Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.

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- Jack Torrance
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #60 - November 12, 2008, 05:03 PM

Quote from: sparky on November 12, 2008, 04:57 PM
[ Another part of the evidence are the claims of people who say they saw Jesus live, die and rise again.

It's not real 'evidence' now is it?

Ha Ha.
- Cheetah
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #61 - November 12, 2008, 05:10 PM

Sparky, you never answered my question about how you discern what God thinks is right or wrong. However, from your answer to Hassan, its seems you discern it from reading the Bible. So, to be strictly accurate, your "objective criteria" for deciding right from wrong is not the Christian God at all - its the Bible.

The Bible was written by men and unless you're a Biblical literalist, it needs to be interpreted by men. All of which makes it just as subjective as our consciences, and at root its inception and interpretation comes from exactly the same place as our morals anyway, ie, human conscience.

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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #62 - November 12, 2008, 05:30 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on November 12, 2008, 05:10 PM
Sparky, you never answered my question about how you discern what God thinks is right or wrong. However, from your answer to Hassan, its seems you discern it from reading the Bible. So, to be strictly accurate, your "objective criteria" for deciding right from wrong is not the Christian God at all - its the Bible.

The Bible was written by men and unless you're a Biblical literalist, it needs to be interpreted by men. All of which makes it just as subjective as our consciences, and at root its inception and interpretation comes from exactly the same place as our morals anyway, ie, human conscience.

No, I said that the Christian God is my 'objective basis' and information about the Christian God can be found in the bible. The bible exists outside of your and my minds and is therefore objective to us - just as is this computer, a chair or whatever. This is not true for our consciences. It is also not subject to change in any meaningful way like our consciences. The bible is communicated in language which, while subject to interpretation, is still understandable - just like you can understand what I am writing here. There is no scope for you to access, in any way, my conscience.

Moreover, because my conscience exists as well as what is written in the bible, I have something against which to measure what I read there. There is no external source against which to compare my conscience if that is all I have.

Your claim of 'just as subjective as our consciences' is untrue.

Cheers,
sparky
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #63 - November 12, 2008, 05:47 PM

Quote
No, I said that the Christian God is my 'objective basis' and information about the Christian God can be found in the bible. The bible exists outside of your and my minds and is therefore objective to us - just as is this computer, a chair or whatever. This is not true for our consciences. It is also not subject to change in any meaningful way like our consciences. The bible is communicated in language which, while subject to interpretation, is still understandable - just like you can understand what I am writing here. There is no scope for you to access, in any way, my conscience.

So, effectively your objective criteria is the Bible because you have no way of knowing if the Christian God really does exist outside of your own mind, and even if you did you would have no way of knowing what his judgements about right and wrong were without the Bible.

Now Bible interpretations are subjective judgement calls, ruled by what your own conscience tells you is right and wrong, (unless you are a Biblical literalist). That is why people don't execute disobedient children or adulterers anymore. Its why some Christians are ordaining gay bishops while others are picketing funerals with signs saying God Hates Fags.

Face it, sparky, the Bible is only objective to you in the basic sense that it exists outside you. Using it as a moral guide involves just as much subjectivity as deciding your morals without it.

"Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny." - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
- cosmicdancer
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #64 - November 12, 2008, 05:57 PM

Quote from: sparky on November 12, 2008, 04:48 PM
I said it was the Christian God, so yes, the information about the Christian God is in the bible. What's there is a pattern of love for mankind as shown in the life of Jesus that we are called to reflect in our behaviour towards others. Right is loving others, wrong is not loving them. It's not more complicated than that.

So your objective basis for deciding what is right and what is wrong is the Christian God - as revealed in the Bible and your 'reflections' on it.

Thanks, Sparky.

Does that include the Old Testament - or only the New Testament?

Since this is open to interpretation and Christians often differ wildly on many matters of what is right and wrong - how is your objective source better than using one's conscience/best Judgement?
- gonzo
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #65 - November 12, 2008, 09:07 PM

Quote from: sparky on November 12, 2008, 04:57 PM
Quote from: Gonzo
Whilst I agree that right and wrong can only be determined on an objective basis, I can't see any justification for you picking something as subjective as the christian god as this basis. The existence of a christian god is not evident as an objective truth and can only be determined by subjective belief.

