Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.

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- sparky
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #90 - November 16, 2008, 09:33 AM

Hassan and others,

I recently had an experience which throws the whole question into sharp relief for me.

Not too long ago, a friend of mine was shot in the street. I found her lying there in a pool of blood a few minutes after it happened. To my knowledge her killers have still not been found.

As I reflect on that event, it seems that I have two choices in how to interpret what has happened.

As Berbs has said in the OP, instead of struggling against it, I can accept that the world is a swirl of random events - some of which I will like and some which I won't like. That God either doesn't exist or doesn't care or can't do anything about it. That the actions of my friends killers and those of herself are neither right nor wrong in any objective sense and my personal revulsion is just that, a personal revulsion.

Or, I can believe that God exists, cares and has the power to intervene but, in this case, has chosen not too. That the actions of her killers have broken a cosmic law which requires some kind of consequence. That the revulsion I feel is a reflection of the revulsion God feels. That I may not understand the reason that God has not intervened but can rest in his promise that such actions will not go unpunished.

In the first case, I end up with a dissonance between what I feel inside and what I believe about reality. In the second, I don't. As a result, the second makes 'more sense' to me.

Cheers,
sparky
- osmanthus
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #91 - November 16, 2008, 09:40 AM

Oh I can quite understand why you'd find the second option more satisfying. I think anyone would, but that doesn't mean it's true. Doesn't necessarily mean its false either, of course, but it certainly isn't what you could call "evidence".

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- cosmicdancer
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #92 - November 16, 2008, 09:50 AM

Quote from: sparky on November 16, 2008, 09:16 AM
That isn't true. You can weigh up evidence as you do for anything else. Normally, you would not make what you like or don't like as the final decider for what is true.

If I ignore the fact that I find the claims of Christianity absurd, unjust and irrational - and look only at the "evidence" (The Bible) I find it equally unconvincing.

Perhaps there is some evidence I have missed - and perhaps you could point me towards it.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #93 - November 16, 2008, 10:12 AM

Hi Sparky,

Forgive me for replying in little bits - I'm doing other things while surfing - at the mo I'm getting the kids brekkie.

Quote from: sparky on November 16, 2008, 09:16 AM
I think we can know and I'm pretty sure that it is more than a personal preference. But unless you have some evidence that such a link exists, this claim is no more or less absurd than any other you might be ruling out because of its 'absurdity'.

What evidence do you have that makes you so certain?
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #94 - November 16, 2008, 10:29 AM

Quote from: sparky on November 16, 2008, 09:16 AM

Possibly. But I don't think they are very good grounds for deciding on what is true. Given what we have discussed about morality, I don't see how you can describe where you have landed as not absurd or reasonable - and 'justice' doesn't exist at all.

I agree and if there is a Just and loving God, then 'where I have landed' is not a satisfactory place - which is why I am still doing my best to understand - but as yet I have found nothing that even remotely satisfies me. And as I said to Hassan1 recently - I'd rather admit I simply don't know than believe in something I find unbelievable.

And I have to admit that I have no indisputable evidence to dismiss the possibility that there is no God - in which case, I have to accept that we may indeed live in a world that is absurd and without justice.

Not a nice thought - I know - but just because it is not a nice 'place to be' is not a good reason to accept beliefs I find unbelievable.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #95 - November 16, 2008, 10:32 AM

Quote from: sparky on November 16, 2008, 09:16 AM
I don't believe in an objective morality because it makes me a better person but because that is what is actually true.

How do you know that is true?

Quote from: sparky on November 16, 2008, 09:16 AM
You still haven't given me any reason to think that a world without God makes anything but less sense.

That's because I don't think the world without God makes more sense.

Doesn't mean it's not actually the case though.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #96 - November 16, 2008, 10:40 AM

Quote from: sparky on November 16, 2008, 09:16 AM
Sure - that's the principle reason I come to discuss on CEM, FFI, RDnet etc. I don't get my ideas challenged by going to church! But in all these discussions, I have yet to encounter a serious reason to believe that it isn't true. Of course, as Jack says, that could be just my 'barrier' but I figure that if it really isn't true, something, sometime, will get through.

