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 Topic: Apostasy Alternative

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  • Apostasy Alternative
     OP - March 22, 2020, 10:17 AM
    I get the feeling you have to be a driven kind of person to chose apostasy. Or be driven to it by circumstance. But shouldn't there be an alternative for lazy bums and uncommitted types? Yes, I think so.

    The simple answer is to ignore religion without making a fuss about it. No dramatic confession or distasteful declaration required. Just live your life and don't worry about other people's ideology. It also means not talking about your own ideology. If you're properly lazy then you shouldn't have one!

    Now, this only works if you have a relatively boring but comfortable lifestyle. The good news for adults is you can have your cake and eat it. Scared that friends and family will disown you for not towing the line? Don't worry, they'll probably get over it. Worst case scenario is they send you to coventry. Better then them damning you to hell.

    As the goal is to avoid hassle, the key is to ignore rather than confront religious people. It's tempting to argue with their silly beliefs but don't do it. You want to wear them down with stubborness until they write you off as a black sheep - not a sacrificial lamb.

    You'll need a thick skin against backbiting and have no illusions about reforming/saving people by your example. A lazy kind of contentment can be achieved this way. And isn't that more than enough? If the answer is no then your road will be stressful and potentially unfulfilling. So good luck with that!


  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #1 - May 14, 2020, 02:41 PM
    I think we all do that to some extent. No atheist is plugging atheism 24/7. In fact, the vast majority of those who have left Islam (and other faiths) are quiet about it. It's easier for them not to 'come out' and to carry on as normal.

    The main downside of this is that it allows Muslims to claim that apostasy is either in insignificant numbers or that it doesn't even exist and every exMuslim is some Christian, Israeli, Indian agent lying about having been a Muslim.

    I'm not advocating that Muslims who could be in danger if they profess loudly make a big deal about their apostasy. But most exMuslims can fight back in more subtle ways. Like when filling out forms, dont tick Muslim. Tick no religion.

    Let the surveys and the polls show the shrinking numbers so we can all get a real idea of how big the emancipation is.
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #2 - May 16, 2020, 02:13 PM
    The cemb approach is about being provocative. To be fair, it doesn't take much to provoke muslims but I guess it highlights their intolerance. I'm not sure whether it changes any minds though. Radical activism only effects change through infiltrating the education system - but hijabified and segregated schools  show that hasn't happened. Despite their public enemy status, muslims still have support from labour politicians (currently). Meanwhile, exmuslims barely register on the radar and raising awareness on twitter or stunts outside embassies won't change that. Sure, they will be used as talking points and native informants but it's a dead end in my opinion.

    My solution is stubborn individualism. It bypasses the muslim community and the host society - neither of those can be expected to do us any favours in britain. Nor do we have the borrow the language of race, feminist or lgbt activists. We already have legal rights and the closet mindset does not apply. The ex-muslim identifier should be scrapped too. It's a mental trap which is best avoided.








  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #3 - May 16, 2020, 09:39 PM
    Quote from: crumble on May 16, 2020, 02:13 PM
    ................................................................
    My solution is stubborn individualism. It bypasses the muslim community and the host society - neither of those can be expected to do us any favours in britain. Nor do we have the borrow the language of race, feminist or lgbt activists. We already have legal rights and the closet mindset does not apply. The ex-muslim identifier should be scrapped too. It's a mental trap which is best avoided.

      you got a point there but  what is Ex-Muslim?  how do you define that word dear crumble?  Give me another word..

    How about A Muslim  without   faith?? would that help?

    Suggest me a single word for that .... that fits  for a person  who was born to Muslim father and converted mother  but do not believein " Quran is word of God.." ...... and doesn't believe in ritual nonsense.......except lives with  "THERE IS NO GOD BUT GOD"

      As far your legal rights are concerned .. do not visit/come  to the town  I grew up.... I visit often .... with  your  legal rights of  London .. They do not work there.,   And..And what is the problem if "some one he/she says"  that  He/she does not believe any more in BOOKISH MULLAH  Islam .. and does not care for  what call him/her??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #4 - May 17, 2020, 12:55 AM
    I looked for alternative identities and substitute labels but eventually come to the conclusion that it doesn't work. Why define yourself in relation to something you don't subscribe to? Furthermore, there's no need to construct an alternative.

    It doesn't matter what other people call you. Nor is there any compulsion to advertise yourself to all and sundry. As there no such thing as a community of believers, neither should there be a community of disbelievers.

  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #5 - May 17, 2020, 02:21 PM
    Quote from: crumble on May 17, 2020, 12:55 AM
    I looked for alternative identities and substitute labels but eventually come to the conclusion that it doesn't work. Why define yourself in relation to something you don't subscribe to? Furthermore, there's no need to construct an alternative.

     well  you crumbled away.,  let us try again and this time we should look deeper than the depth you dived   so far dear crumble
    Quote
    It doesn't matter what other people call you. Nor is there any compulsion to advertise yourself to all and sundry. As there no such thing as a community of believers, neither should there be a community of disbelievers.


