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 Topic: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.

 (Read 41008 times)
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  • Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     OP - October 15, 2008, 09:25 AM

    As a believer I spent the better part of that belief putting many things to the back of my mind because they could not be answered by religion to my satisfaction.

    1 - God allows evil to take place on a daily basis

    2 - God allows deformity, disabilities and death to take the lives of our children and family day in and day out

    3 - How god decides which souls deserve being born rich and which deserve being born poor.


    "god has a plan that the human mind can not comprehend" has to be one of the biggest cop outs, and even if he does have a plan, that plan is still evil when seen through my eyes.  If god did exist why would I wish to worship a creature that allows evil to exist when he/she/it has the power to stop it? 

    Yet if you take god out of the equation you are left with random things happening, with no evil hand behind it, no god to blame, just human nature.  No god is sitting up there saying "John will be born to wealth, John will have a happy life, John will never know abuse or hunger" however "Mary will be born poor, she will be raped as a child, she will become a prostitute when she grows up to feed her kids and pay her bills, and when she dies she will go to hell"

    It's just random and no one can be held accountable for it and that makes much more sense than worshipping a god that makes those kind of judgement calls.

    Why does the world make more sense with god out of the equation to you or vice versa?

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #1 - October 15, 2008, 09:53 AM

    God doesn't just allow evil things to happen to good people, he also creates things that are evil by their nature.  Like the Ebola virus.  What's the point of that, then?  Why did god make it?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #2 - October 15, 2008, 09:57 AM

    God doesn't just allow evil things to happen to good people, he also creates things that are evil by their nature.  Like the Ebola virus.  What's the point of that, then?  Why did god make it?


    Well it's all part of god's plan Cheet, we could never understand.  parrot

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #3 - October 17, 2008, 04:07 PM

    God doesn't just allow evil things to happen to good people, he also creates things that are evil by their nature.  Like the Ebola virus.  What's the point of that, then?  Why did god make it?


    Well it's all part of god's plan Cheet, we could never understand.  parrot


    If I had a cent for everytime I heard that, I would be so frickin' rich!

    I really do wish I got a cent for everytime I heard that.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #4 - October 17, 2008, 04:08 PM

    Quote
    It's just random and no one can be held accountable for it and that makes much more sense than worshipping a god that makes those kind of judgement calls.


    If there is no God, then evil doesn't exist at all.  There are only things that you like and things that you don't like.  You may like chocolate ice cream, someone else may like preying on children.  I'm amazed to hear that you think that makes more sense.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #5 - October 17, 2008, 04:12 PM

    Quote
    It's just random and no one can be held accountable for it and that makes much more sense than worshipping a god that makes those kind of judgement calls.


    If there is no God, then evil doesn't exist at all.  There are only things that you like and things that you don't like.  You may like chocolate ice cream, someone else may like preying on children.  I'm amazed to hear that you think that makes more sense.


    Someone else likes preying on children because they have a psychological disorder of some kind, NOT because they are full of evil and the devil.  Something wrong in the mind, something that one day science, and not religion, will fix.  I'm amazed that your amazed that I think it makes more sense.  Wink

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #6 - October 17, 2008, 04:27 PM

    Quote
    It's just random and no one can be held accountable for it and that makes much more sense than worshipping a god that makes those kind of judgement calls.


    If there is no God, then evil doesn't exist at all.  There are only things that you like and things that you don't like.  You may like chocolate ice cream, someone else may like preying on children.  I'm amazed to hear that you think that makes more sense.


    Someone else likes preying on children because they have a psychological disorder of some kind, NOT because they are full of evil and the devil.  Something wrong in the mind, something that one day science, and not religion, will fix.  I'm amazed that your amazed that I think it makes more sense.  Wink

    Hey, maybe we can find scientific fixes for those psychos who like chocolate too.  But glad to see you agree that evil doesn't exist if there is no God.  Just a random variety of behaviours determined by a random selection of genes/chemicals/societal influences that one group classifies for another.  I can't wait for the day that science is ready to fix that other pyschological 'weakness' you were talking about - the tendency to believe in the supernatural - that seems to afflict atheists in such large numbers. Let's hope the religious don't get hold of the science first or it might be you getting fixed!  It's such a slippery slope to militancy isn't it?

    What an absurd world you live in.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #7 - October 17, 2008, 04:35 PM


    Hey, maybe we can find scientific fixes for those psychos who like chocolate too. 


