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Theme Changer

 Topic: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.

 (Read 40989 times)
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  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #150 - November 22, 2008, 01:46 PM


    The credibility of the bible is established by the person of Jesus Christ.


    What do you mean - I don't understand?


    He quoted from the Old Testament as if it was inspired by God.  He also said that the Holy Spirit would bring to the disciples mind all that he had taught them and that they had seen.  If he is who he says he is, then we can trust his opinion on the Old and New Testaments and they are credible.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #151 - November 22, 2008, 01:56 PM

    Quote from: Hassan
    Is it right or wrong to allow Gay Bishops is not a thread derailer.


    In my experience, anything to do with homosexuality is a thread derailer.

    Quote from: Hassan
    I need to see how your claim to know right from wrong using your objective source works in practise. If you can't tell me how it works in practise - then how can I take your claim to know what is right and wrong seriously.


    No you don't.  I'm not asking you to take my 'claim to know right and wrong seriously'.  I'm arguing that the existence of right and wrong should be believed in because the evidence from reality supports it.  Gay bishops could be right, wrong or morally neutral and that evidence would still exist.

    Quote from: Hassan
    You are the one that came into this thread picking apart Berbs post and calling her claims "absurd" and you are the one who made the claim that one cannot know right from wrong unless they use God as their objective source.


    Where did I call her claims absurd.  That's in quotation marks so I hope you have a quote.  And as far as I understand, you have agreed with my claim about knowing right and wrong in an objective sense - hence you also believe in God.

    Quote from: Hassan
    You need to back-up that claim with specifics and show me that your 'objective source' is not also absurd.

    No I don't.

    Quote from: Hassan
    You have been asked many times - but your answers always deal in generalities and do not answer the question of how exactly you know.

    Not true.  I have given you the specific reasons why I believe what I do.  If you need more specifics on these reasons, I am happy to give them to you.

    Quote from: Hassan
    Gay Bishops is a specific example that would help me understand how this 'objective source' of yours helps you to 'know' what is right and wrong.

    Gay Bishops is a specific example of something that would derail a thread without helping at all to decide the issue at hand.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #152 - November 22, 2008, 02:11 PM

    You've mentioned this problem with being 'born into sin' before.  For me that's one of the most obvious.  That's what my conscience tells me all the time!  I am in fact a git.  And my 'gitiness' goes deep.  Moreover, I see the same traits in pretty much everyone else I have ever met.  Someone tells me 'well that's no surprise because that's the way all people have been since Adam' and suddenly it 'makes sense'.  We are this mix of dignity and gitiness.  So if someone else tells me 'there is no right and wrong except what you have made up in your own head' and my conscience is effectively lying to me by claiming that I have broken some kind of 'law' and the world makes signficantly less sense.


    First of all this doesn't explain why we should be held accountable for the sin of Adam.

    Secondly you say your 'conscience' tells you... and give this as a reason that you believe. You have said similar things about your conscience leading you to faith. But I thought you said one's conscience was not a reliable source for knowing what is right or wrong?

    Thirdly if it is true that we are a mixture of good and bad (or dignity and gitness) - it still doesn't explain why the elaborate myth of a God sending his son to live and die in some remote Roman Province 2000 years ago and get nailed up on a cross so all mankind can be forgiven for... Erm... for... the way God made us.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #153 - November 22, 2008, 02:17 PM


    The credibility of the bible is established by the person of Jesus Christ.


    What do you mean - I don't understand?


    He quoted from the Old Testament as if it was inspired by God.  He also said that the Holy Spirit would bring to the disciples mind all that he had taught them and that they had seen.  If he is who he says he is, then we can trust his opinion on the Old and New Testaments and they are credible.


    So if Jesus is the son of God then what he said is true.

    And that's how you 'know' it's true.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #154 - November 22, 2008, 02:26 PM

    In my Gay bishops could be right, wrong or morally neutral

    Well tell me what is it - spit it out.

    Why are you having such difficulty answering a simple question.

    Where did I call her claims absurd.  That's in quotation marks so I hope you have a quote.

    "What an absurd world you live in":

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=3514.msg90112#msg90112
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #155 - November 22, 2008, 03:33 PM


    The credibility of the bible is established by the person of Jesus Christ.