    Yes I agree except those highlighted words.,      .....WHEN .. there no such thing as a community of believers  Until .....UNTIL THEN  .... we should not live in Utopian centered concepts.. lala lands..  But I will give it to faith heads this one thing..

    I fully accept "that there is a difference between facts and truth."..  Hence they.......... The Faith Heads., The Faith Seekers and Faith Enquirers ..... must have freedom to preach/pray whatever flying spaghetti they like .. the restriction I put there is "GOLDEN RULE" .. it is one sentence rule unlike their gillion page  faith books ......that is all  they need to follow when they act..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #6 - May 17, 2020, 04:22 PM
     
    Quote from: yeezevee on May 17, 2020, 02:21 PM
    The Faith Seekers and Faith Enquirers ..... must have freedom to preach/pray whatever flying spaghetti they like[/b][/u] .. the restriction I put there is "GOLDEN RULE" .. it is one sentence rule unlike their gillion page  faith books ......that is all  they need to follow when they act..


    your golden rule religion is a bit selfish. demanding reciprocity is a bit tyrannical too.

    codified values are the start of trouble.
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #7 - May 18, 2020, 09:27 AM
    Quote from: crumble on May 17, 2020, 04:22 PM

    Quote
    your golden rule religion is a bit  selfish . demanding reciprocity is a bit tyrannical too.


    codified values are the start of trouble.

    good point crumble.. true ,, but let me add the word "UNQUESTIONABLE"  to that statement and read it as

    unquestionable codified values are the start of trouble. ..

    As far as that "selfish" _ golden rule is concerned..,  ...... yes it does sound fishy .......   it is indeed HUMANFISH if not SELFISH... and you are right ., that rule has a bit of  "Humancentric design" and I am of the opinion that it is an approach for better  product development that puts user needs.........

    Off course as often as  I say " that there is nothing unquestionable" .,  hence  crumble and crumble types must have freedom to question that rule dear crumble/\
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #8 - May 25, 2020, 09:36 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on May 17, 2020, 02:21 PM
    let us try again and this time we should look deeper than the depth you dived


    to try is to fail - so good luck withr that.

    the alternative is to take a road which isn't on the map and not worry about reaching a destination.



  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #9 - May 27, 2020, 01:47 PM
    Quote from: crumble on May 25, 2020, 09:36 AM
    to try is to fail - so good luck withr that.

    the alternative is to take a road which isn't on the map and not worry about reaching a destination.


     that is the key point dear crumble..

    "DO NOT WORRY ABOUT REACHING DESTINATION"....... but ..try .. try .. try .. again and again.... and never stop trying..

    well on those words on Apostasy Alternative  let me read this young man.. ..Syed Ali Imran...  today he wrote a wonderful article on Sufi philosophy in Dawn   .. I will read that later  but for now., let me read Apostasy Ruling and Its Justification In Twelver Shi'i  Jurisprudence

    in that he writes at the end

    Quote
    This presents an epistemological dilemma for the jurists. Here we see the need for a thorough discussion on the role of human rights, ethical and historical propositions within jurisprudence. Perhaps just like there exists general and specific jurisprudential principles that govern the deduction process of a jurist, serious discussions on principles of human rights and ethics need to be carried out which would then overlook and govern the deduction process. On the other hand, while with historical propositions the goal is to uncover the truth regarding the occurrence of an event, the same methodology and strict standard used in deriving law should not be applied or expected in one’s historical methodology. History as an independent subject has its set of rules and methodologies, and what role establishing binding proof plays in that (if any) is a question on its own. However, not enough work has been done on discussing the relationship of history as a subject whose propositions generally do not result in certainty, with jurisprudence.

    ]i\Shi’i jurisprudence prides itself in being flexible and adaptive to changing times. If that is the case, then these consequential methodological discussions would need to become mainstream if there is any hope for the counter-arguments to be taken seriously. Until then, the global impression towards the implementation of certain Islamic laws - particularly when there is room for discussion on them - will remain an area of concern in the modern contemporary world [/i]


    well I may NOT agree with all that what he wrote at the link.. but I will agree with what he said at the end...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #10 - June 20, 2020, 01:39 PM
    why do you need to read boring legalese and esoteric gibberish to understand who you are? you only surrender your personal agency by framing your existence with ideas like identity and community.