Hi Gonzo,

I don't agree. The evidential claims of Christianity are available to both you and I and are external to both of us. For me, part of that evidence is the 'moral urge' that seems to be present in all people. That same urge seems to inevitably lead atheists into inconsistency. For the objectivist, the inconsistency is in choosing an objective basis that has no evidential support, for the relativist it is in claiming that there are no absolute morals while behaving as if there are. Another part of the evidence are the claims of people who say they saw Jesus live, die and rise again. Another is the urge towards 'true' meaning that has been identified in this thread.

Hi Sparky,

The claims may be available to both of us, but a claim is not in itself evidence of objective existence. The "moral urge" you describe is not evidence of the christian claims but of the inate need of all humans for a code of values; this does not in itself determine what code of values is needed.

Objectivism holds that the objective basis of ethics (the ultimate value - as it were) is man's life, that which is required for man's survival according to his nature as a rational being. Both the standard of life and man's nature are both objectively observable. Man is proovably a living entity and a rational being (in that he possesses a volitional consciousness and doesn't function on instinct alone.) It is the fact that man possesses a volitional consciousness that makes ethics necessary in the first place.

Quote from: sparky
Quote from: Gonzo
Love is also too ambiguous and to a point subjective criteria on which to base "right and wrong", it is not a value in itself but more a measurement of a value. On what criteria is one loved and is one loathed, as unconditional love would seem to render right and wrong unecessary?

I didn't say love was the basis, I said that God was. Love describes actions that move people towards a relationship with God. A relationship with God is what is 'good' for people. Such actions are 'right'. Here, I don't mean 'feelings' of love but actual, enacted, costly love.

I don't understand what you mean by unconditional love rendering right and wrong unnecessary.

Cheers,
sparky

I misunderstood what you were claiming - I thought you were advocating that god's love was the basis of right and wrong and therefore if god's love was unconditional then regardless of our actions god would love us anyway and we would have nothing to gain or lose from adhering or not adhering to a moral code. I was wanting more clarification on what you meant by the core of this moral code being love.

Regards,
Gonzo

"The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. Whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles" - Ayn Rand
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #66 - November 13, 2008, 03:36 PM

I would like to give you my take on this, as a person who´s pondered deeply about this subject. This is only my opinion.

I think the universe works rather mechanically, meaning you get what you have given.
Expressions such as 'as you saw, so you shall reap' and 'what goes around comes around' carry a lot of ancient wisdom in them. I think what's wrong about God it's the vision or the idea many have of it.
Life might seem unfair for many, the different circumstances each person has, etc but there might be something behind it, and the reincarnationists could have a point. If you think that time and space are relative, our life could in fact spans many lifetimes. In other words, maybe we have indeed only one life but that one life could include many different experiences living in different bodies (just a thought, please don't come at my neck).
In fact, this idea is quite scientific and would make a lot of sense. We live to learn and to experience life to the full.

Now, for me God is that space that is beyond this laws of retribution, karma or however you want to call it. It's a place to take refuge and grace.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #67 - November 13, 2008, 03:40 PM

Quote from: turquoise on November 13, 2008, 03:36 PM
I would like to give you my take on this, as a person who´s pondered deeply about this subject. This is only my opinion.

I think the universe works rather mechanically, meaning you get what you have given.
Expressions such as 'as you saw, so you shall reap' and 'what goes around comes around' carry a lot of ancient wisdom in them. I think what's wrong about God it's the vision or the idea many have of it.
Life might seem unfair for many, the different circumstances each person has, etc but there might be something behind it, and the reincarnationists could have a point. If you think that time and space are relative, our life could in fact spans many lifetimes. In other words, maybe we have indeed only one life but that one life could include many different experiences living in different bodies (just a thought, please don't come at my neck).
In fact, this idea is quite scientific and would make a lot of sense. We live to learn and to experience life to the full.

Now, for me God is that space that is beyond this laws of retribution, karma or however you want to call it. It's a place to take refuge and grace.

I think that's quite a good way of looking at it.

Ha Ha.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #68 - November 13, 2008, 04:00 PM

Quote from: Jack Torrance on November 13, 2008, 03:40 PM
Quote from: turquoise on November 13, 2008, 03:36 PM
I would like to give you my take on this, as a person who´s pondered deeply about this subject. This is only my opinion.