Actually I don't think internet forums are the best place to reflect on one's own beliefs. Most of the time we are too busy trying to prove the other person is 'wrong' or that we are 'right' to really question ourselves. It becomes an obsessive 'game' where our ego just takes control.

I mean have you really sat down by yourself and really considered that your beliefs may actually be wrong?
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #97 - November 16, 2008, 10:43 AM

Quote from: Hassan
making acceptance of the son he sent to die on the cross, as the only way to salvation etc...

Hi Hassan,

I know you've mentioned this a few times Hassan so I thought I'd just point out that this idea in the above quote is not exactly the Catholic position.

Roughly the Catholic position is anyone who lives a Christ like life, i.e. generally a good person and seeks contact with God will be saved including Jews, Muslims and even those who've never heard of Jesus.

This position was outlined in a meeting of clergy known as Vatican II which took place in the sixties.

Since this understanding was rubber stamped by the Pope then it is law.

I've including a quote from a document called 'lumen gentium' which has some bearing on the conversation between yourself and Sparky.

I believe that this view was adopted because the fundamental question that you outlined in your Hell video needed answering or any religious church could not move forward in this modern era without addressing the idea of eternal hell for non-believers.

At the time I believe this view may have upset the more conservative members of the catholic church but it needed addressing.

Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #98 - November 16, 2008, 10:44 AM

Quote from: sparky on November 16, 2008, 09:33 AM
Hassan and others,

I recently had an experience which throws the whole question into sharp relief for me.

Not too long ago, a friend of mine was shot in the street. I found her lying there in a pool of blood a few minutes after it happened. To my knowledge her killers have still not been found.

As I reflect on that event, it seems that I have two choices in how to interpret what has happened.

As Berbs has said in the OP, instead of struggling against it, I can accept that the world is a swirl of random events - some of which I will like and some which I won't like. That God either doesn't exist or doesn't care or can't do anything about it. That the actions of my friends killers and those of herself are neither right nor wrong in any objective sense and my personal revulsion is just that, a personal revulsion.

Or, I can believe that God exists, cares and has the power to intervene but, in this case, has chosen not too. That the actions of her killers have broken a cosmic law which requires some kind of consequence. That the revulsion I feel is a reflection of the revulsion God feels. That I may not understand the reason that God has not intervened but can rest in his promise that such actions will not go unpunished.

In the first case, I end up with a dissonance between what I feel inside and what I believe about reality. In the second, I don't. As a result, the second makes 'more sense' to me.

Cheers,
sparky

I can certainly see why the second scenario makes you 'feel' better and I will concede that it makes more 'sense' (though that may be arguable).

But it doesn't make it true.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #99 - November 16, 2008, 10:55 AM

Quote from: speaklow on November 16, 2008, 10:43 AM

Roughly the Catholic position is anyone who lives a Christ like life, i.e. generally a good person and seeks contact with God will be saved including Jews, Muslims and even those who've never heard of Jesus.

Thanks, Speaklow - that is certainly better than insisting one must accept Christ to be saved. Though I would still have a problem with it. I am not an atheist, but I can totally understand the position they take and certainly don't think any loving and merciful God would damn them for taking such a position.

And this is yet another problem I have with Christianity - there are just so many different groups saying different things. God really didn't make things very clear - did he?

@ Sparky - What denomination or belief do you follow? Do you believe one must accept Christ to be saved?
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #100 - November 16, 2008, 11:02 AM

Quote from: Hassan on November 16, 2008, 10:55 AM
Quote from: speaklow on November 16, 2008, 10:43 AM

Roughly the Catholic position is anyone who lives a Christ like life, i.e. generally a good person and seeks contact with God will be saved including Jews, Muslims and even those who've never heard of Jesus.

Thanks, Speaklow - that is certainly better than insisting one must accept Christ to be saved. Though I would still have a problem with it. I am not an atheist, but I can totally understand the position they take and certainly don't think any loving and merciful God would damn them for taking such a position.

