who said folks/readers do not/did not understand your explanations and reasons dear Mughal?? I think most of them do understand your point of view., But Point out to me your previous posts or write some pointers that you think people did not understand after you explained them .,
I have not seen any Quantum mechanics in your posts that one need to have loaded mathematics background to understand the trade tricks of QM... or may e could be your explanations are inadequate and also it could be some folks like me are dumb .. just plain dumb Not just scientists ., every one and every species has that in-born abilities , intelligence and scientific thought process to analyze a given situation or subject and act according to the best of their abilities., well let me watch these tubes for now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VUHdu_g8okhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQMP74-XziI Thank you dear yeezevee for your interesting reply. The reason I raised the question that I have is, because we need to sort out the fallacy question.
I have explained things on basis of process of elimination which we humans use almost anywhere and everywhere when things are beyond our capability to know something about something with 100% certainty. It saves us time and energy and also brings things within our grasp which are otherwise beyond capability of us human beings.
In my view God does exist and there is a way to find this out to a reasonable degree of certainty. We humans are born scientists because we learn things by way of trial and error or we use trial and error method for our learning because that is the way God has created us. If God has created us this way then why will he give us a book that is irrational? This is why we need to do the very same with alleged God sent book as we do with the universe and things in it ie we must try or use trial and error method for its proper understanding otherwise we are not doing justice to God, his revelation and ourselves. It is this against what God warns us in the quran. That if we will ignore his advised way of life then we will have no life because in that case we will make certainly end up making lives of one another a living end which is right in front of our own very eyes.
Trial and error method kicks in as soon as we open our eyes in this world. We have no idea what is what. Not only about other things but even about our own very selves. We do not know anything about our own bodies or body parts and what they are or what they are for or what they are supposed to do. Gradually we start using our senses eg eyes, ears, noses or tongues or sense of touch or feeling. This is why the saying, practice makes us human beings perfect.
With our senses and rest of our body parts and God given things we start interacting with things or experimenting with things on basis of trial and error method. This is how we gradually learn to figure out things for ourselves about ourselves as well as other things. In order to do that we make countless mistakes along the way till we get hang of things to some degree. In a way the world and things in it acts as our toys for us to play with and learn or find out things. We remain kids always in this world of ours. This is our direct method of learning and we call it our life experience which proves the point that we humans are created as scientists by God for finding out things for ourselves with as much certainty as is humanly possible for us.
Since as individuals we cannot know everything all by ourselves by our direct experience or interaction with things therefore we also use indirect method of learning as well and that is why we ended up building learning institutions such as schools, colleges and universities etc and developed ways of ensuring how to trust or not to trust others. This is where from come our rules of judgement that we use in the court of law for deciding our disputes or disagreements about things. In these institutions we share our direct experiences or experiments with things with each other to widen our knowledge about things and become wiser with help of one another despite being at odds with each other. This is how with time we are getting better and better at learning and doing things.
So for I have fully established the fact that the only way for us to learn things is trial and error method. This is how we learned to use our senses for recognising things with help of our memories. Once we saw a thing the very first time and we remembered it in our heads then if we saw it again, we recognised it. Likewise if we heard a sound and heard it again, we recognised it and so on and so forth.
Likewise when we tried to learn reading or writing, we tried things again and again till we got them right enough to serve our purposes just like learning how to drive a car for example. It was the way we learned how to sit or stand or walk or talk etc etc. It is a time tested method that never failed us and will not fail us so long as we keep using this method rather than accepting things on face value or taking them for granted. Likewise we have been learning from each other always and benefitted from that so much. This is why there should not be any questions against our learning methods or rules of judgement in anyone's mind.
The other thing that need clarification is, we hear people say, follow the evidence and go where it leads. Is this statement true? No, it is not on its own till it is explained a bit and understood properly for what it is really worth. It is because in this case word evidence has two meanings a)an object or thing and b)its explanation. People need to clearly distinguish between these two because each of them plays a very different role.
An object is just an object and does not say anything to us about itself. In this sense evidence cannot lead us anywhere because it goes nowhere to take us with it. It 100% depends upon our own minds how we explain it and only and only that explanation can lead us wherever it takes us. This is why we all follow our own explanations about things wherever they lead us. People have very wrong idea that an evidence on its own is a proof of something. It is not. It is the best possible explanation of the evidence that is the proof. This is how we prove any case in a court of law by putting up our best possible explanations about the available evidences and then the one that is better wins the day.