I think the universe works rather mechanically, meaning you get what you have given.
Expressions such as 'as you saw, so you shall reap' and 'what goes around comes around' carry a lot of ancient wisdom in them. I think what's wrong about God it's the vision or the idea many have of it.
Life might seem unfair for many, the different circumstances each person has, etc but there might be something behind it, and the reincarnationists could have a point. If you think that time and space are relative, our life could in fact spans many lifetimes. In other words, maybe we have indeed only one life but that one life could include many different experiences living in different bodies (just a thought, please don't come at my neck).
In fact, this idea is quite scientific and would make a lot of sense. We live to learn
and to experience life to the full.

Now, for me God is that space that is beyond this laws of retribution, karma or
however you want to call it. It's a place to take refuge and grace.

I think that's quite a good way of looking at it.

Thank you, Jack
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #69 - November 14, 2008, 07:54 PM

Quote from: Cheetah
So, effectively your objective criteria is the Bible because you have no way of knowing if the Christian God really does exist outside of your own mind, and even if you did you would have no way of knowing what his judgements about right and wrong were without the Bible.

I've already explained some of the evidence I take to indicate the existence of God (the fact that all humans seek meaning and objective morality, the testimony of witnesses). Some of this is in the bible, some is not. The bible as a whole effectively provides an explanation which, together with the evidence available suggests that the true God is the Christian God. Ultimate truth about the character of the Christian God can only be known from the bible but some indicators of his character exist in things that are observed in ourselves and the universe.

But yes, the final authority on God's 'judgements about right and wrong' come from the bible.

Quote from: Cheetah
Now Bible interpretations are subjective judgement calls, ruled by what your own conscience tells you is right and wrong, (unless you are a Biblical literalist). That is why people don't execute disobedient children or adulterers anymore. Its why some Christians are ordaining gay bishops while others are picketing funerals with signs saying God Hates Fags.

Not really true. Some Christians would take a different view of the importance of the bible as a source of information about God and his judgements. In such a case, the difference is not in interpretation but in the place of the bible as a whole.

In addition, some people might call themselves Christians but make no attempt to regulate their behaviour by what is written in the bible at all.

Some might use the bible but just fail to live up to what it commands - even though they agree with it.

As a result, it is not correct to point to differences in opinion and behaviour about moral issues and say that it is all about 'interpretations'. This would be akin to saying that because some people disagree that the process of evolution is responsible for the diverse living species that it is all about 'subjective interpretations' and the truth cannot be known. The data is there, external to our minds and therefore the possibility for a 'true' understanding exists.

Because the bible exists as an objective document (external to both your mind and my mind) means that we can at least have a discussion about its content. It is not a forgone conclusion that we will come to a different explanation and its 'true' meaning may be discoverable. The fact that people might disagree does not mean that a true meaning doesn't exist.

With the conscience, this is not the case. You can tell me what your conscience tells you and I can tell you about mine and we may even agree - but there is no case for 'true' or 'untrue' that can be made. You could lie to me about your conscience and I would have no means to correct you. For this reason, if conscience is your only guide, then you have no argument to object when someone behaves in a way that you don't like if they were also following their conscience. That's the reality you need to face as an atheist - no meaningful judgements about right and wrong at all!

Quote from: Cheetah
Face it, sparky, the Bible is only objective to you in the basic sense that it exists outside you.

And that is a fundamental and manifest difference to relying on 'conscience' alone.

Quote from: Cheetah
Using it as a moral guide involves just as much subjectivity as deciding your morals without it.

Not true at all. If something exists only in my mind, no-one else has access to it and even I cannot really be sure that is anything more than my last meal speaking. With the bible, that is not the case, we may disagree about interpretation, but the data is still there for reference. In the case of the bible, the material spans a long period, contains a variety of different types of literature, comes from a variety of authors and is extensive in length. As a result, the material available for cross-checking interpretations is plentiful. As a result, the possibilities of determining a 'true' meaning are far greater than for a purely subjective source which, as I have said, is changeable, influencable and unclear.

Cheers,
sparky
- sojournerlumus
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #70 - November 14, 2008, 07:58 PM

What a load of old shite.
Cheers Sparky.

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- Cheetah
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #71 - November 14, 2008, 08:05 PM

Quote
I've already explained some of the evidence I take to indicate the existence of God (the fact that all humans seek meaning and objective morality, the testimony of witnesses).

That's not evidence of God, that's evidence of something in human nature, its a feature of human psychology. Whether you ascribe it something supernatural, like a deity, is a matter of faith, not evidence. As for witness testimony, I would disregard it as the most notoriously unreliable type of evidence, especially where the witness accounts contradict each other, which is the case with the Bible.