    Well at least it wouldn;t be me getting fixed, I loathe and detest the taste of chocolate.  bunny

    Quote

     But glad to see you agree that evil doesn't exist if there is no God. 


    Sparky where did I ever say it did?  I merely pointed out that it would no longer be thanks to a god letting a devil run free to corrupt and make people evil.  Not that evil would suddenly cease to exist.

    Quote

    Just a random variety of behaviours determined by a random selection of genes/chemicals/societal influences that one group classifies for another. 


    You use kiddy fiddling to make me say one thing, then go "oh wow, now I guess even chocolate, or anything totally minute is off the list, lord save me".  Please stick to using a modicum of common sense or it comes across as ridiculous and pointless.

    Quote

     I can't wait for the day that science is ready to fix that other pyschological 'weakness' you were talking about - the tendency to believe in the supernatural - that seems to afflict atheists in such large numbers.


    Oh dear, yet another exaggeration.

    Quote

    Let's hope the religious don't get hold of the science first or it might be you getting fixed!  It's such a slippery slope to militancy isn't it?



    And here it goes again "oh wow, she said science might fix kiddy fiddlers, she must want to get everyone fixed bit by bit"

    Quote
    What an absurd world you live in.


    It is an absurd world, full of people who make ridiculous slippery slope arguements to prevent even the smallest of changes, stuck in the mud people who want to praise the lord and wait for the flying spaghetti monster to come and save them rather than work to saving themselves.

    Damn right it's absurd.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #8 - October 17, 2008, 04:50 PM

    Quote from: Berbs
    Sparky where did I ever say it did?  I merely pointed out that it would no longer be thanks to a god letting a devil run free to corrupt and make people evil.  Not that evil would suddenly cease to exist.


    I took your reclassification of a behaviour that is generally thought of as 'evil' into just the result of a mind-malfunction as agreeing that evil doesn't exist.  If you think evil does exist, what is your evidence?

    Quote from: Berbs
    You use kiddy fiddling to make me say one thing, then go "oh wow, now I guess even chocolate, or anything totally minute is off the list, lord save me".  Please stick to using a modicum of common sense or it comes across as ridiculous and pointless.


    I didn't make you say anything.  Your absolution of those who prey on children was all your own.  And no, the point was not that something minute is off the list - it's that there is no list unless you can provide some evidence for why some behaviours should be classified as evil and others not.  The point of using 'chocolate' is to show the implication of a worldview where all classification of behaviours is only the result of your own preferences and not a comparison to a standard that exists outside of your own mind.

    Quote from: Berbs
    Quote from: sparky
    I can't wait for the day that science is ready to fix that other pyschological 'weakness' you were talking about - the tendency to believe in the supernatural - that seems to afflict atheists in such large numbers.

     

    Oh dear, yet another exaggeration.


    How so?  You have referred to the tendency to prey on children as the result of a problem (i.e. weakness) of the mind.  You have also referred to the tendency to believe in superstition as a weakness (i.e. problem) of the mind.  Why should one problem be fixed and not the other?

    Quote from: Berbs
    Quote from: sparky
    Let's hope the religious don't get hold of the science first or it might be you getting fixed!  It's such a slippery slope to militancy isn't it?


    And here it goes again "oh wow, she said science might fix kiddy fiddlers, she must want to get everyone fixed bit by bit"


    Not at all.  I was just assuming that you wanted problems to be fixed if they could.  Don't you?  I just wonder where you think your (rather amazing) faith in science to solve behavioural problems leaves human responsibility.  You whole line of argument here very much validates the fact that you don't believe evil really exists at all - which of course is the logical result of your chosen worldview.

    I was also hoping to highlight the danger of assuming that it will be only the behaviours that you don't like that will be fixed.  It just depends on who has the power when it happens!

    Quote from: Berbs
    Quote from: sparky
    What an absurd world you live in.

    It is an absurd world, full of people who make ridiculous slippery slope arguements to prevent even the smallest of changes, stuck in the mud people who want to praise the lord and wait for the flying spaghetti monster to come and save them rather than work to saving themselves.


    I have no idea what you are talking about here.  But I wonder if you have really faced the implications of your new-found worldview.  Frankly, I think a world without good and evil really is absurd.  In fact, I think you really think so too but just haven't considered that in ejecting God from the picture that's what you end up with.