Let me try and expand this a bit more. Let us say that two people were walking along on a road and they came across a brick wall. One of them says, I see a wall but the other denies it and says, no, there is nothing there. How is the one who says there is a wall going to prove to the other who says there is no wall that there is really a wall in order to convince him? Yes, you are right, he will have to come up with an idea from his head from inside his head to sort out this fellow. This idea is the explanation and it will prove beyond any reasonable doubt that there is actually a brick wall there. So he tells the other fellow bring your head near me and when he gets hold of his head he bangs it into the brick wall. Then he says to him, can you now see there is a really a brick wall there? This is how the evidence and its related proper explanation work together.
Just the evidence or just the explanation do not prove anything at all or lead anywhere. We need something there to start with. if there is nothing there then we do not need any explanation for it either. Explanation only becomes necessary for us if we have something there which needs a sensible explanation for us to understand it the best we can. No explanation is any good unless it help us solves our facing problem or answers our question as best as it is humanly possible. Not only that but any method or explanation that leads us nowhere or remains open ended can destroy us in various ways because it can lead us into hopelessness and boredom or depression. Lack of proper explanation destroys us because to live in the dark or confusion throws us in identity crisis. We need real answers not baseless explanations to live by. This is why our human world is full mentally unstable people who are on anti depressants but they cannot help people if they mentally confused about things. Nothing cure this problem otherwise lots people will not be alcoholic or drug addicts.
It is because we humans have no idea as to how to live in this world properly so we look for happiness in all sorts of wrong ways and in all the wrong places which ruin our lives. Right from the day we are born we need things to keep us amused or entertained. Nothing can entertain us for the whole of our lifetime other than our greed for learning knowledge about the universal realities and revelation of God. We get bored easily. We all need brainwashing or indoctrination or addition otherwise we cannot live our lives. Confusion or mysteries or perplexities or living in the darkness of ignorance kills us. This is why if we will not get addicted or brain washed or indoctrinated the right way then we will become victims of addiction or brainwashing or indoctrination the wrong way. We start programming our minds ourselves and once we become programmed the wrong way then it is very hard to become unwound unless we reach a do or die situations. This is why we need to have a solid foundation to base our learning upon as well as our education system so that we do not end up with nothing at all or nowhere at all.
The purpose of our education should be to unite us (and not divide us) for sake of peace between us on a basis which helps us progress and prosper as a proper human community in the kingdom of God. This is why we need to put our coming generations on the right footing that makes sense and ensures our best possible future. Each and every one running around like headless chicken is no way to live our lives. One only has to look at how people are living and what are their lives based upon. We have a huge group of people in the world with religious mindset, attitude and behaviour and we also have an even bigger group of people who have secular mindset, attitude or behaviour. I have already explained this and the effect or end result or outcome or consequence of all this. This means if we have any sense then we must change our ways of life to a best possible way of life, which is deen of islam. I will try and explain this latter when I start discussing the surahs of the quran in detail to help people see what the real message in the quran is. The quran has nothing to do with battles between mullaans and scientists or philosophers. It is because none of them actually knows what the real message in the quran is for humanity. In our world look at how men treat women and vice versa or how parents treat children and vice versa and how we all treat each other in our wider human society or community. While we have these like situations in our human world people are wasting their time on entertainments instead of trying to find way out of this situation. Men are running after women and vice versa most of the time and wasting their time and energy intsead of doing something useful with their God gifted lives. All because people see no point in their life and living it properly.
Let us now also look at the method called process of elimination. It is used very, very widely eg in all the sciences or fields of knowledge or technology and the reason for that is because it works perfectly for us to help us find out things for ourselves as much as or as far as we possibly can. I used all these methods in my explanations which have been called fallacies. This is why I saw the need for my given explanations to expand them further for better understanding of people as to where I am coming from and why. The reason we need to use this method is because we humans are not omniscient or omnipresent so we cannot know everything there is to know no matter how hard we try. So elimination method helps us overcome our this very limitation to a great extend.
