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Theme Changer

 Topic: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?

 (Read 15549 times)
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  • Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     OP - September 28, 2008, 05:54 PM

    Quote
    Look Who's Irrational Now

    "You can't be a rational person six days of the week and put on a suit and make rational decisions and go to work and, on one day of the week, go to a building and think you're drinking the blood of a 2,000-year-old space god," comedian and atheist Bill Maher said earlier this year on "Late Night With Conan O'Brien."

    On the "Saturday Night Live" season debut last week, homeschooling families were portrayed as fundamentalists with bad haircuts who fear biology. Actor Matt Damon recently disparaged Sarah Palin by referring to a transparently fake email that claimed she believed that dinosaurs were Satan's lizards. And according to prominent atheists like Richard Dawkins, traditional religious belief is "dangerously irrational." From Hollywood to the academy, nonbelievers are convinced that a decline in traditional religious belief would lead to a smarter, more scientifically literate and even more civilized populace.

    The reality is that the New Atheist campaign, by discouraging religion, won't create a new group of intelligent, skeptical, enlightened beings. Far from it: It might actually encourage new levels of mass superstition. And that's not a conclusion to take on faith -- it's what the empirical data tell us.

    "What Americans Really Believe," a comprehensive new study released by Baylor University yesterday, shows that traditional Christian religion greatly decreases belief in everything from the efficacy of palm readers to the usefulness of astrology. It also shows that the irreligious and the members of more liberal Protestant denominations, far from being resistant to superstition, tend to be much more likely to believe in the paranormal and in pseudoscience than evangelical Christians.


    The Gallup Organization, under contract to Baylor's Institute for Studies of Religion, asked American adults a series of questions to gauge credulity. Do dreams foretell the future? Did ancient advanced civilizations such as Atlantis exist? Can places be haunted? Is it possible to communicate with the dead? Will creatures like Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster someday be discovered by science?

    The answers were added up to create an index of belief in occult and the paranormal. While 31% of people who never worship expressed strong belief in these things, only 8% of people who attend a house of worship more than once a week did.

    Even among Christians, there were disparities. While 36% of those belonging to the United Church of Christ, Sen. Barack Obama's former denomination, expressed strong beliefs in the paranormal, only 14% of those belonging to the Assemblies of God, Sarah Palin's former denomination, did. In fact, the more traditional and evangelical the respondent, the less likely he was to believe in, for instance, the possibility of communicating with people who are dead.

    This is not a new finding. In his 1983 book "The Whys of a Philosophical Scrivener," skeptic and science writer Martin Gardner cited the decline of traditional religious belief among the better educated as one of the causes for an increase in pseudoscience, cults and superstition. He referenced a 1980 study published in the magazine Skeptical Inquirer that showed irreligious college students to be by far the most likely to embrace paranormal beliefs, while born-again Christian college students were the least likely.

    Surprisingly, while increased church attendance and membership in a conservative denomination has a powerful negative effect on paranormal beliefs, higher education doesn't. Two years ago two professors published another study in Skeptical Inquirer showing that, while less than one-quarter of college freshmen surveyed expressed a general belief in such superstitions as ghosts, psychic healing, haunted houses, demonic possession, clairvoyance and witches, the figure jumped to 31% of college seniors and 34% of graduate students.

    We can't even count on self-described atheists to be strict rationalists. According to the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life's monumental "U.S. Religious Landscape Survey" that was issued in June, 21% of self-proclaimed atheists believe in either a personal God or an impersonal force. Ten percent of atheists pray at least weekly and 12% believe in heaven.

    On Oct. 3, Mr. Maher debuts "Religulous," his documentary that attacks religious belief. He talks to Hasidic scholars, Jews for Jesus, Muslims, polygamists, Satanists, creationists, and even Rael -- prophet of the Raelians -- before telling viewers: "The plain fact is religion must die for man to live."

    But it turns out that the late-night comic is no icon of rationality himself. In fact, he is a fervent advocate of pseudoscience. The night before his performance on Conan O'Brien, Mr. Maher told David Letterman -- a quintuple bypass survivor -- to stop taking the pills that his doctor had prescribed for him. He proudly stated that he didn't accept Western medicine. On his HBO show in 2005, Mr. Maher said: "I don't believe in vaccination. . . . Another theory that I think is flawed, that we go by the Louis Pasteur [germ] theory." He has told CNN's Larry King that he won't take aspirin because he believes it is lethal and that he doesn't even believe the Salk vaccine eradicated polio.