And this is yet another problem I have with Christianity - there are just so many different groups saying different things. God really didn't make things very clear - did he?

@ Sparky - What denomination or belief do you follow? Do you believe one must accept Christ to be saved?

You're absolutely right and I'm a great believer of what you outlined earlier when contemplating decisions we take on a day to day basis

'Let your conscience be your guide'.

I think Sparky is contemplating the origin of our conscience.

Whether it is God given or a result of evolution.

Even Dawkins, during his series on Darwin still didn't have a solid answer of how or why kindness evolved.

There are still many questions to be answered.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #101 - November 16, 2008, 11:06 AM

Quote from: Hassan on November 16, 2008, 10:55 AM
Thanks, Speaklow - that is certainly better than insisting one must accept Christ to be saved. Though I would still have a problem with it.

If you read it carefully it basically says you still need to be religious to be saved.

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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #102 - November 16, 2008, 11:12 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on November 16, 2008, 11:06 AM
Quote from: Hassan on November 16, 2008, 10:55 AM
Thanks, Speaklow - that is certainly better than insisting one must accept Christ to be saved. Though I would still have a problem with it.

If you read it carefully it basically says you still need to be religious to be saved.

Seeking God even on a personal level at least, religious probably not.

But if you want to join their club you have to at least be seeking God.

There's no such thing as a free lunch.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #103 - November 16, 2008, 12:08 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on November 16, 2008, 11:06 AM
Quote from: Hassan on November 16, 2008, 10:55 AM
Thanks, Speaklow - that is certainly better than insisting one must accept Christ to be saved. Though I would still have a problem with it.

If you read it carefully it basically says you still need to be religious to be saved.

These days, most ordinary people recognise that damning people for not believing in the right religion or god - is unjust.

But this puts religions in a dilemma.

Do they ignore the injustice of it and maintain their exclusivity?

Or do they include all 'good' people - regardless of their beliefs about God.

The latter of course undermines the whole need for the religion.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #104 - November 16, 2008, 12:36 PM

I can only go by what I've seen in the media with regards to the Catholic view which seems to get more attention than other religious groups but recently the Pope called for an end to persecution of apostates of Islam and by implication all apostates of all religions.

With regards to religion it depends on what we define as religion.

Jesus, for example, going by the gospels at least, never called for a mainstream religion to be formed only that his message be spread.

If we can define the Christian religion as a loosely grouped set of moral codes then that they have value for some people in day to day life.

We need to be conscious of where the original message stops and man-made religious dogma starts.

Big questions.

PS I hope I haven't annoyed Baal by posting that Vatican document excerpt as it implies we must love all those seeking God, including our Muslim brothers and sisters.

Only joking Baal. I think you're a good sport.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #105 - November 16, 2008, 12:53 PM

Quote from: Hassan on November 16, 2008, 12:08 PM

Do they ignore the injustice of it and maintain their exclusivity?

With regards to the Catholic church it does not preach exclusivity and generally never openly criticises another Christian denomination for example.

However this has not always been the case.

One of the best documentary series I believe that has ever been shown on the BBC was the Protestant Revolution. If I can remember it was made up of four programs and was shown on BBC Two.

It's a great series and outlines in many ways why the West is the way it is and not so religious.

I recommend you watching it if you can and also any Muslims from overseas who are logging on to this forum may understand the West a bit better if they check it out.

The series presented a very positive message.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #106 - November 16, 2008, 07:16 PM

Quote from: sparky on November 15, 2008, 07:52 PM
Quote from: sojournerlumus on November 14, 2008, 08:55 PM
Plain as a pikestaff. A best-fudge construct to counteract our apparent, worst excesses at this stage in our long evolution.

There are no 'worst excesses' though.

Of course there are. This is not to impute blame via a subjective morality though.
I'd say that deliberately killing or creating the conditions for the killing of an awful lot of Armenians, Jews, Cambodians, Tutsi, Darfuri, etc is a tad excessive. Or the useless slaughter of 9 million men in the tranches of WW1, 2 million in Iran/Iraq, etc. I could give other egs.
The fact is though, we seem to breed like rabbits after such excesses, rather excessively in fact, and end up doubling the population within 2 generations. We are born to excess and some are worse than others.

Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #107 - November 20, 2008, 12:02 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on November 16, 2008, 09:40 AM
Oh I can quite understand why you'd find the second option more satisfying. I think anyone would, but that doesn't mean it's true. Doesn't necessarily mean its false either, of course, but it certainly isn't what you could call "evidence".

I thought Berb's answer was just the opposite. The fact that bad things happen causes a problem when you think that God exists and disappears when God is taken out of the equation. As far as I can see, because we don't really believe that 'bad' doesn't exist, we can't get rid of it by getting rid of God so we end up with a bigger problem than we started with!

As far as I can see 'evidence' is anything that points in a particular direction. It may not be conclusive evidence but, as far as I can see, if a scenario such as this makes more 'sense' with God than without, then that counts as evidence for God.

Like I said, this isn't my only evidence, but it's part of the picture.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #108 - November 20, 2008, 12:15 AM

Quote from: Hassan on November 16, 2008, 09:50 AM
Quote from: sparky on November 16, 2008, 09:16 AM
That isn't true. You can weigh up evidence as you do for anything else. Normally, you would not make what you like or don't like as the final decider for what is true.

If I ignore the fact that I find the claims of Christianity absurd, unjust and irrational - and look only at the "evidence" (The Bible) I find it equally unconvincing.

Perhaps there is some evidence I have missed - and perhaps you could point me towards it.

I'm not sure what you mean by referring to 'the bible' as evidence. Christians don't present the bible as evidence in the same way that muslims do with the Quran. They don't say that it is the miraculous product of illiterate people nor do they (generally) point to miraculous scientific predictions nor do they point to its 'beauty'. Because the Quran was Mohammed's only 'sign', its 'miraculous' nature is key to the claims of Islam.

On such a basis, I wouldn't find the bible convincing either.

The importance of the bible for me is in consistently telling a story about God and his relation to people (written by multiple authors over hundreds of years) that provides an explanation for my experiences in life such as described above. I.e. within the context of a reality as described by the bible, the things I observe - both outside and inside of myself - make sense. I yet to find an alternative description of reality that makes more sense.

In addition, the bible contains the records of eye witness accounts to miraculous events in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Assuming that I haven't prejudged what can and can't happen, I find it easier to believe that these accounts are true than that they aren't.

Cheers,
sparky
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #109 - November 20, 2008, 12:21 AM

Quote from: Hassan on November 16, 2008, 10:29 AM
Quote from: sparky on November 16, 2008, 09:16 AM

Possibly. But I don't think they are very good grounds for deciding on what is true. Given what we have discussed about morality, I don't see how you can describe where you have landed as not absurd or reasonable - and 'justice' doesn't exist at all.

I agree and if there is a Just and loving God, then 'where I have landed' is not a satisfactory place - which is why I am still doing my best to understand - but as yet I have found nothing that even remotely satisfies me. And as I said to Hassan1 recently - I'd rather admit I simply don't know than believe in something I find unbelievable.

I couldn't agree more. I can only tell you why Christianity satisfies me, the rest is up to you.

Quote from: Hassan
And I have to admit that I have no indisputable evidence to dismiss the possibility that there is no God - in which case, I have to accept that we may indeed live in a world that is absurd and without justice.

Not a nice thought - I know - but just because it is not a nice 'place to be' is not a good reason to accept beliefs I find unbelievable.

The problem is that I don't believe that you will ever be able to accept that. I've never met anyone who really has. Of course, it's easy on an internet forum to present nihilistic arguments that morality and values don't exist but actually to live that way? To me that's a big puzzle. That we should be pretty much incapable of living according to how the world really is.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #110 - November 20, 2008, 12:23 AM

Quote from: Hassan
Quote from: sparky
You still haven't given me any reason to think that a world without God makes anything but less sense.

That's because I don't think the world without God makes more sense.

Doesn't mean it's not actually the case though.