Sorry sparky, I'll have to address the rest later. Have to go.

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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #72 - November 14, 2008, 08:08 PM

Quote from: Hassan on November 12, 2008, 05:57 PM
Quote from: sparky on November 12, 2008, 04:48 PM
I said it was the Christian God, so yes, the information about the Christian God is in the bible. What's there is a pattern of love for mankind as shown in the life of Jesus that we are called to reflect in our behaviour towards others. Right is loving others, wrong is not loving them. It's not more complicated than that.

So your objective basis for deciding what is right and what is wrong is the Christian God - as revealed in the Bible and your 'reflections' on it.

Thanks, Sparky.

Does that include the Old Testament - or only the New Testament?

Since this is open to interpretation and Christians often differ wildly on many matters of what is right and wrong - how is your objective source better than using one's conscience/best Judgement?

I meant 'reflect' as in 'mirror' or 'emulate' not as in 'think about'.

The bible includes the Old and New Testaments.

As I mentioned to Cheetah. The fact that Christians disagree just means that Christians disagree. There could be a variety of reasons for that. It doesn't mean that the truth cannot be known.

As for 'better than'. I'm not looking for a comparison. If the Christian God doesn't exist then the bible is untrue. There would be no more reason to use the bible than anything else because it would have no authority in matters of human behaviour. If either God doesn't exist or, as seems to be the case for you, God hasn't told you anything about himself, then I suppose conscience is all you have. But this doesn't get you to a position of 'right' and 'wrong'. It gets you to 'preferred behaviour'. If someone else has preferred behaviour that you don't like, there is no rational case you can make to object to it. Human interaction becomes about power - either physical through state laws or pschological through manipulation - to get others to behave in the way you want.

What I want to know is if you are really happy to accept that this is the case? No matter whether Christianity is true or not, this is the situation you are in at the moment.

Cheers,
sparky
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #73 - November 14, 2008, 08:09 PM

Quote from: sojournerlumus on November 14, 2008, 07:58 PM
What a load of old shite.
Cheers Sparky.

I don't really understand why you have become so rude...
- Jack Torrance
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #74 - November 14, 2008, 08:11 PM

Quote from: sparky on November 14, 2008, 08:08 PM
Human interaction becomes about power - either physical through state laws or pschological through manipulation - to get others to behave in the way you want.

What I want to know is if you are really happy to accept that this is the case? No matter whether Christianity is true or not, this is the situation you are in at the moment.

Cheers,
sparky

By psycholgical manipulation, you mean Christianity?

Ha Ha.
- Jack Torrance
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #75 - November 14, 2008, 08:12 PM

Quote from: sparky on November 14, 2008, 08:09 PM
Quote from: sojournerlumus on November 14, 2008, 07:58 PM
What a load of old shite.
Cheers Sparky.

I don't really understand why you have become so rude...

It's not rude, just true

Ha Ha.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #76 - November 14, 2008, 08:19 PM

Quote from: sparky on November 14, 2008, 08:08 PM
The bible includes the Old and New Testaments.

As I mentioned to Cheetah. The fact that Christians disagree just means that Christians disagree. There could be a variety of reasons for that. It doesn't mean that the truth cannot be known.

<snippage>

Cheers,
sparky

Sparkles me ol' china, you seem to be missing the point here. The fact that Christians disagree means that the stuff they're arguing about is interpreted subjectively. No, it does not mean the truth cannot be known, but what it does mean is that there is no objective basis for your beliefs. People have ben trying to explain this and you appear to have been trying to not get it. Just sayin'.

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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #77 - November 14, 2008, 08:20 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on November 14, 2008, 08:05 PM
Quote
I've already explained some of the evidence I take to indicate the existence of God (the fact that all humans seek meaning and objective morality, the testimony of witnesses).

That's not evidence of God, that's evidence of something in human nature, its a feature of human psychology. Whether you ascribe it something supernatural, like a deity, is a matter of faith, not evidence. As for witness testimony, I would disregard it as the most notoriously unreliable type of evidence, especially where the witness accounts contradict each other, which is the case with the Bible.

Sorry sparky, I'll have to address the rest later. Have to go.

I'm happy to talk about contradictions in the witness testimony but the fact is that we all live our lives based on witness testimony all the time. In some cases, that just may be all we have.