  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #11 - June 20, 2020, 02:16 PM
    Quote from: Ronin on May 14, 2020, 02:41 PM
    The main downside of this is that it allows Muslims to claim that apostasy is either in insignificant numbers or that it doesn't even exist and every exMuslim is some Christian, Israeli, Indian agent lying about having been a Muslim.


    well, those who call themselves exmuslims are usually trading up to post-christianity so those muslim claims are only inaccurate rather than absurd.
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #12 - June 20, 2020, 02:36 PM
     
    Quote from: crumble on June 20, 2020, 01:39 PM
    why do you need to read

    I don't need to read crumble.. But I READ .. and I read tons of stuff..
    Quote
    boring legalese and esoteric gibberish to understand who you are? you only surrender your personal agency by framing your existence with ideas like identity and community.

    Curious here .. when you use that word "YOU"..."YOUR"  .. are you referring to me or are you referring the  author..??

    I do not read legalese silly documents and  gibberish To Understand myself..  I know who I am.,   I READ THEM FOR OTHERS.. and how is it going w.r.t this

    Quote from: crumble on June 06, 2020, 12:33 PM
    ......................... so we must interrogate you rather than dawkins. ..................


    Ibn Abdur Rehman  writes today  at https://dawn.com/news/3000352/undefined

    Quote
    ........It is a good time to be living in because Javed Akhtar won the prestigious Richard Dawkins Award 2020 for “critical thinking, holding religious dogma up to scrutiny, advancing human progress and humanist values”. Humankind needs the values mentioned in the citation to sustain its claim to be living by reason. And our dear Malala Yousafzai has also made the times worth living in by delivering a special virtual commencement address, reminding us that she will soon receive her degree from Oxford, and continue to lay new milestones on her path towards women’s liberation and empowerment...........


    That Javed Akhtar of India richly deserves that award .. and I am so glad to note that.. I support and supported him on various online forum to roll the trolls on hot pan...

    with best wishes
    yeezevev
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #13 - June 20, 2020, 06:39 PM
    'you' as in the reader.

    I'll offer the crumble award to anyone who argues that religious dogma isn't only limited to religions.
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #14 - June 21, 2020, 06:05 AM
    Quote from: crumble on June 20, 2020, 06:39 PM
    'you' as in the reader.


    Oh Ok., Yes readers ......YOU & me...........

    Quote
    I'll offer the crumble award to ...........

     
     Yes.. Yes..   crumble cookie award .. we need it.....

    nothing  wrong in  making an award on your nick dear crumble  .. CEMB forum had a weekly crown on posters head.,  but to make crumble cookie award as famous as  Dawkins or  other awards around the globe  ....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins_Award

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_peace_prizes

    we need to make crumble very famous dear crumble

    Quote
    ............. religious dogma isn't only limited to religions.........


    As far as that is concerned., YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ., yes there are dogmas  and some them are nothing to do with religions., but they are  similar and they are  from faith based mindsets/faith heads  and please  Read the bottom of very post or any post ...

     let me add  this

    Any religion or philosophy or ideology that cannot stand up to scrutiny and criticism and  its followers resort to violence to intimidate their critics and detractors is indeed unworthy of the intellectual attention and it only belongs to shaming and trashing .  When free speech is regulated it also  directly affects   freedom of thought   in an individual and will  self regulating effect with in the person.,  sort of brain washing.,    But as long we all (that includes faith heads) use golden rule to set the guidelines it really does not matter.. 

    Any way I am sure you have all that in your thoughts when you are writing responses

    with best regards
    yeeevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #15 - August 05, 2020, 08:02 AM
    if someone constructed a new islamic faith based on the golden rule and proto quranic verses (the least fabricated/political),  would you be tempted?
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #16 - August 05, 2020, 01:34 PM
    Quote from: crumble on August 05, 2020, 08:02 AM
    if someone constructed a new islamic faith based on the golden rule and proto quranic verses (the least fabricated/political),  would you be tempted?

    there in fact is a golden rule already built in to Islam., except fools do not read, if they read they do not understand it., ....  In fact .. every faith has/used that statement one way or other way...

    you see crumble .. there is a line floating under every post of mine...   So for me to go in to any faith that faith must follow that rule + Golden rule., So for  me  " Golden Rule PLUS.."

    In fact Islam was a good faith to start with and that you can see in Quran manuscripts before it became a book ., That does not mean that it is UNQUESTIONABLE...

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #17 - August 05, 2020, 02:18 PM
    so what were the tenets of this good faith besides the golden rule
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #18 - August 05, 2020, 02:24 PM
    Quote from: crumble on August 05, 2020, 02:18 PM
    so what were the tenets of this good faith besides the golden rule


    ................NOTHING IS UNQUESTIONABLE.........

    ., ............people must have freedom to argue, to question any faith any hypothesis in any field 

    ...............religions/faith/science/political ideology.... whatever.. ............    ..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #19 - August 05, 2020, 02:27 PM
    but if you remove the idea of a meccan prophet and retrofitted abrahamic gumf,  is there anything left? 
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #20 - August 05, 2020, 02:31 PM
    Quote from: crumble on August 05, 2020, 02:27 PM
    but if you remove the idea of a meccan prophet and retrofitted abrahamic gumf,  is there anything left? 

    well that one should figure out from  Quran Manuscripts..