    What do you mean - I don't understand?

    He quoted from the Old Testament as if it was inspired by God.  He also said that the Holy Spirit would bring to the disciples mind all that he had taught them and that they had seen.  If he is who he says he is, then we can trust his opinion on the Old and New Testaments and they are credible.


    Okay. Just because Jesus is reported as having quoted something, doesn't mean he actually said it. The gospel authors' could've put any words in his mouth. The four gospels don't exactly perfectly agree with eachother, otherwise, why have four and not just one? Jesus didn't ever see the gospels and approved them, they were written hundreds of years after his death.

    Even when Jesus does quote 'The Old Testament', he doesn't quote from the version you have bound with 'The New Testament'. Jesus's quotes from the OT more closely reflect the Greek rendering of the OT, called the 'Septuagint' rather than the older Masoretic Text (Hebrew) whose translation is bound in your Bible. Is Jesus quoting from the Greek (I know the Gospels were written in Greek)? Did Jesus even know Hebrew, as he should have?

    How can Jesus have approved of the epistles?

    And on and on and on...

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #156 - November 22, 2008, 03:53 PM

    Hi Hassan,

    I don't mean to butt in on the conversation with yourself and sparky but when I think of some of the Christian fundamental beliefs I prefer to think along these lines though my own opinions may not be conventional Christian ones and I should not be quoted on them.

    The sin of Adam = the negativity that humans possess and generate.

    Sin. As humans we understand this to be negative actions HOWEVER Jesus's definition of sin included negative thoughts as well. Alot of people forget or don't even know this.

    When I first read this idea that Jesus regarded negative thought as sinful I have to admit I found this harsh since I regard most of the negative thoughts that we generate are in fact self-defense mechanisms.

    For example if in any particular moment we feel bad about ourselves a negative thought about someone else may flash across our minds to make us feel better about ourselves. At least that is what I tell myself.

    So if we are to give Jesus the benefit of the doubt that he was sinless using his own definition then we are conlcuding that he did not generate negative thoughts and so possible explanations for his makeup could be his brain was wired very differently to everybody else or he originated from a realm which was void of negative thought.

    We could suppose that this realm was heaven if we are to believe the latter and if we are to believe the after life is void of negativity.

    This idea of heaven being void of all negativity seems to be the one most attractive to the majority of human beings and is often represented in popular culture be it John Lennon's 'Imagine' or the light in 'Ghost Whisperer'. This idea of heaven also seems to be the dominant one in may religions except Islam which seems to have very specific ideas on what heaven will be like.

    With regards to Jesus dying on the cross to me this represents Jesus processing the negativity that humans produce in order that when we die we can enter heaven void of any negativity.

    The Christian faith leads its followers to believe that Jesus paid and is paying a supernatural price to process this negativity on our behalf, this proce being represented by his crucifixion.

    Christians believe that Jesus was/is God and is made up of the same stuff as God and although the figure of Jesus had/has various functions his principle function was to process this negativity.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #157 - November 22, 2008, 04:14 PM

    Jesus paid and is paying a supernatural price to process this negativity on our behalf, this process being represented by his crucifixion.


    Thanks, Speaklow. May I ask - do you believe that yourself?
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #158 - November 22, 2008, 05:18 PM

    Jesus paid and is paying a supernatural price to process this negativity on our behalf, this process being represented by his crucifixion.


    Thanks, Speaklow. May I ask - do you believe that yourself?


    I'm open-minded about it.

    We all carry around with us both 'logical' and 'ill-logical' belief systems to help us get through the day. Taking on some Christian ideas wouldn't do the majority of people any harm. I guess that goes for the positive messages of all religions including Islam.



  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #159 - November 22, 2008, 05:45 PM

    Jesus paid and is paying a supernatural price to process this negativity on our behalf, this process being represented by his crucifixion.


    Thanks, Speaklow. May I ask - do you believe that yourself?


    I'm open-minded about it.

    We all carry around with us both 'logical' and 'ill-logical' belief systems to help us get through the day. Taking on some Christian ideas wouldn't do the majority of people any harm. I guess that goes for the positive messages of all religions including Islam.