Humans seeking meaning and morality is data to be explained. Christianity provides an explanation as to why these should exist. I find that explanation convincing.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #78 - November 14, 2008, 08:30 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on November 14, 2008, 08:19 PM
Quote from: sparky on November 14, 2008, 08:08 PM
The bible includes the Old and New Testaments.

As I mentioned to Cheetah. The fact that Christians disagree just means that Christians disagree. There could be a variety of reasons for that. It doesn't mean that the truth cannot be known.

<snippage>

Cheers,
sparky

Sparkles me ol' china, you seem to be missing the point here. The fact that Christians disagree means that the stuff they're arguing about is interpreted subjectively. No, it does not mean the truth cannot be known, but what it does mean is that there is no objective basis for your beliefs. People have ben trying to explain this and you appear to have been trying to not get it. Just sayin'.

But with conscience that truth cannot be known - not even by the person themselves. There is no 'truth' when it comes to 'right' human behaviour at all. That's the difference.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #79 - November 14, 2008, 08:38 PM

Sorry old lad (ette), but we need evidence. Evidence , for anything, is the only objective guide that's available to us. Without that , everything else is, of necessity, subjective. Couldn't be plainer really.
But I'm sure you're about to tell me it could.

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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #80 - November 14, 2008, 08:41 PM

Quote from: sparky on November 14, 2008, 08:30 PM
Quote from: osmanthus on November 14, 2008, 08:19 PM
Quote from: sparky on November 14, 2008, 08:08 PM
The bible includes the Old and New Testaments.

As I mentioned to Cheetah. The fact that Christians disagree just means that Christians disagree. There could be a variety of reasons for that. It doesn't mean that the truth cannot be known.

<snippage>

Cheers,
sparky

Sparkles me ol' china, you seem to be missing the point here. The fact that Christians disagree means that the stuff they're arguing about is interpreted subjectively. No, it does not mean the truth cannot be known, but what it does mean is that there is no objective basis for your beliefs. People have ben trying to explain this and you appear to have been trying to not get it. Just sayin'.

But with conscience that truth cannot be known - not even by the person themselves. There is no 'truth' when it comes to 'right' human behaviour at all. That's the difference.

Wrong. You've made a slip up there. You see what I'm getting at is that although a "truth" may exist you have no way of getting at it via your Christian beliefs (because they are based on subjective interpretations). That doesn't mean you can't get there, even accidentally, but it does mean you never have any objective means of knowing you have gotten there. In other words, much as you would prefer not to admit it you really are in the same boat as the atheists and agnostics when it comes to "ultimate truth".

I agree that with conscience or any other method of human endeavour that we have no definitive, objective way of knowing what is right and wrong. That's just a fact of life. We still have to live regardless of this (assuming we are going to choose to live).

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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #81 - November 14, 2008, 08:47 PM

Quote from: sparky on November 14, 2008, 08:08 PM
If either God doesn't exist or, as seems to be the case for you, God hasn't told you anything about himself, then I suppose conscience is all you have. But this doesn't get you to a position of 'right' and 'wrong'. It gets you to 'preferred behaviour'. If someone else has preferred behaviour that you don't like, there is no rational case you can make to object to it. Human interaction becomes about power - either physical through state laws or pschological through manipulation - to get others to behave in the way you want.

What I want to know is if you are really happy to accept that this is the case? No matter whether Christianity is true or not, this is the situation you are in at the moment.

I'm certainly am not happy that human interaction would be about power, but I'm not sure that is necessarily the case, nor can I see that those who follow the bible behave any differently from others.

But even if that was the case - what can I do about it? (bearing in mind I cannot force myself to believe in a set of beliefs I find absurd.)
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #82 - November 14, 2008, 08:47 PM

Quote from: gonzo
The claims may be available to both of us, but a claim is not in itself evidence of objective existence. The "moral urge" you describe is not evidence of the christian claims but of the inate need of all humans for a code of values; this does not in itself determine what code of values is needed.

The moral urge not only indicates the need for a code of values but, in my experience, has a particular direction to it. I find that Christianity provides an explanation both for why such a need should exist and for why my conscience tends to tell me what it does.

Quote from: gonzo
Objectivism holds that the objective basis of ethics (the ultimate value - as it were) is man's life, that which is required for man's survival according to his nature as a rational being. Both the standard of life and man's nature are both objectively observable. Man is proovably a living entity and a rational being (in that he possesses a volitional consciousness and doesn't function on instinct alone.) It is the fact that man possesses a volitional consciousness that makes ethics necessary in the first place.

