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- SomePsychoPaki
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OP - November 24, 2017, 11:23 PM

cHaNg3d mY m1nd
- AGirlWithDoubts
- Ex-Muslim
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Reply #1 - November 26, 2017, 05:24 PM

It's your choice, but you're welcome whether you choose to stay a Muslim or not. I didn't get a chance to read your OP so don't understand your circumstances
- SomePsychoPaki
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Reply #2 - November 26, 2017, 06:01 PM

Maybe you can help me... I'm having difficulty deciding at the moment, epsecially when it comes to the whole "Quran is a linguistic miracle" argument.
- AGirlWithDoubts
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Reply #3 - November 26, 2017, 06:54 PM

Which arguments are being used to prove that the Qur'an is a linguistic miracle? The claim that the Arabs could not bring a verse similar to any verse in the Qur'an? This claim has been debunked many times on this forum, and there are actually grammatical errors in the Qur'an. I'm out right now but will post some links for you when I get back.
- SomePsychoPaki
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Reply #4 - November 26, 2017, 08:12 PM

I've tried everything, but nothing seems to be able to debunk the claim that the Quran is unique, and cannot be imitated. If it was incoherent gibberish, this would be understandable, but it's not. It's a literary beauty.

The closest thing to debunking this which I can find is that the early Meccan chapters are actually Saj, and that only later Quranic chapters start to become unique. If this claim is true, the Quran can be imitated (and obviously has been since we have many great pieces of Saj in both Arabic and non Arabic), and it also shows that the Quran as a text evolved, with the author becoming more and more competent as he had more and more experience in producing literary masterpieces.
- AGirlWithDoubts
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Reply #5 - November 26, 2017, 11:14 PM

It's ultimately your decision; if you prefer to stay a Muslim then no one will try to make you leave Islam. If you are not happy being a Muslim and think you can find peace elsewhere, I would recommend watching this video created by the CEMB admin (they've got lots of other good ones as well) it focuses on refuting the claim that the Qur'an is a miracle:
https://youtu.be/2CHm2xigkBc

There is some beauty in the Qur'an, I don't dispute this. There are also a lot of stories that were taken from the Bible and some very mediocre parts. It is also full of contradictions and will preach one thing in one of the chapters then the opposite in the next chapter. How can a miracle book be so inconsistent? I used to believe that it was a miracle as well, but later on realised that this was only because the idea had been drilled into my mind since childhood. This is coming from someone who memorised it.

Some useful reading here:
https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22828.0
- SomePsychoPaki
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Reply #6 - November 26, 2017, 11:52 PM

I have no qualms being Muslim or not, I'm relying purely on evidence.

The fact is, nobody (I've checked everyone, and already seen the links you sent) can dispute the claim that the Quran is unique (whilst still being an excellent piece of literature), and that nobody has been able to copy it or replicate what it has done.

There are other pieces of evidence I believe in which only strengthens my belief in Islam, but this is the crux (along with the whole "universe had a start" argument which I also don't think anybody can refute, nor has anyone been able to from my experience, but that argument works better for general proof of deism rather than a specific religion). Since this argument simply cannot be refuted, I think I'm sticking to Islam.

This one of many times I've questioned Islam over the past several years, sometimes these questions have caused me to leave the religion completely for months on end, but eventually I keep coming back due to new evidence.

Oh and I've already been through all these attempts to disprove Islam, they don't hold up in my eyes. The only problem I had recently was what I perceived to be a lack of proof for Islam (but not anymore).

This will likely be the last interrogation of my belief's though, as I've scoured the internet looking for any possible refutation of this argument, and I can't find it unlike with the others.

This is it. I'm a Muslim.
- AGirlWithDoubts
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Reply #7 - November 27, 2017, 12:21 AM

Whatever you're most comfortable with. The way I see it is that if Islam claims to be the one true religion, the burden of proof lies with those who claim that it is to prove it's thw one true religion. Once the proof is produced then the burden shifts to those who say that it isn't the truth.