    I entirely agree if you are talking about the fuzzy warm things that most people take from religion; love, charity, patience, etc...

    But what is the benefit of taking on board the idea that God sent his son to get killed in a gruesome manner so that he can forgive us for something that is not our fault?
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #160 - November 22, 2008, 05:49 PM

    Quote

    But what is the benefit of taking on board the idea that God sent his son to get killed in a gruesome manner so that he can forgive us for something that is not our fault?



    I know it is an uncomfortable idea. Right now I can't add more than that.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #161 - November 22, 2008, 06:01 PM

    Quote

    But what is the benefit of taking on board the idea that God sent his son to get killed in a gruesome manner so that he can forgive us for something that is not our fault?



    I know it is an uncomfortable idea. Right now I can't add more than that.



    Uncomfortable? More like weird, bloodthirsty, baseless, negative, unfair, unjust and ridiculous.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #162 - November 22, 2008, 06:06 PM

    Quote

    But what is the benefit of taking on board the idea that God sent his son to get killed in a gruesome manner so that he can forgive us for something that is not our fault?



    I know it is an uncomfortable idea. Right now I can't add more than that.



    Uncomfortable? More like weird, bloodthirsty, baseless, negative, unfair, unjust and ridiculous.


    Well I'm afraid I'm not an expert on Christian interpretation. We probably need some input from our resident Catholics on the forum, be it DivineMercy, Diotima or Baal.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #163 - November 23, 2008, 07:17 PM

    Quote from: Hassan
    First of all this doesn't explain why we should be held accountable for the sin of Adam.


    Who says we are?  We are accountable for our own sin.  I've got plenty all on my own anyway.

    Quote from: Hassan
    Secondly you say your 'conscience' tells you... and give this as a reason that you believe. You have said similar things about your conscience leading you to faith. But I thought you said one's conscience was not a reliable source for knowing what is right or wrong?


    That's correct.  My conscience tells me that an objective right or wrong exists and that I am accountable to it - and hence makes me feel guilty when I do something 'wrong'.  But it doesn't give me an objective basis for knowing what right and wrong actually are.  As I have said, conscience is often unclear, is influencable (If I can convince myself that something is wrong then my conscience will agree) and changeable (if I continue to ignore my conscience, eventually it will stop speaking to me).  It is also subjective and so will it may provide some guidance for my own actions, there is no way I can condemn anyone else on the basis of it.  As a consequence of all these things, conscience is not anywhere near an adequate source of morality and is not sufficient to be able to say on an objective basis that a particular behaviour is either right or wrong.

    If your conscience is all you have, you can't say 'I know this is wrong'.  You could say 'I feel that this is wrong' but you would have to say that you don't know why.

    And isn't this how we work?  If we pass a beggar in the street without offering any help, our conscience may niggle us that we had done something wrong but our minds will then proceed to analyse the reasons whether it is actually wrong or not.  If we can't find a reason to support what our conscience is telling us, we will ignore it.  Over time, it will probably stop niggling us altogether.

    Therefore I conclude that the reasons matter and conscience really isn't enough and may even be giving us false messages.

    Quote from: Hassan
    Thirdly if it is true that we are a mixture of good and bad (or dignity and gitness) - it still doesn't explain why the elaborate myth of a God sending his son to live and die in some remote Roman Province 2000 years ago and get nailed up on a cross so all mankind can be forgiven for... Erm... for... the way God made us.

     
    But that isn't the way God made us.  God made us (mankind) without sin but with the freedom to choose and Adam chose to sin.  Hence the mixture of good and bad - made in the image of God but the image is scarred because of sin.  Experiencing broken relationships with God, each other, the world around us and even ourselves.  And hence also the need for a saviour also... to restore those relationships to the love that there were supposed to be.

    Cheers,
    sparky
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #164 - November 23, 2008, 07:18 PM


    The credibility of the bible is established by the person of Jesus Christ.


    What do you mean - I don't understand?


    He quoted from the Old Testament as if it was inspired by God.  He also said that the Holy Spirit would bring to the disciples mind all that he had taught them and that they had seen.  If he is who he says he is, then we can trust his opinion on the Old and New Testaments and they are credible.


    So if Jesus is the son of God then what he said is true.