They are objectively observable but there is no evidential basis as to why they should be chosen above, say, happiness or reputation or nothing at all, as the basis deciding on whether behaviour is right or wrong. In addition, I find that there are few real behavioural implications that result from choosing man's life as this basis. As well as just assuming this basis, you have to continue to assume other values and priorities between these values. Lastly, I find that the implications of these values, as expressed by objectivists, actually contradicts what my conscience tells me. Actions that my conscience tells me are wrong, become right or morally neutral.

Quote from: gonzo
I misunderstood what you were claiming - I thought you were advocating that god's love was the basis of right and wrong and therefore if god's love was unconditional then regardless of our actions god would love us anyway and we would have nothing to gain or lose from adhering or not adhering to a moral code. I was wanting more clarification on what you meant by the core of this moral code being love.

Ok.

Cheers,
sparky
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #83 - November 14, 2008, 08:48 PM

Quote from: sojournerlumus on November 14, 2008, 08:38 PM
Sorry old lad (ette), but we need evidence. Evidence , for anything, is the only objective guide that's available to us. Without that , everything else is, of necessity, subjective. Couldn't be plainer really.
But I'm sure you're about to tell me it could.

Correct. And so morality for you is entirely subjective.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #84 - November 14, 2008, 08:55 PM

Plain as a pikestaff. A best-fudge construct to counteract our apparent, worst excesses at this stage in our long evolution.

Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #85 - November 15, 2008, 07:52 PM

Quote from: sojournerlumus on November 14, 2008, 08:55 PM
Plain as a pikestaff. A best-fudge construct to counteract our apparent, worst excesses at this stage in our long evolution.

There are no 'worst excesses' though.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #86 - November 15, 2008, 08:21 PM

Quote from: Os
Wrong. You've made a slip up there. You see what I'm getting at is that although a "truth" may exist you have no way of getting at it via your Christian beliefs (because they are based on subjective interpretations).

All interpretations are subjective because they occur in the mind. When the event you are interpreting is objective, however, others can also 'interpret' the event and you have a means to test your intepretation against others. This helps to determine what is 'true' or real and what is occuring only in your mind.

For conscience, there is no possibility for you to confirm my interpretation of my own conscience because you have no access to it. For the bible, this is not the case.

Quote from: Os
That doesn't mean you can't get there, even accidentally, but it does mean you never have any objective means of knowing you have gotten there.

The objective means are the same as for any other objective event.

Quote from: Os
In other words, much as you would prefer not to admit it you really are in the same boat as the atheists and agnostics when it comes to "ultimate truth".

Not at all. The existence of an objective source for Christian morality is a fundamental difference to the person who relies only on 'conscience' - which is not all atheists and agnostics by any means.

Quote from: Os
I agree that with conscience or any other method of human endeavour that we have no definitive, objective way of knowing what is right and wrong. That's just a fact of life. We still have to live regardless of this (assuming we are going to choose to live).

If you live as if right and wrong really exists (by making statements such as 'people should do this or that' or 'x is morally better than y' or behaving as if these things were true) then you are living inconsistently to what you actually believe about reality. In my view, that would be a world that makes 'less sense' and not more.

Cheers,
sparky
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #87 - November 15, 2008, 08:28 PM

Quote from: Hassan on November 14, 2008, 08:47 PM
Quote from: sparky on November 14, 2008, 08:08 PM
If either God doesn't exist or, as seems to be the case for you, God hasn't told you anything about himself, then I suppose conscience is all you have. But this doesn't get you to a position of 'right' and 'wrong'. It gets you to 'preferred behaviour'. If someone else has preferred behaviour that you don't like, there is no rational case you can make to object to it. Human interaction becomes about power - either physical through state laws or pschological through manipulation - to get others to behave in the way you want.

What I want to know is if you are really happy to accept that this is the case? No matter whether Christianity is true or not, this is the situation you are in at the moment.

I'm certainly am not happy that human interaction would be about power, but I'm not sure that is necessarily the case, nor can I see that those who follow the bible behave any differently from others.

But even if that was the case - what can I do about it? (bearing in mind I cannot force myself to believe in a set of beliefs I find absurd.)

