonymous
    A for Aqua
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #15 - November 03, 2017, 07:00 AM
    Quote from: Aqua on November 02, 2017, 09:52 PM
    The bare bones are believing in one God and that Mohammed is his messenger (in Shi'ite case, that Imam Ali is the successor) that's all you need to believe to call yourself a Muslim.


    Nope.,,  that is NOT what  I get from Islam after  I  clean the  junk/gibberish/nonsense from it..  What I get in it is this ..
      
    There is No God but God
    God has no sons and no daughters
    and you inquire about who the God is

    Aqua ..you Americans make some good movies .. i linked it in another post for Unification Church Unifier at https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=31244.msg874199#msg874199  ....watch it

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
     
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #16 - November 04, 2017, 07:53 AM
    Islam is such a pathetic violent religion which uses force to keep people from questioning and leaving the faith I wouldn't even call it a faith. How can Islam be peaceful when Muslims aren't even at peace with each other Sunnis call Shias rafidis and heretics and kill them Shias call Sunnis Wahhabis and Nasibis and kill them, what a truly pathetic vile ideology it's a stain on this Earth.
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #17 - November 04, 2017, 03:56 PM
    Yeah I think that may be the nature vs. nurture thing I'm talking about. I don't believe Muslims are just inherently violent and I do think it's really irresponsible and also dangerous to assume that they/we are. You have to factor in the environment we're brought up in, especially the family environment...i have more to say on this topic but I'm supposed to be working lol
    "Nothing lasts forever. Even the stars die."

    A for Atheist
    A for Apostate
    A for Anonymous
    A for Aqua
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #18 - November 04, 2017, 05:42 PM
    Muslims themselves aren't the problem the problem is Islam and an overwhelming number of Muslims haven't even read a word of the Quran the problem are the few Muslims who fully practice Islam and follow the Quran to its every word like Isis or Al Qaeda or if you will call it the Salafi or Wahhabi movement.
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #19 - December 20, 2017, 06:20 AM
    Just read your first post (a few things I get), but what's your reasoning for saying that Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins are imperialists?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #20 - December 20, 2017, 03:10 PM
    I believe in all religions, and also atheism/agnosticism
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #21 - December 20, 2017, 03:24 PM
    Hmm......   Prophet  Patrick  PBUH says something here
    Quote from: Patrick on December 20, 2017, 03:10 PM
    I believe in all religions, and also atheism/agnosticism

    Errr....  that is  not a big  deal dear Prophet  Patrick...,  All  faith heads follow  the same pattern irrespective of their faiths

    But  this post here at  https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=31073.msg874991#msg874991    is really  good one  from you
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #22 - January 30, 2018, 09:26 PM
    Quote
    Just read your first post (a few things I get), but what's your reasoning for saying that Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins are imperialists?

    I'm mostly talking about Sam Harris because I don't know to what extent Richard Dawkins supports the U.S. foreign policy.

    With Sam Harris, he doesn't apply the same skepticism when it comes to the motives behind the U.S. invading and bombing Middle Eastern countries as he does to the motives of extremist groups like Al Qaeda and ISIS killing people. He genuinely believes that the U.S. has "good" intentions - this is evident in his attempted debate with Noam Chomsky.
    "Nothing lasts forever. Even the stars die."

    A for Atheist
    A for Apostate
    A for Anonymous
    A for Aqua
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #23 - January 31, 2018, 05:28 AM
    wow, haven't been on here for years and coincidentally i have been having similar thoughts.

    part of the problem for me is that islam isn't a sola scriptura religion (excluding qur'anists!) so the only real secularism is french laicite. it is a living breathing tradition, that is, well, traditional... rather than an abstract faith, per se.

    As a turk, i can say that didn't work very well did it? noone forgot the injustices of the military and their juntas, which despite the secularist veneer were generally geared towards brutal crackdown on the left and communists... and the islamists were of temporary use to the kemalist state, so they managed to get off comparitively (this is 1980s turkey after all) scott free.

    And now, we have soft secularism (officially) but increasing islamisation and eurasian fascism. so where does that leave us? a return to high kemalism is so incredibly unlikely it's not even worth considering, + my kurdish heritage winces... and actually, the afrin olivebranch operation shows us that the kemalists are happy to line up with neo-ottomanist foreign policy...

    I've been meaning to read this for a while. though sadly I think in the tradition of serious academia its going to be obstruse word salad over not very much at all — that antiproduction zeitgeist looms large!
    https://press.princeton.edu/titles/10587.html

    BTW: is there an irc chat room or anything of the sort? could do with the company as my family's conservative turn becomes more pronounced — hajj is weird in that regard...
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #24 - January 31, 2018, 06:33 AM
    Another problem is that the new atheists partially need to take responsibility for spreading the political idea that atheists and christian far rightists can coexist so long as they are attacking islam (which generally means, politics of the state and capital by other ends.) In that regard unfortunately many middle easterners are not unwarranted to think that atheism is yet more of the same old western domination. The revolutions in the me could have taken a more secular turn but the US and quite a lot of the anti-imperialist left had a completely wrongheaded analysis of jihadism (for E: people still deny that assad regime released many jihadists, people still deny that the US gutted the secular core of the fsa by only providing support if they were attack jihadists or/ isis, and not the regime.) Not going into Egypt and Tunisia here.

    But many of us have had to buckle under this pressure.

    I'll write more when I'm less tired.
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #25 - January 31, 2018, 04:47 PM
    Quote from: schizo on January 31, 2018, 05:28 AM
    I've been meaning to read this for a while. though sadly I think in the tradition of serious academia its going to be obstruse word salad over not very much at all — that antiproduction zeitgeist looms large!
    https://press.princeton.edu/titles/10587.html

    I’m part way through reading this and I’d say it’s worthwhile, but very much written by an academic for other academics.
    Which side are you on?
  • Do you really reject Islam or has colonization worked on you? Nature.v.s.Nurture
     Reply #26 - February 06, 2018, 02:36 PM
    Yay. schizo's back!
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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