    DId you read  Quran dear crumble?? what did the Quran writers retrofit??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #21 - August 05, 2020, 03:09 PM
    I should get around to reading all of it but currently happy with my lazy assumptions about its creation.

    Similarly, I don't really need to find out why that police guy fired at the rodent - there are simple answers we can all guess.
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #22 - August 05, 2020, 03:18 PM
    Quote from: crumble on August 05, 2020, 03:09 PM
    ...........................

    Similarly, I don't really need to find out why that police guy fired at the rodent - there are simple answers we can all guess.


    you are right.. I was parking it because of time constrain ., it moved to its right place....  SO PLEASE READ QURAN... even those alleged ....Meccan surahs
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #23 - May 02, 2021, 10:21 PM
    no, there is no need to read it. in fact, the less it is read the better. engaging on their terms is not the lazy way of doing things.

    Quote from: Ronin on May 14, 2020, 02:41 PM
    The main downside of this is that it allows Muslims to claim that apostasy is either in insignificant numbers or that it doesn't even exist


    the idea is to say nonsense like live and let live - ignoring the shrill voices on either side who talk about islam or apostasy. a social media account and a subversive sense of humour is all you need to bring people onboard  the lazy train.
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #24 - May 03, 2021, 02:00 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on August 05, 2020, 03:18 PM
    you are right........................  SO PLEASE READ QURAN... even those alleged ....Meccan surahs

     I say that and crumble say this
    Quote from: crumble on May 02, 2021, 10:21 PM
    no, there is no need to read it. in fact, the less it is read the better. engaging on their terms is not the lazy way of doing things.
     

     couple of points on your response

    1). I have no idea what you meant by "THEIR TERMS"..   who are they? 
    so I deleted that statement from your post..

    2). I said "please read Quran"  and you say   "no, there is no need to read it." 

    why not?? what is wrong reading book? the reason you must read it is "some of Quran  statements have REAL HISTORY in them ., extracting that real history is more important than reading that book as book that is word of Allah... ...hence there is a need to read it So please read it  ...

    I being an history buff,,, let me watch this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTsqiP196Uw

    that is Dr. Ian Hancock: addressing Keynote Address at Romani Studies Conference, UC Berkeley

    and also read this https://www.oocities.org/romani_life_society/indexpics/HistoryOrigins.pdf

    very interesting historical investigation ., and on that BLASPHEMY IN ISLAM .. let me add this link to you

    Blasphemy origins in Islam

    so that you will know where Islam gets  its Blasphemy business 
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #25 - May 05, 2021, 10:06 PM
    to acknowledge religious identities or read their texts is to empower and legitimise them.

    repeat after me: muslims do not exist and the quran is irrelevant.

    the above attitude allows them to keep their delusions without ceding an inch of public mind space.
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #26 - May 07, 2021, 08:51 PM
    Quote from: crumble on May 05, 2021, 10:06 PM
    to acknowledge religious identities or read their texts is to empower and legitimize them.

    well crumble I agree with you after I delete few words of your posts

    Quote
    repeat after me: muslims do not exist and the quran is irrelevant.

    again same thing., Let me repeat it.,   Muslims do exist and Quran is relevant with reference to their belief and Quran is relevant as one of the oldest  Arabic book of its time.
    Quote
    the above attitude allows them to keep their delusions without ceding an inch of public mind space.

    No............... well .............may be.......

    but educating Muslims as well as non-Muslims on Quran and on the origins of Islam  is an important step to advance humanity and human civilization .. and it also goes to other faiths.. faith heads and their respective religious literature
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #27 - May 07, 2021, 10:11 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on May 07, 2021, 08:51 PM
    but educating Muslims as well as non-Muslims on Quran and on the origins of Islam  is an important step to advance humanity and human civilization ..


    writing or rewriting history is an exercise in creating new dogmas. the past is foreign country, we cannot relive it nor should we try.

    let us instead promote forgetfulness and not seek the myth of progress. no muslims, no non-muslims, only the here and the now.
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #28 - May 07, 2021, 10:24 PM
    hmm, no edit button and writing on a tiny phone screen - I'm surprised I don't make more typos.

    my threatened twitter debut will probably have to wait for a laptop purchase. poor muslimist tweeters will have to wait a bit longer to hear about a better alternative.
  • Apostasy Alternative
     Reply #29 - May 08, 2021, 11:53 AM
    re: history

    just a bit more on this. let's say humans create histories to reassure themselves but the reality is that we are agents of chaos who act without rhyme or reason. this would explain the unending madness you see in others as well yourself. rather than reimagining our past, we may better serve our essential nature by dispensing with it.

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