    Anti-religionists such as Mr. Maher bring to mind the assertion of G.K. Chesterton's Father Brown character that all atheists, secularists, humanists and rationalists are susceptible to superstition: "It's the first effect of not believing in God that you lose your common sense, and can't see things as they are."

    Ms. Hemingway is a writer in Washington.

    Source


    Some people who don't believe in god, are only atheists because the gods on offer aren't appealing, that doesn't mean that they are not susceptible to the same weakness of wishing to believe in something more than reality.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #1 - September 28, 2008, 11:58 PM

    Nothing wrong about superstitions for me, the only problems are absurd ones that have been clearly debunked. I.e., saying alhamdillah or god bless you after sneezing.

    \\\\\\\"The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong.\\\\\\\"-Carl Jung
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #2 - September 29, 2008, 02:34 AM

    Some people who don't believe in god, are only atheists because the gods on offer aren't appealing, that doesn't mean that they are not susceptible to the same weakness of wishing to believe in something more than reality.



    I agree. Also, many people (atheists) feel the need to 'fill the void' so they keep looking for something else, which makes eager to believe in other bullshit.

    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #3 - October 10, 2008, 03:01 PM

    Hadn't come across that piece before, BerberElla. Thanks.

    Must say, though, that it surprises me. I've been a strong atheist for half a century and have a lot of contact with other atheists, and I've encountered zero superstition. I'd always taken it as part of the job description that an atheist believes in no gods or, by extension, supernatural influences. And on the odd occasion when the subect of superstition has cropped up, my fellow ungodly heathens seem to be unanimous in this view. We certainly feel no need to replace one form of worthless nonsense with another.

    I'm wondering if there might be some misunderstandng here. Although atheism, I feel, cannot embrace any superstition, that path is still open to agnostics who have not yet ruled out the possibility of supernatural intrusion upon the affairs of man and the cosmos.

    And if Bill Maher has been accurately quoted in that article, I can only say that I'm greatly disappointed by his acceptance of unproven quack medicine in the face of tried and tested modern medical science and must now question his motives for attacking religion so publicly.

    As for the closing Chesterton quote -- what utter codswallop. He could be an entertaining writer, but he really did come out with some terrible tripe at times, didn't he.

    Cheers. Nel

    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #4 - October 10, 2008, 04:10 PM

    Would you say that many self professed atheists are actually agnostic inside?  I believe it to be the case because I had an atheist phase related to teenage anger, but was still superstitious and open to ridiculous new age crap lol

    Then I went back to being a muslim  Roll Eyes.......N E way, my point is that many people who have yet to sit down and go through their thought processes in a rational manner can still label themselves as atheists without actually being one.

    Plus as a teen i didn't even know what an agnostic was, there were believers, satanists and atheists as far as I knew.  You'd be surprised at how unclued up some people can be....or maybe you wouldn't.  Tongue

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #5 - October 10, 2008, 04:52 PM

    ***Would you say that many self professed atheists are actually agnostic inside?***

    Yes. I would, BerberElla. But I'm afraid I'd have to resort to the weary old 'no true Scotsman' argument here to explain why.

    Atheism is always self-professed, but it must be examined closely to discover if it is true atheism or another form of religious rejection. Many 'self-professed atheists' don't really understand the stance they think they are taking. An atheist has no doubts about the non-existence of the supernatural, though an agnostic, whilst declaring a lack of current belief (a-gnostic = without knowedge = don't know) does nurse doubt and is open to the possibility of a creator god or even a real risk of danger when walking under a ladder on Friday 13th.

    You say that you went through an 'atheist phase'. With the best will in the world, you may believe you did, but I don't think so. And from the way you phrased your question and from the last line of your post, I don't think you do either. It sounds to me that you were going through a period of indecision and doubt that expressed itself in a rebellion against religion and its doctrines. You put this down to having realised your atheism, but the very fact that you still clung to superstition suggests you were wrong.