    Cheers,
    sparky
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #9 - October 17, 2008, 05:23 PM

    Quote
    I didn't make you say anything.  Your absolution of those who prey on children was all your own.  And no, the point was not that something minute is off the list - it's that there is no list unless you can provide some evidence for why some behaviours should be classified as evil and others not.  The point of using 'chocolate' is to show the implication of a worldview where all classification of behaviours is only the result of your own preferences and not a comparison to a standard that exists outside of your own mind.


    The difference, of course, is that those who prey on children damage other peoples' lives.  Eating chocolate, unless done to such excess that it damages your health, harms nobody.

    And obviously we need a classification of behaviour over and above what exists as a personal preference in our own minds if society is to function.  That doesn't necessarily mean that the classification has to have a supernatural basis.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #10 - October 17, 2008, 05:29 PM

    I'm a chocoholic.

    Does that make me a terrible person  Cry







     cool2
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #11 - October 17, 2008, 06:47 PM

    Quote
    It's just random and no one can be held accountable for it and that makes much more sense than worshipping a god that makes those kind of judgement calls.


    If there is no God, then evil doesn't exist at all.  There are only things that you like and things that you don't like.  You may like chocolate ice cream, someone else may like preying on children.  I'm amazed to hear that you think that makes more sense.


    Someone else likes preying on children because they have a psychological disorder of some kind, NOT because they are full of evil and the devil.  Something wrong in the mind, something that one day science, and not religion, will fix.  I'm amazed that your amazed that I think it makes more sense.  Wink

    Hey, maybe we can find scientific fixes for those psychos who like chocolate too.  But glad to see you agree that evil doesn't exist if there is no God.  Just a random variety of behaviours determined by a random selection of genes/chemicals/societal influences that one group classifies for another.  I can't wait for the day that science is ready to fix that other pyschological 'weakness' you were talking about - the tendency to believe in the supernatural - that seems to afflict atheists in such large numbers. Let's hope the religious don't get hold of the science first or it might be you getting fixed!  It's such a slippery slope to militancy isn't it?

    What an absurd world you live in.

    You got the first bit about right BUT Science doesn't fix things, it discovers them. Athiests don't believe in anything, we look for evidence. And no, religious people will not get hold of 'the science' because all they do is futile prayer - scientists do science.
    You might be a spin doctor in your day job but this is the CEMB forum.

    Who's absurd?

    PS I just love chocolate.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #12 - October 18, 2008, 05:59 AM

    Quote from: sparky
    I didn't make you say anything.  Your absolution of those who prey on children was all your own.  And no, the point was not that something minute is off the list - it's that there is no list unless you can provide some evidence for why some behaviours should be classified as evil and others not.  The point of using 'chocolate' is to show the implication of a worldview where all classification of behaviours is only the result of your own preferences and not a comparison to a standard that exists outside of your own mind.


    The difference, of course, is that those who prey on children damage other peoples' lives.  Eating chocolate, unless done to such excess that it damages your health, harms nobody.


    So what?  You happen not to like hurting other people, others don't mind so much.  They are still both just preferences, neither more nor less.  There is no basis in reality for classifying one as 'evil' or 'bad' and another as not so you can provide no evidence for your claim.

    Quote from: Cheetah
    And obviously we need a classification of behaviour over and above what exists as a personal preference in our own minds if society is to function.  That doesn't necessarily mean that the classification has to have a supernatural basis.

    Where to start with this paragraph?

    1.  Why should 'society' 'function'?  How is this any more than just another personal preference of yours?
    2.  Who decides when a society is functioning successfully and what is the measure of this?
    3.  Given that societies have and do 'function' with markedly different rules than might exist in your society, you will agree that any classification that you have adopted would be 'right/wrong' or 'good/evil' for your society alone?  In which case, I assume you have no problem with a village in Iraq stoning a girl from the community for meeting with a boy.

    You, yourself applied the word 'evil' to the ebola virus.  How is this a behaviour at all such that it could be classified in any society as 'evil' or you including non-human behaviours in your classification?

    Cheers,
    sparky
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #13 - October 18, 2008, 06:06 AM

    Quote
    It's just random and no one can be held accountable for it and that makes much more sense than worshipping a god that makes those kind of judgement calls.