The works of Rūmī and Shakespeare are unique and have not been imitated, that does not mean that they are from God. In fact, they are probably even more unique that the Qur'an; they do not imitate other pieces of literature to the extent that the Qur'an does the Bible. And like the Qur'an their work has imperfections. I would also point out that a book that has even one contradiction of error cannot possibly be perfect and divine. The Qur'an has more than one.

However, if Islam convinces you then all the best
- babooshka
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Reply #8 - November 27, 2017, 12:48 AM

do what you want..... just don't impose your views on others.

you mentioned in your original post that you slapped your sister for not praying and beat up some shia guy? I hope you apologised to both of them.
- SomePsychoPaki
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Reply #9 - November 27, 2017, 12:52 AM

I did beat up some Shia guy, but I didn't slap my sister, my post said I threatened to kill her.

So on the upside, I didn't actually harm her.

On the downside, I threatened to do much worse.

I wasn't all in the head back then...
- SomePsychoPaki
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Reply #10 - November 27, 2017, 12:54 AM

I know you guys will disagree with me about contradictions, but I personally find the rhetoric other Muslims provide to be sufficient.

As for Shakespeare and the likes, their works are still a recognisable style, the Quran isn't like that, it has no recognisable style yet it's still coherent, in fact, it's more than that, it's an excellent piece of literature.
- AGirlWithDoubts
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Reply #11 - November 27, 2017, 10:10 PM

Not when you become familiar with other pieces of Arabic literature. The Arabs ars renowned for their poetry and the work of some of the other poets I studied at school stunned me. The Qur'an doesn't sound all that special in comparison. The reason why Shakespeare's style is recognisable to you but the Qur'an isn't is probably because you have a better grasp on English poetry (unless I'm mistaken).
- babooshka
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Reply #12 - November 28, 2017, 02:24 PM

Quote from: SomePsychoPaki on November 27, 2017, 12:52 AM
I did beat up some Shia guy, but I didn't slap my sister, my post said I threatened to kill her.

So on the upside, I didn't actually harm her.

On the downside, I threatened to do much worse.

I wasn't all in the head back then...

you see its little pricks like you that are part of the problem. most muslims wouldn't want to beat someone up for being the wrong sect. they wouldn't threaten to kill their siblings either. but they all get tarred with the same brush cos of people like you. do you have any idea of the amount of damage you've done to your sister and the guy you beat up?

do yourself a favour and sort out your mental condition out first before delving into the 'miracles' of the koran.
- bogart
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Reply #13 - November 28, 2017, 03:04 PM

Quote from: SomePsychoPaki on November 26, 2017, 08:12 PM
I've tried everything, but nothing seems to be able to debunk the claim that the Quran is unique, and cannot be imitated.

It is an irrelevant claim. Uniqueness does not indicate divinity in any way. Imitated is not a sign of divinity either. If I challenge you to make a pizza exactly like I do and you fail, as exact reproduction is impossible, does that mean my pizza is divine or I am as you can not copy my pizza exactly?

Stop to consider if the very idea being put forward is valid itself before worrying about debunking it. Nonsensical claims do not need to be refuted as the claim is a a non-starter.
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The closest thing to debunking this which I can find is that the early Meccan chapters are actually Saj,

So part of it is not that unique in form. Ergo the previous point is partial moot.

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and that only later Quranic chapters start to become unique. If this claim is true, the Quran can be imitated (and obviously has been since we have many great pieces of Saj in both Arabic and non Arabic), and it also shows that the Quran as a text evolved, with the author becoming more and more competent as he had more and more experience in producing literary masterpieces.

This is nothing new. Many forms of art have used existing methods while developing new methods. It is how new forms and methods of art are actually created. At some point someone was the first at something. Someone was the first to use stone in art. Someone was the first to use stone for representation art. Someone was the first to use stone to create statues of humans. Someone was the first in using previously unused material for statues rather than stone. Development is why we have more forms of poetry than simple rhyming poetry only. Being the first to development a new form and/or method is not a sign of divinity but of creativity.

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