    Many theists attempt to strengthen and dramatise their argument against atheism by claiming to have been atheists themselves before seeing the light. I'm sure you've often come across that. I don't think these claims have any substance. I'm not accusing folks of blatant dishonesty (at least, not in every case), merely of an understandable misunderstanding of atheism. similar to your own as a teen. At most, people who convert from no religion to religion or who take a haitus are agnostic -- doubting and without any declared religious affiliation. Atheists do not convert because there is nothing to convert them.

    A 'true' atheist sees belief in gods and the supernatural, which are so tightly interwoven as to be one in the same animal, as false beyond the shadow of a doubt. A self-professed 'atheist' who allows for any basis in superstition should really examine closely what s/he really feels. I'm sure s/he will -- as you suggest, BerberElla -- discover an agnostic deep inside.

    Agnosticism and the doubt and questioning it involves is a healthy attitude. I make no silly and cheap critiism of 'fence-sitters', but I do think that it is much, much more likely for a thinking agnostic to discover an atheist lurking inside than it would be for a sincere atheist to discover his/her agnosticism.

    Best wishes. Neil


     

    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #6 - October 10, 2008, 04:58 PM

    Quote
    You say that you went through an 'atheist phase'. With the best will in the world, you may believe you did, but I don't think so. And from the way you phrased your question and from the last line of your post, I don't think you do either. It sounds to me that you were going through a period of indecision and doubt that expressed itself in a rebellion against religion and its doctrines. You put this down to having realised your atheism, but the very fact that you still clung to superstition suggests you were wrong.


    Oh, when I described it as an atheist phase, just adding phase to the end of it showed I knew it was never any true atheist stance, just a phase that teens go through with no real understanding of what they are testing out.  A label to go with my rebellion.

    Which is what I was saying, if we looked at the statistics of belief, the amount of real atheists would be less than what the statistics show because many of them would be wearing a label that they hadn't even thought through, either by rebellion or some other reason that prompted them to identify that label to themselves.

    Alot of people I know who called themselves atheists, found out that such a thing as agnoticism existed and realised that the label fit them better.

    Honestly alot of people call themselves something without any rational thought process.

    This article to me merely reflects that, a true atheist, one who understood exactly what the label meant and who wasn't doing it for rebellion etc etc, would not be superstitious.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #7 - October 10, 2008, 05:21 PM

    I suspect you're quite right, BerberElla.

    Of course, this wouldn't really matter much if we were counting beans. I mean, I'm pretty sure there is probably, statistically, the same proportion of those claiming atheism who are actually agnostic as there are folks claiming Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc who are also actually agnostic.

    I think that lack of faith takes as much -- if not much more -- thought than faith itself if it's to be sincere. There are those claiming to belong to one side or the other who are either fooling themselves or others.

    Labels shouldn't count, of course. What matters is that someone's sure he's thought long and hard enough to identify his or her own position -- honestly theist, honestly atheist or honestly undecided.

    Cheers. Neil

    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #8 - October 10, 2008, 07:06 PM

    Good grief, it's difficult to know where to start-in on this rag-bag of an article.
    The main point to be stressed is that atheists don't do belief of any kind: that's the whole point of the name, isn't it?
    The idea that 'traditional religions' are somehow not para-normal and therefore true or legitimate representations of reality is risible.
    Agnostics are clearly people who don't know whether to believe (whatever) or not.
    The main point about belief is that if you do have a strong belief in one persuasion or other then you're going to resist the tendency to believe in something else.
    Give me evidence over belief anytime.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #9 - October 10, 2008, 08:24 PM

    Superstition is more down to lack of control, or of a need to exert control in a way superstitious people can’t achieve in reality.

    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #10 - October 11, 2008, 05:03 AM

    I guess the only difference between religion and more random superstition is that religion tends to be organised, respected and universally encouraged, whereas superstitions are -- on the surface, at least -- taken with a pinch of salt by society and openly sniggered at.

    But really, there's nothing to distinguish one supernatural claim from another. Is a belief in flying horses and talking donkeys any less crazy than a belief in the demonic powers of black cats or the suspension of the laws of physics to make number 13 Smith Street more vulnerable to lightning strikes than number 15?

    It's all irrational nonsense, undermines common sense and should make all mankind  -- the only species with the abilty to understand its universe -- blush deep red in shame.