For example, in my posts I already talked about scriptures people claim they are revealed by God. I said in there, only the quran is possible candidate in that case because all other scriptures in the world themselves contradict their followers who say they are God revealed scripture because names of authors of all those scriptures are known and accepted by people themselves who claim them to be God revealed or God inspired. I talked there in as an example the new testament which contains writings by various people instead of God eg matthew, mark, luke or John etc etc. This saves us ample time in studying and wasting our time on those scriptures for this purpose. For other purposes they are highly useful but we need to be sensible enough to be able to use them properly.
So let us see what a doctor does in case of a patent. First of all, no one goes to a doctor till one needs attention of a doctor due to being something wrong with the person. When someone comes to a doctor, the doctor uses elimination method by questioning the patient ie about what brings him to the doctor. The doctor does not start with examining the patient all over for every possible thing which could go wrong with a person first to find out what is wrong with him all by himself because it is a waste of time method. Elimination method saves a lot of time and energy which can be used on doing other useful things. This is how some ideas we humans come up become very helpful for us to solve our problems. Here when doctors asks question of a patient as to what is wrong with the patient, he eliminates all other numberless possibilities. Doctor then starts digging deeper and deeper in order to get closer and closer to the actual problem. I mean through trial and error method we have built up a data base of problems by now eg we know thousands of viral diseases already. We know what a normal human body is and what are its parts so if we see anything that is not supposed to be part of the normal human body then we know it is some kind of foreign element in the body. This is why we compare what we find out with our already existing data base and if it does not already exist in our catalogue then we catalogue it for our future reference or use.
Now I want people to find any fallacies in my these methods and explanations if they can. When I explain things I look at things in various way in order to help people understand the issue under consideration rather than trying to explain the methods I am using. The reason is I assumed people will know these things already. Now at least people should know things if they did not know them before.
Now the issue of God. As explained already, this is how after we are born in this word we witness the universe and things in it and therefore questions rise in our minds where has all this come from and for what purpose and how does it fulfil that purpose etc etc. So we come across the creation as the evidence and the revelation as its explanation allegedly both from God. This is why we must examined them both properly and sincerely to see if that is really true. Here we must apply elimination method because we have no capability of searching out God all by ourselves. Moreover even if there is such a God who has not given us any message to explain things for us then there is no point in searching for such a God who has nothing to do with his creation and creatures. This is why concept of God without concept of revelation is no use for us because it does not solve our problem which is, what is purpose of God for creating us and what we need to do to fulfil that purpose or what is our part in this grand scheme of things as planned by God for us. This is why God concept without revelation of God does not and cannot work. Not only that but any purpose we attribute to God must be in line with our observations of his creation or creatures.
This is why we must come up with an explanation of things that clearly shows to us that it works ie it explains all we need to know about our existence and purpose. How we can come to know this with reasonable certainty? By using the methods I explained just now ie we must start with trial and error method for trying to understand both the alleged creation of God as well as alleged revelation of God. Scientist and philosophers on their own independent of creation and revelation can never explain realities behind these two things. It is due to trial and error method I talked about God of the gaps. Not the way the scientist talk about God because they are completely ignorant of the message of God. This I will prove when I discuss the quranic surahs.
Why God of the gaps is right way to go? Because it is wrong and not only wrong but utmost dangerous to go by first assuming there is no God and then looking for evidences to disprove existence of God. This is going to take humanity forever and meanwhile whatever is happening in the human world is not acceptable ie look at how mankind are putting each other through hell by living senseless and immoral lives. The same problem I have with people who think this world is not real. Such argument are utterly none because what matters for us is, our painful suffering by hands of each other which is absolutely real for us and that is what really matters. We cannot know actual realities of things all by ourselves but by using whatever is in our world and what it does and how it does it we can come up with good enough explanation of things which can make our lives as if we are in paradise in this world with help and full support of each other rather than fighting against each other for our petty personal gains at each other's expense.
How many people in the world are happy with their lives? None. We each have something to bother us. This is why we all need to put aside all scriptures that do not say they are from God and stick to the quran and do our best to decode it for ourselves and our future generations. This is a task no one has touched yet to the degree it needs to be touched.
Here is a question for each and every person on this forum be one muslim or nonmuslim. Please explains why in the quran God advises people to read taooz before starting their reading of the quran? The answer to this question will decide how many and much people really know about the quran. This is particularly for those who say they have read the quran and there is nothing sensible in it.
Regards and all the best.
Topic: Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?