    And that's how you 'know' it's true.


    Do you mean, how do I know Jesus is the son of God?  Or are you asking how I know the son of God would speak the truth?
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #165 - November 23, 2008, 07:33 PM



    That's correct.  My conscience tells me that an objective right or wrong exists and that I am accountable to it - and hence makes me feel guilty when I do something 'wrong'.  But it doesn't give me an objective basis for knowing what right and wrong actually are.  As I have said, conscience is often unclear, is influencable (If I can convince myself that something is wrong then my conscience will agree) and changeable (if I continue to ignore my conscience, eventually it will stop speaking to me).  It is also subjective and so will it may provide some guidance for my own actions, there is no way I can condemn anyone else on the basis of it.  As a consequence of all these things, conscience is not anywhere near an adequate source of morality and is not sufficient to be able to say on an objective basis that a particular behaviour is either right or wrong.

    If your conscience is all you have, you can't say 'I know this is wrong'.  You could say 'I feel that this is wrong' but you would have to say that you don't know why.

    And isn't this how we work?  If we pass a beggar in the street without offering any help, our conscience may niggle us that we had done something wrong but our minds will then proceed to analyse the reasons whether it is actually wrong or not.  If we can't find a reason to support what our conscience is telling us, we will ignore it.  Over time, it will probably stop niggling us altogether.

    Therefore I conclude that the reasons matter and conscience really isn't enough and may even be giving us false messages.



    Well I for one disagree, my conscience/niggling moments are enough for me to establish what and WHY something is or should be wrong, all without a guide from someone else.

    I pass a begger on the street and that niggling is because I would want to know someone would stop for me if I was a beggar.

    I know you really want to push the whole "man needs guidance because man can't handle it alone" arguement, but it's not really working for you.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #166 - November 23, 2008, 07:35 PM

    Jesus paid and is paying a supernatural price to process this negativity on our behalf, this process being represented by his crucifixion.


    Thanks, Speaklow. May I ask - do you believe that yourself?


    I'm open-minded about it.

    We all carry around with us both 'logical' and 'ill-logical' belief systems to help us get through the day. Taking on some Christian ideas wouldn't do the majority of people any harm. I guess that goes for the positive messages of all religions including Islam.


    I entirely agree if you are talking about the fuzzy warm things that most people take from religion; love, charity, patience, etc...

    But what is the benefit of taking on board the idea that God sent his son to get killed in a gruesome manner so that he can forgive us for something that is not our fault?


    Who says it's not our fault?  I certainly feel responsible for the things I do wrong.  Don't you?

    Again, the need for something like the crucifixion doesn't surprise me much at all when I think about my daily life.  If someone does something wrong to me - whether my wife or a colleague or whoever - then somehow, there is a price to be paid as a result.  Either I need to swallow the pain and pay that price myself or I can try to make them pay the price them through revenge.  Sometimes the urge to pay back is almost overwhelming - even when posting on an internet forum!!

    So when Christianity says that I am separated from God because of sin and that God has paid the price through the crucifixion (carrying the pain himself) it seems a fairly obvious consequence.  What would be jarring would be for someone to say 'all those things you've done wrong - they just get swept under the carpet'.  Or, as the muslims seem to say, if you do enough good things, you'll be ok?   That's not what I experience in daily life, so why should it be the case with God?

    The crucifixion also takes 'love' well out of the 'warm fuzzy' category and gives it an edge.  The standard and possible price of love suddenly looks a lot more difficult than it did before.  So you say you love your wife/neighbour/children/enemy?  How much?  And aren't these our heroes?  Those who loved even at the cost of their own lives?  Again, it's what my conscience tells me already.

    Cheers,
    sparky
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #167 - November 23, 2008, 07:36 PM

    Quote
    But that isn't the way God made us.  God made us (mankind) without sin but with the freedom to choose and Adam chose to sin.


    What sin did Adam commit?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #168 - November 23, 2008, 08:18 PM

    Quote from: Berbs
    Well I for one disagree, my conscience/niggling moments are enough for me to establish what and WHY something is or should be wrong, all without a guide from someone else.

    I pass a begger on the street and that niggling is because I would want to know someone would stop for me if I was a beggar.