    Neil

    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #11 - October 11, 2008, 12:20 PM

    I guess the only difference between religion and more random superstition is that religion tends to be organised, respected and universally encouraged, whereas superstitions are -- on the surface, at least -- taken with a pinch of salt by society and openly sniggered at.

    But really, there's nothing to distinguish one supernatural claim from another. Is a belief in flying horses and talking donkeys any less crazy than a belief in the demonic powers of black cats or the suspension of the laws of physics to make number 13 Smith Street more vulnerable to lightning strikes than number 15?

    It's all irrational nonsense, undermines common sense and should make all mankind  -- the only species with the abilty to understand its universe -- blush deep red in shame.

    Neil


    Also, traditionally "superstitious" people are less likely to pick a fight with you over their superstition than "religious" people will.  Maybe something to do with safety in numbers.

  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #12 - October 11, 2008, 12:30 PM

    Yep, Assmodeus. The idntifiably religious have more organised support for their delusions. Seriously, though. There ain't no difference between superstition and religion. The two expressions of irrationality are mutually supportive and mutually necessary to a supernatural mindset. Give me a common superstition that isn't rooted in religious tradition (or vice versa) and I'll give you a shrub that isn't rooted in the ground it feeds off. Neil

    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #13 - October 11, 2008, 12:51 PM

    Yep, Assmodeus. The idntifiably religious have more organised support for their delusions. Seriously, though. There ain't no difference between superstition and religion. The two expressions of irrationality are mutually supportive and mutually necessary to a supernatural mindset. Give me a common superstition that isn't rooted in religious tradition (or vice versa) and I'll give you a shrub that isn't rooted in the ground it feeds off. Neil

    Now you come to mention it Neil, magpies - 'one for sorrow, two for joy,' etc:  where did that come from. As a Scot, you might be able to tell me.
    A good Scots friend of mine used to shudder, cross himself (although he never professed any religion) and automatically used to recite 'Good morning Mr. Magpie, and how's your wife', whenever we saw one on the way to work.
    When I used to point out that there were actually 2,3,4,5,6 or even 7 if you looked carefully enough, his reply was invariably, 'Shut the fuck up and put your foot down ya fuckin' chuchter!', whilst holding his breath , going red in the face and crossing himself with some degree of violence.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #14 - October 11, 2008, 03:44 PM

    You've piqued my interest, Sojournalumus, and I'll have to find out more.

    Off the top of my head, though, I would think it would have something to do with the ancient belief that brds are messengers: The white dove that brought back news of a reborn earth to Noah after the black raven had failed to return from a universal sea of death, the god in dove's form that spoke at the baptism of Christ, the clay birds the Koran claims Jesus transformed into lords of the sky, pesumably spreading his message to the four corners of the earth.

    Perhaps this might also go back further to unformed superstitions -- carrion birds and others that prey on death tend to be dark, we eat light-feathered birds. Certainly the notion in Scotland that crows (corbies [from the Old French corbu]) are heralds of death goes back to Pictish or at least Celtic, pre-Christian times. Ravens at the Tower of London are supposedly dark guardians of the fort; their disappearance will spell disaster, we have been told for five hundred years.

    Quite honestly, I don't know yet (especially with magpies being black and white). But I'll betcha the next round there is a religious connection in the famous magpie ditty somewhere. Another little rhyme taught to children to chip away at their natural common sense and instill a belief in the supernatural.

    Thanks for food for thought. Cheers. Neil

    PS:It's good to know you keep the fine company of distinguished linguists and masters of folk lore. N

    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #15 - October 11, 2008, 05:35 PM

    Well, I did Neil. Davy Martin's been dead these 15 years, bless him.