    If there is no God, then evil doesn't exist at all.  There are only things that you like and things that you don't like.  You may like chocolate ice cream, someone else may like preying on children.  I'm amazed to hear that you think that makes more sense.


    Someone else likes preying on children because they have a psychological disorder of some kind, NOT because they are full of evil and the devil.  Something wrong in the mind, something that one day science, and not religion, will fix.  I'm amazed that your amazed that I think it makes more sense.  Wink

    Hey, maybe we can find scientific fixes for those psychos who like chocolate too.  But glad to see you agree that evil doesn't exist if there is no God.  Just a random variety of behaviours determined by a random selection of genes/chemicals/societal influences that one group classifies for another.  I can't wait for the day that science is ready to fix that other pyschological 'weakness' you were talking about - the tendency to believe in the supernatural - that seems to afflict atheists in such large numbers. Let's hope the religious don't get hold of the science first or it might be you getting fixed!  It's such a slippery slope to militancy isn't it?

    What an absurd world you live in.

    You got the first bit about right BUT Science doesn't fix things, it discovers them. Athiests don't believe in anything, we look for evidence. And no, religious people will not get hold of 'the science' because all they do is futile prayer - scientists do science.
    You might be a spin doctor in your day job but this is the CEMB forum.

    Who's absurd?

    PS I just love chocolate.

    Hey take it up with Berbs.  It was her idea that science would one day 'fix' those who prey on children.
    And give me a break with the generalisations about atheists.  The OP pretty much killed that idea.  And getting 'hold' of the science is absolutely nothing to do with doing it - it's about power which the religious seem to have done a fairly good job of possessing.

    And I didn't say anyone was absurd.  I said the world Berb's seems to live in is absurd.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #14 - October 18, 2008, 10:23 AM

    Quote
    So what?  You happen not to like hurting other people, others don't mind so much.  They are still both just preferences, neither more nor less.


    If that's really what you think, then I hope you stay religious.  Some people cannot stay within the boundaries of decent behaviour without believing in a supernatural CCTV constantly looking over their shoulder. Its pathetic, but I suppose its one of those weird things that human nature throws up from time to time.


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #15 - October 18, 2008, 10:32 AM

    Quote
    So what?  You happen not to like hurting other people, others don't mind so much.  They are still both just preferences, neither more nor less.


    If that's really what you think, then I hope you stay religious.  Some people cannot stay within the boundaries of decent behaviour without believing in a supernatural CCTV constantly looking over their shoulder. Its pathetic, but I suppose its one of those weird things that human nature throws up from time to time.




    Honestly it's that attitude of sparkys that makes me unable to muster up the patience to explain myself to him, because he is one of those people who thinks religion is the ONLY thing that can be used to decide decent behaviour.   It's used to baffle me when my ex used to say that too, that without religion people would be allowed to do what they want because without god judging them people would have no moral compass in which to steer themselves with.   Roll Eyes

    Poor things, can you imagine what it must be like to live like that?  to know that deep down you are so depraved that if you no longer feared god's displeasure you would do so many bad things?   wacko


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #16 - October 18, 2008, 10:48 AM

    Quote
    It's just random and no one can be held accountable for it and that makes much more sense than worshipping a god that makes those kind of judgement calls.


    If there is no God, then evil doesn't exist at all.  There are only things that you like and things that you don't like.  You may like chocolate ice cream, someone else may like preying on children.  I'm amazed to hear that you think that makes more sense.


    Someone else likes preying on children because they have a psychological disorder of some kind, NOT because they are full of evil and the devil.  Something wrong in the mind, something that one day science, and not religion, will fix.  I'm amazed that your amazed that I think it makes more sense.  Wink

    Hey, maybe we can find scientific fixes for those psychos who like chocolate too.  But glad to see you agree that evil doesn't exist if there is no God.  Just a random variety of behaviours determined by a random selection of genes/chemicals/societal influences that one group classifies for another.  I can't wait for the day that science is ready to fix that other pyschological 'weakness' you were talking about - the tendency to believe in the supernatural - that seems to afflict atheists in such large numbers. Let's hope the religious don't get hold of the science first or it might be you getting fixed!  It's such a slippery slope to militancy isn't it?

    What an absurd world you live in.

    You got the first bit about right BUT Science doesn't fix things, it discovers them. Athiests don't believe in anything, we look for evidence. And no, religious people will not get hold of 'the science' because all they do is futile prayer - scientists do science.
    You might be a spin doctor in your day job but this is the CEMB forum.