I would urge you to think through the implications of the fact that your opinions of 'right' and 'wrong' exist only as your personal preferences for certain types of behaviour. When you make a moral judgement about someone else's behaviour what you are effectively saying is 'I prefer you not to behave that way'. You are not calling them to some kind of 'true' external standard because that standard doesn't exist.

If you are unhappy with this, I can only suggest re-examining what should qualify as 'absurd'. Certainly if God exists, I'm not sure I get to set the terms for what he can and can't do.

Cheers,
sparky
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #88 - November 15, 2008, 08:48 PM

Quote from: sparky on November 15, 2008, 08:28 PM
I would urge you to think through the implications of the fact that your opinions of 'right' and 'wrong' exist only as your personal preferences for certain types of behaviour.

Perhaps consulting one's conscience is more than simply personal preference. Perhaps it is something more than that - a link to the divine or an inbuilt natural instinct from the divine - who knows.

But since I don't know - I can only look around me and see that in 'practice' my use of my conscience is certainly no worse - and imho - a a lot better than many Christians or Muslims using their 'objective' sources.

Quote from: sparky on November 15, 2008, 08:28 PM
if God exists, I'm not sure I get to set the terms for what he can and can't do.

That's what Muslims tell me.

But my judgments about what I think a God can and cannot do (i.e. Unreasonable and unacceptable things like: Hell, allowing hitting women in the Qur'an, making us responsible for the sin of Adam, making acceptance of the son he sent to die on the cross, as the only way to salvation etc...) are the only way I can make a judgment about whether to believe in a religion or not.

If I was to ignore things that I found absurd or unreasonable or unjust - I would still be a Muslim.

Or am I to only suspend my sense of what is absurd and unreasonable in the case of Christianity?

May I ask you, Sparky, if you have ever seriously considered whether, Jesus was not the son of God and God - if he exists - played no part in the Bible - that it is simply the work of men.

In other words that your beliefs are entirely wrong?
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #89 - November 16, 2008, 09:16 AM

Quote from: Hassan
Perhaps consulting one's conscience is more than simply personal preference. Perhaps it is something more than that - a link to the divine or an inbuilt natural instinct from the divine - who knows.

I think we can know and I'm pretty sure that it is more than a personal preference. But unless you have some evidence that such a link exists, this claim is no more or less absurd than any other you might be ruling out because of its 'absurdity'.

Quote from: Hassan
But since I don't know - I can only look around me and see that in 'practice' my use of my conscience is certainly no worse - and imho - a a lot better than many Christians or Muslims using their 'objective' sources.

Of course, you think it's better - it's your conscience! And the point was never about the results on behaviour, it was whether the world makes 'more sense' without God. I don't believe in an objective morality because it makes me a better person but because that is what is actually true. You still haven't given me any reason to think that a world without God makes anything but less sense.

Quote from: Hassan
That's what Muslims tell me.

In this, they may not be wrong.

Quote from: Hassan
But my judgments about what I think a God can and cannot do (i.e. Unreasonable and unacceptable things like: Hell, allowing hitting women in the Qur'an, making us responsible for the sin of Adam, making acceptance of the son he sent to die on the cross, as the only way to salvation etc...) are the only way I can make a judgment about whether to believe in a religion or not.

That isn't true. You can weigh up evidence as you do for anything else. Normally, you would not make what you like or don't like as the final decider for what is true.

Quote from: Hassan
If I was to ignore things that I found absurd or unreasonable or unjust - I would still be a Muslim.

Possibly. But I don't think they are very good grounds for deciding on what is true. Given what we have discussed about morality, I don't see how you can describe where you have landed as not absurd or reasonable - and 'justice' doesn't exist at all.

Quote from: Hassan
Or am I to only suspend my sense of what is absurd and unreasonable in the case of Christianity?

Not at all. Have the same criteria for all of what you decide about reality. At the moment, I think you are suspending these senses for what you believe now.

Quote from: Hassan
May I ask you, Sparky, if you have ever seriously considered whether, Jesus was not the son of God and God - if he exists - played no part in the Bible - that it is simply the work of men.

In other words that your beliefs are entirely wrong?

Sure - that's the principle reason I come to discuss on CEM, FFI, RDnet etc. I don't get my ideas challenged by going to church! But in all these discussions, I have yet to encounter a serious reason to believe that it isn't true. Of course, as Jack says, that could be just my 'barrier' but I figure that if it really isn't true, something, sometime, will get through.
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