    I know you really want to push the whole "man needs guidance because man can't handle it alone" arguement, but it's not really working for you.

     

    Hi Berbs,

    Your conscience is just a niggle - even combined with the empathy in this case.  It doesn't tell you the 'why' something should be considered wrong.  You have taken that principle of the golden rule and taken it to be your guiding principle.  But that remains subjective unless you can find objective evidence that means that that principle should apply for everyone - i.e. that it is 'true'.

    It's not hard to consider other principles that people might adopt that would lead to rather different responses.

    Someone might say 'I won't help because I want to maximise my reputation and it will be damaged if I am seen with a beggar'.

    or 'I won't help, because people should take care of themselves and if I help he won't learn to do that' (people might even come to that conclusion using the golden rule - I wouldn't want help in such a situation so I won't help this guy).

    or 'I won't help because I don't have the time to help all these beggars'.

    or 'I won't help because it won't make a difference'.

    or 'I won't help because that's what I pay my taxes for - the government should be doing something about it'.

    So if you want to call it 'wrong' not to help a beggar, you need to be able to provide a reason why your principle is the 'true' one and why these other responses are 'wrong'.

    If conscience is your only guide, there is no objective reason to call any behaviour 'wrong' or 'right' - they are just different behaviours resulting from the different subjective preferences of the individuals concerned.  If there is an objective reason, then conscience is not your only guide, something else is.

    And where have I said that 'man needs guidance because man can't handle it alone'?  Like others have said, because I need something doesn't mean that it exists.  Likewise, if you feel you don't need something, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.  The point is that our experiences suggest that right and wrong really exist but without God you have no evidence that they actually do.  Hence, I think the world actually makes less sense without God.

    Cheers,
    sparky
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #169 - November 23, 2008, 08:19 PM

    Quote
    But that isn't the way God made us.  God made us (mankind) without sin but with the freedom to choose and Adam chose to sin.


    What sin did Adam commit?

    He ate the apple...
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #170 - November 23, 2008, 08:22 PM

    Quote
    But that isn't the way God made us.  God made us (mankind) without sin but with the freedom to choose and Adam chose to sin.


    What sin did Adam commit?

    He ate the apple...


    Eating an apple is not a sin.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #171 - November 23, 2008, 08:27 PM

    Quote
    But that isn't the way God made us.  God made us (mankind) without sin but with the freedom to choose and Adam chose to sin.


    What sin did Adam commit?

    He ate the apple...


    Eating an apple is not a sin.

    It is when God says not to...
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #172 - November 23, 2008, 08:30 PM

    Quote
    But that isn't the way God made us.  God made us (mankind) without sin but with the freedom to choose and Adam chose to sin.


    What sin did Adam commit?

    He ate the apple...


    Eating an apple is not a sin.

    It is when God says not to...


    Why?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #173 - November 23, 2008, 08:43 PM

    Quote
    But that isn't the way God made us.  God made us (mankind) without sin but with the freedom to choose and Adam chose to sin.


    What sin did Adam commit?

    He ate the apple...


    Eating an apple is not a sin.

    It is when God says not to...


    Why?

    Because God, as our creator, gets to set the terms for what is right and what is wrong for people.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #174 - November 23, 2008, 08:49 PM

    Quote
    Because God, as our creator, gets to set the terms for what is right and what is wrong for people.


    So blind obedience to God is your standard for objective morality? Huh?  Even if God damns you for eating a blasted apple?  You make God sound like the owner of a slave plantation in the old Deep South.  "I feed you, I clothe you, I hold the power of life and death over you, therefore your  morality is measured by your obedience to me."

    Disgusting.



    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #175 - November 23, 2008, 09:09 PM


    Because God, as our creator, gets to set the terms for what is right and what is wrong for people.


    At he risk of being facetious Cheetah, I was going to ask the same question you asked previously.

    Why?  Roll Eyes



     

    Since Sparky's answer to your question about the apple presupposes that no matter who, or where you are, you fall under the dominion of the Christian "God". And every person on earth recognizes that as a fact.

    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I remain.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #176 - November 23, 2008, 09:14 PM

    Quote
    Because God, as our creator, gets to set the terms for what is right and what is wrong for people.