    Who's absurd?

    PS I just love chocolate.

    Hey take it up with Berbs.  It was her idea that science would one day 'fix' those who prey on children.
    And give me a break with the generalisations about atheists.  The OP pretty much killed that idea.  And getting 'hold' of the science is absolutely nothing to do with doing it - it's about power which the religious seem to have done a fairly good job of possessing.

    And I didn't say anyone was absurd.  I said the world Berb's seems to live in is absurd.

    I think you're pissing with the semantics again. It won't wash.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #17 - October 21, 2008, 11:10 AM

    I found the world made much less sense without God. Maybe the idea has been ingrained in me for so long, but life does feel incredibly empty and meaningless sometimes, when I take God out of the equation.

    As a believer, I never had a problem with the existence of evil. Evil necessarily existed so we could distinguish good.

    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #18 - October 21, 2008, 11:43 AM

    I found the world made much less sense without God. Maybe the idea has been ingrained in me for so long, but life does feel incredibly empty and meaningless sometimes, when I take God out of the equation.

    As a believer, I never had a problem with the existence of evil. Evil necessarily existed so we could distinguish good.


    I can definately relate to that. I'm sure a lot of people in your situation and mine could.

    I'm slowly trying to swallow that nothing will happen to me once I die.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #19 - October 21, 2008, 12:02 PM


    I'm slowly trying to swallow that nothing will happen to me once I die.


    Why not just slowly try to swallow that you haven't got a clue what happens when we die? I think it's a more useful approach, no? (actually, I think there are a lot of clues, but sifting through the evidence just takes you round in circles - may aswell agree to not know rather than bank on one or the other.)

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #20 - October 21, 2008, 12:07 PM


    I'm slowly trying to swallow that nothing will happen to me once I die.


    Why not just slowly try to swallow that you haven't got a clue what happens when we die? I think it's a more useful approach, no? (actually, I think there are a lot of clues, but sifting through the evidence just takes you round in circles - may aswell agree to not know rather than bank on one or the other.)


    That's a very good point. Sifting through evidence is in my nature though  Wink
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #21 - October 21, 2008, 12:41 PM

    I found the world made much less sense without God. Maybe the idea has been ingrained in me for so long, but life does feel incredibly empty and meaningless sometimes, when I take God out of the equation.

    As a believer, I never had a problem with the existence of evil. Evil necessarily existed so we could distinguish good.


    It still feels that way to me too, just because the world makes more sense without god on a rational level doesn't mean that my emotional need to believe in something more has faded.

    Life IS meaningless if there is no order to the random pattern that dictates life and how people live it, however the need for order to the randomness is only driven by an emotional need, rationality dictates that god does not exist and that life is random chaos no matter how much desire wishes for something more.

    So how did you rationalise god allowing children to die from birth defects, disabilities and abuse?  How did you rationalise god making some people rich and some people poor, some people pretty and some people ugly? Those small things make a HUGE difference in the life quiality and decisions that human will make, and those life decisions will be what god uses to determine who is good and who deserves hell.  The rational behind that was something I mused over often yet shoved to the back of my mind as being beyond my understanding.  and yet remove god from the picture and you are left with something that makes sense. 

    Rondomness, no meaning, it just happens, that is eaiser to understand.




    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #22 - October 21, 2008, 05:57 PM

    Well bad things happening to people, I understood in perspective. Eg. if I believed in an afterlife, it didn't matter how rich or poor you were, we were all going to end up with nothing but our good actions. Same goes for how healthy or sick you are and so on. All that mattered was that we were going to be judged about what good we could do within our CAPACITY. So if you were crippled, you couldn't run a marathon and raise heaps of money, but that doesn't mean the healthy person would get more reward than you simply because he has legs; it wouldn't be fair for you to be judged on the same criteria when you have different advantages.

    Nothing actually seemed unfair with god in the picture: if you had a shitty life it didn't matter as this world was not meant to be the real and lasting one, and so on.

    But now, without god, it's random, meaningless slush. I mean what the hell is the point? I really don't know.

    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #23 - October 21, 2008, 06:08 PM

    All that mattered was that we were going to be judged about what good we could do within our CAPACITY. So if you were crippled, you couldn't run a marathon and raise heaps of money, but that doesn't mean the healthy person would get more reward than you simply because he has legs; it wouldn't be fair for you to be judged on the same criteria when you have different advantages.