    Piqued or tweaked, you've got me interested now. It seems that Raven pinned the earth into place and made the air in the Inuit creation myth.
    I've just googled loads of Magpie stuff. They're good luck in some parts of the world, esp. China.
    The superstn. origins seem to veer between the religious and just plain bad luck in the west.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #16 - October 11, 2008, 06:17 PM

    Yep, it seems that it's an ill wind that doesn't blow someone some good. Many of the same portents are viewed as good or bad depending where you are in the world (another reason that they're utter codswallop). The position of a hanging horseshoe, the number thirteen, the black cat, sneezing three times, an albatross following a ship, green eyes, many other every-day superstitions herald good or bad luck depending on geography. Neil

    PS: Sorry to hear Davy's not around any more, Sojourn. Sounds lke a fun character. I'm sure he said 'teuchter', though, rather than 'chuchter'. (Forgive me an unwarranted nit-pick -- we Scots are notoriously thin-skinned out a language hardly anyone speaks any more). Best. N

    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #17 - October 11, 2008, 08:08 PM

    Yep, it seems that it's an ill wind that doesn't blow someone some good. Many of the same portents are viewed as good or bad depending where you are in the world (another reason that they're utter codswallop). The position of a hanging horseshoe, the number thirteen, the black cat, sneezing three times, an albatross following a ship, green eyes, many other every-day superstitions herald good or bad luck depending on geography. Neil

    PS: Sorry to hear Davy's not around any more, Sojourn. Sounds lke a fun character. I'm sure he said 'teuchter', though, rather than 'chuchter'. (Forgive me an unwarranted nit-pick -- we Scots are notoriously thin-skinned out a language hardly anyone speaks any more). Best. N

    Thanks, I've never seen the spelling of that before.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #18 - October 16, 2008, 05:41 PM

    Quote from: Berberella
    Some people who don't believe in god, are only atheists because the gods on offer aren't appealing, that doesn't mean that they are not susceptible to the same weakness of wishing to believe in something more than reality.


    Why should this be considered a weakness?


    Why should this tendancy exist at all if it's a weakness?

    Cheers,
    sparky
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #19 - October 16, 2008, 08:22 PM

    Quote from: Berberella
    Some people who don't believe in god, are only atheists because the gods on offer aren't appealing, that doesn't mean that they are not susceptible to the same weakness of wishing to believe in something more than reality.


    Why should this be considered a weakness?


    Why should this tendancy exist at all if it's a weakness?

    Cheers,
    sparky

    Oh this is utterly beautiful. So Sparky, are you saying that "weaknesses" cannot exist? grin12

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #20 - October 16, 2008, 10:24 PM

    Quote from: Berberella
    Some people who don't believe in god, are only atheists because the gods on offer aren't appealing, that doesn't mean that they are not susceptible to the same weakness of wishing to believe in something more than reality.


    Why should this be considered a weakness?


    Why should this tendancy exist at all if it's a weakness?

    Cheers,
    sparky

    Oh this is utterly beautiful. So Sparky, are you saying that "weaknesses" cannot exist? grin12

    Thanks Oz, you took the words right out of my mouth. Sparky obviously has not been exposed to the concept of a weakness masquerading as an ultimate strength. And that for a thing to exist at all, it obviously has a survival value and therefore confers an evolutionary advantage.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #21 - October 17, 2008, 03:29 PM

    Quote from: Berberella
    Some people who don't believe in god, are only atheists because the gods on offer aren't appealing, that doesn't mean that they are not susceptible to the same weakness of wishing to believe in something more than reality.


    Why should this be considered a weakness?


    Why should this tendancy exist at all if it's a weakness?

    Cheers,
    sparky

    Oh this is utterly beautiful. So Sparky, are you saying that "weaknesses" cannot exist? grin12

    Thanks Oz, you took the words right out of my mouth. Sparky obviously has not been exposed to the concept of a weakness masquerading as an ultimate strength. And that for a thing to exist at all, it obviously has a survival value and therefore confers an evolutionary advantage.


    So it's not really a weakness at all - when measured against the goal of survival?  If so, what does Berb's mean by calling it a 'weakness'?  What is she measuring against?
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #22 - October 17, 2008, 06:53 PM

    Survival isn't a goal,  it's an outcome.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #23 - October 18, 2008, 05:34 AM

    Survival isn't a goal,  it's an outcome.


    I don't see why it can't be both.  But the question remains as to why a tendency to believe in superstition should be considered a weakness.
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #24 - October 18, 2008, 10:18 AM

    Survival isn't a goal,  it's an outcome.


    I don't see why it can't be both.  But the question remains as to why a tendency to believe in superstition should be considered a weakness.


    Because its a misfiring of a mechanism that is intended for something more useful.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #25 - October 18, 2008, 10:43 AM

    Survival isn't a goal,  it's an outcome.