    So blind obedience to God is your standard for objective morality? Huh?  Even if God damns you for eating a blasted apple?  You make God sound like the owner of a slave plantation in the old Deep South.  "I feed you, I clothe you, I hold the power of life and death over you, therefore your  morality is measured by your obedience to me."

    Disgusting.

    Do slave owners create slaves?  No, they steal them and take away their freedom - something which wasn't theirs to take.

    The creator of a thing gets to set the purpose for that thing.  When I create something, it means and does what I want it to mean and do.  God created man for the purpose of enjoying a relationship with himself but gave him a choice to break that relationship if he wanted to - which is what love does - gives freedom.

    Adam chose to disobey God and break the relationship.  And amazingly he didn't get damned, did he.  There was a way back - right from the beginning.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #177 - November 23, 2008, 09:19 PM


    Because God, as our creator, gets to set the terms for what is right and what is wrong for people.


    At he risk of being facetious Cheetah, I was going to ask the same question you asked previously.

    Why?  Roll Eyes

    Since Sparky's answer to your question about the apple presupposes that no matter who, or where you are, you fall under the dominion of the Christian "God". And every person on earth recognizes that as a fact.

    Was this a question for me?  If so, I didn't understand it.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #178 - November 23, 2008, 09:32 PM


    Because 


    At he risk of being facetious Cheetah, I was going to ask the same question you asked previously.

    Why?  Roll Eyes

    Since Sparky's answer to your question about the apple presupposes that no matter who, or where you are, you fall under the dominion of the Christian "God". And every person on earth recognizes that as a fact.

    Was this a question for me?  If so, I didn't understand it.



    Sorry,   


    Why?   If someone doesn't believe your exact Christian definition of God, should they feel obligated to believe the following statement is Truth.

     "...God, as our creator, gets to set the terms for what is right and what is wrong for people."



    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I remain.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #179 - November 23, 2008, 10:03 PM

    Quote
    Do slave owners create slaves?  No, they steal them and take away their freedom - something which wasn't theirs to take.


    But slave owners didn't steal them and take away their freedom after the first generation.  They inherited already enslaved people, just as the second generation of slaves inherited their slavery.  Given that inheritance, the owners had no culpability in the fact that they had the power of life or death over their "possessions",  while the slaves, sadly, had never possessed any freedom to have taken away from them.

    By accident of birth, one man ends up with the power of life or death over another man.  Does that make the first man's edicts moral?  Should the man born a slave, through no fault or choice of his own, measure his morality by his obedience to his master?

    It would be an objective measure, but would it be the right measure to use?

    Quote
    The creator of a thing gets to set the purpose for that thing.  When I create something, it means and does what I want it to mean and do.  God created man for the purpose of enjoying a relationship with himself but gave him a choice to break that relationship if he wanted to - which is what love does - gives freedom.


    Freedom of choice involves more than a lack of force, Sparky.  One of the most important elements of freedom of choice is full  and accurate information.  God did not give that to Adam.  He gave him an order, he never told him why his order made any sense, he never told him about the consequences of disobeying it.  He never even warned him about the snake!!

    He set a trap, and when Adam fell into it, he misnamed Adam's foolish, ignorant mistake as "free will".  Nice excuse for a supposedly omnipotent God to give. Roll Eyes

    Quote
    Adam chose to disobey God and break the relationship.  And amazingly he didn't get damned, did he.  There was a way back - right from the beginning.


    Adam didn't know the full consequences of his actions, so it wasn't a free choice.  Also, Adam had a major mitigating factor - he only ate the apple to please his wife.  The woman created to be his mate, and who God gave him every reason to trust and love.   

    Given all that, its amazing that a just God would have punished Adam at all.  Still more amazing that Adam's progeny would be suffering the consequences of Adam's hogtied "choice" generations later, when even you admit that we are not responsible for any sins other than our own.

    There was a way back right from the beginning, though, I agree with you on that point.  The way back would be to not allow the snake into the Garden of Eden.

    Btw, do you believe that the Book of Genesis is literally true, or do you take it as an allegory?  I only ask because I rather had the impression that you were Catholic, and a literal reading is unusual from that denomination. Huh?




    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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