    So you say, but lets say:

     you have a poor girl, who is sexually abused by the men in her family, she goes on damaged mentally to have random sex with anyone because it's all she thinks she is worth.  She has sex before she is married ( a non no in all abrahamic religions) willingly with whoever she can.  She does drugs to numb the pain, she drinks to numb the memories. She dies like that.

    You have another girl who is born safe, raised kindly, has money, has an easy life.  Hardest thing she ever had to do was miss out on the prom, she dies like that.

    Why are both judged equally?   God has a plan, a reason behind everything he allows according to religion, what reason could there possibly be for allowing one life to be judged the same as another when each life is different?

    If god sends people to hell for infractions that can be a direct result of abuse, then doesn't it make more sense that randomness is behind and not some gods plan?




    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #24 - October 21, 2008, 06:49 PM

    Actually, if you had given me that scenario even as believer, I would have taken the unorthodox approach and said the first girl might even get more reward than the second because she had suffered more.

    I know most Muslims wouldn't agree. Maybe that's why I left the lot of them.

    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #25 - October 21, 2008, 07:00 PM

    Actually, if you had given me that scenario even as believer, I would have taken the unorthodox approach and said the first girl might even get more reward than the second because she had suffered more.

    I know most Muslims wouldn't agree. Maybe that's why I left the lot of them.



    Really?  I was quite a traditonalist as a believer, because that's what I had to be, to me you were either a muslim like islam says you should be, or you left it.  When it became to hard to stomach what I was being made to accept I left it.

    To me the first girl would have got no understanding from allah, since she failed her test.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #26 - October 24, 2008, 08:39 PM

    Well bad things happening to people, I understood in perspective. Eg. if I believed in an afterlife, it didn't matter how rich or poor you were, we were all going to end up with nothing but our good actions. Same goes for how healthy or sick you are and so on. All that mattered was that we were going to be judged about what good we could do within our CAPACITY. So if you were crippled, you couldn't run a marathon and raise heaps of money, but that doesn't mean the healthy person would get more reward than you simply because he has legs; it wouldn't be fair for you to be judged on the same criteria when you have different advantages.

    Nothing actually seemed unfair with god in the picture: if you had a shitty life it didn't matter as this world was not meant to be the real and lasting one, and so on.

    But now, without god, it's random, meaningless slush. I mean what the hell is the point? I really don't know.

    This is the only existence you can be sure of so don't knacker it up. It's difficult because there's always some bludger, however well meaning, trying to tell you what to do. The power trippies will cajole, threaten or punish you if you don't obey their rules. You just have to set your own rules and work within them. That way you can avoid  the slush.
    As you become more confident it comes with consumate ease but it can be quite difficult to steer your own course when the normal disasters of life strike you down. Ultimately you have to sort them out yourself anyway.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #27 - October 26, 2008, 09:34 AM


    Really?  I was quite a traditonalist as a believer, because that's what I had to be,


    What does that mean, you had to be? Surely you just either are or ain't?

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #28 - October 26, 2008, 10:07 AM

    To me the first girl would have got no understanding from allah, since she failed her test.


    Don't you recall the dog and the prostitute? As a muslim, I would've been sure Allah would've shown them mercy, because they were ignorant, and cannot be blamed for what they didn't know, weren't able to do.

    The most comforting thought I've had against the idea of meaningless-ness is a saying of Marcus Aurelius:

    "Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #29 - November 10, 2008, 10:05 PM

    Quote
    So what?  You happen not to like hurting other people, others don't mind so much.  They are still both just preferences, neither more nor less.


    If that's really what you think, then I hope you stay religious.  Some people cannot stay within the boundaries of decent behaviour without believing in a supernatural CCTV constantly looking over their shoulder. Its pathetic, but I suppose its one of those weird things that human nature throws up from time to time.



    No, it's what you think.  Unless you can identify some kind of objective basis for your claims of what is right or wrong with evidence to support it, that's all your 'moral' notions are - preferences.  The fact that you are unwilling to accept this is your problem, not mine.

    And this isn't about behavioural choices per se, it's about how to classify them - if at all.  Throw around your idea of what is 'decent' as much as you like, but it remains meaningless without supporting evidence for why it should be considered so outside of your own mind.

    Cheers,
    sparky
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