    I don't see why it can't be both.  But the question remains as to why a tendency to believe in superstition should be considered a weakness.

    Well, it's not so much a weakness as an attempt to create order out of seeming randomness, which in itself can have some survival value in some circumstances: like not walking under ladders , say. So you eventually manufacture a rule about behaviour that says 'behave like this and you'll stay safe'. However, nobody seems to keep statistics about whether this kind of thing works or not and superstitions often get nobbled (like religious festivals)
    by people who want to use them for other ends, and then the meaning gets lost.
    Today, in industry we hold 'safety circles', inquests into causes, after accidents take place and we come up with reasoned solutions that say 'behave like this and you'll stay safe'. Safety rulles have to be revised as they become redundant for different reasons.  This is just one example.

    The idea of survival being an outcome and not a goal is well documented and my favourite example is this:
    The biggest volcanic eruption of the 20th century was Montagne Pelee in Martinique, W Indies. In 1902 it erupted with terrific force killing almost all 40000 islanders. There were 3 documented survivors, one of whom, Ludger Sylbaris, had been chucked into an underground, solitary isolation cell in the town hoosegow, on account of his extreme violence the night before. His unwanted situation led to him being spared from the pyroclastic flow.
    So although he was saved by a  'goal', it was not a wished-for one.

    I've just seen Cheetah's reply but I'll go with this as a somewhat lengthier supplement.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #26 - October 18, 2008, 12:01 PM

    Survival isn't a goal,  it's an outcome.


    I don't see why it can't be both.  But the question remains as to why a tendency to believe in superstition should be considered a weakness.


    Because its a misfiring of a mechanism that is intended for something more useful.

    Intended? By who?

    And what is your evidence that it is misfiring?  What was it 'intended' for?
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #27 - October 18, 2008, 01:15 PM

    Sojournerlumus already answered the two sensible questions you asked in the post above yours.  As for the silly question you asked - well, as long as it keeps you from preying on children, I don't really care who you convince yourself it was intended by.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #28 - October 18, 2008, 03:38 PM

    Quote from: sojournerlumus
    Well, it's not so much a weakness as an attempt to create order out of seeming randomness, which in itself can have some survival value in some circumstances: like not walking under ladders , say. So you eventually manufacture a rule about behaviour that says 'behave like this and you'll stay safe'. However, nobody seems to keep statistics about whether this kind of thing works or not and superstitions often get nobbled (like religious festivals)
    by people who want to use them for other ends, and then the meaning gets lost.
    Today, in industry we hold 'safety circles', inquests into causes, after accidents take place and we come up with reasoned solutions that say 'behave like this and you'll stay safe'. Safety rulles have to be revised as they become redundant for different reasons.  This is just one example.


    So not a weakness then.

    Quote
    The idea of survival being an outcome and not a goal is well documented and my favourite example is this:
    The biggest volcanic eruption of the 20th century was Montagne Pelee in Martinique, W Indies. In 1902 it erupted with terrific force killing almost all 40000 islanders. There were 3 documented survivors, one of whom, Ludger Sylbaris, had been chucked into an underground, solitary isolation cell in the town hoosegow, on account of his extreme violence the night before. His unwanted situation led to him being spared from the pyroclastic flow.
    So although he was saved by a  'goal', it was not a wished-for one.

    Are you saying he didn't want to survive?  If he wanted to, then he achieved his goal - even though its existence as a goal didn't have anything to do with the outcome.  In other circumstances - such as training to be able to defend himself against attack - the goal might have influenced his behaviour and made all the difference.
  • Re: Atheists more likely to believe in superstition?
     Reply #29 - October 18, 2008, 03:51 PM

    Sojournerlumus already answered the two sensible questions you asked in the post above yours.  As for the silly question you asked - well, as long as it keeps you from preying on children, I don't really care who you convince yourself it was intended by.

    If you don't want stupid questions, choose your words more carefully.  Loose talk might mislead atheists and we wouldn't want that, would we?

    And, as far as I can see, S..'s explanation completely contradicts you.  Survival is a 'useful' goal, the tendency to believe in the supernatural can increase survival chances, you have no way to determine which supernatural beliefs might increase survival chances, therefore you have no evidence for regarding any as 'weaknesses' or 'misfiring'.
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