Shouldn't we believe the things that make the 'most sense'?
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #111 - November 20, 2008, 12:31 AM

Quote from: Hassan on November 16, 2008, 10:40 AM
Quote from: sparky on November 16, 2008, 09:16 AM
Sure - that's the principle reason I come to discuss on CEM, FFI, RDnet etc. I don't get my ideas challenged by going to church! But in all these discussions, I have yet to encounter a serious reason to believe that it isn't true. Of course, as Jack says, that could be just my 'barrier' but I figure that if it really isn't true, something, sometime, will get through.

Actually I don't think internet forums are the best place to reflect on one's own beliefs. Most of the time we are too busy trying to prove the other person is 'wrong' or that we are 'right' to really question ourselves. It becomes an obsessive 'game' where our ego just takes control.

I mean have you really sat down by yourself and really considered that your beliefs may actually be wrong?

I don't agree with your assessment of internet forums. Many of the posts I read cause me to reflect and think about what I believe. Much of this reflecting happens when I am by myself (or even worse - when I'm with my wife which doesn't appreciate as I completely drift off in the middle of a conversation...). If at all possible, I like to sleep on responses before I post them. That helps to think things through and avoid the kind of reaction you saw from me earlier in the thread.

But for my beliefs to be wrong, there would have to be some kind of inconsistency between them and the real world. That's what I haven't found yet. Most of the contributors to CEM seem to think that there isn't enough evidence to establish my beliefs as true but then they seem to be happy believing in a real 'good' and 'bad' without any evidence at all. This makes me think that they are drawing the 'evidence' lines in the wrong place!

Cheers,
sparky
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #112 - November 20, 2008, 08:15 AM

Quote from: sparky on November 16, 2008, 09:33 AM
That the actions of my friends killers and those of herself are neither right nor wrong in any objective sense and my personal revulsion is just that, a personal revulsion.

Good lord, where in the hell did I say that?

You seem to be holding on to this arguement with desperation because the way I see it it is all you have.

You don't need god to objectively see what is good and was is not.

Personal pain is a good teacher, the golden rule or personal pain for you and to you by others, only you and religious folks seem to believe that man is not good enough to see this without god thrown into the mix.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #113 - November 20, 2008, 09:29 AM

Quote from: sojournerlumus on November 16, 2008, 07:16 PM
Quote from: sparky on November 15, 2008, 07:52 PM
Quote from: sojournerlumus on November 14, 2008, 08:55 PM
Plain as a pikestaff. A best-fudge construct to counteract our apparent, worst excesses at this stage in our long evolution.

There are no 'worst excesses' though.

Of course there are. This is not to impute blame via a subjective morality though.
I'd say that deliberately killing or creating the conditions for the killing of an awful lot of Armenians, Jews, Cambodians, Tutsi, Darfuri, etc is a tad excessive. Or the useless slaughter of 9 million men in the tranches of WW1, 2 million in Iran/Iraq, etc. I could give other egs.
The fact is though, we seem to breed like rabbits after such excesses, rather excessively in fact, and end up doubling the population within 2 generations. We are born to excess and some are worse than others.

Excessive as compared to what? Why should killing lots of people be 'excessive' and a few people not? 'Excessive' means 'more than the norm'. What is the 'norm' and what is your evidence that it should be considered the 'norm'.

And you used the word 'worst'. 'Worst' compared to what? Those who did the killing often thought they were doing something good. Why should your behavioural preference prevail over theirs?
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #114 - November 20, 2008, 09:40 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on November 20, 2008, 08:15 AM

Quote from: sparky on November 16, 2008, 09:33 AM
That the actions of my friends killers and those of herself are neither right nor wrong in any objective sense and my personal revulsion is just that, a personal revulsion.

Good lord, where in the hell did I say that?

You seem to be holding on to this arguement with desperation because the way I see it it is all you have.

You don't need god to objectively see what is good and was is not.

Personal pain is a good teacher, the golden rule or personal pain for you and to you by others, only you and religious folks seem to believe that man is not good enough to see this without god thrown into the mix.

When we say that something is 'objective' we normally mean that it exists outside of ourselves. If we want to claim that something is objectively good we should expect to be able to provide evidence that someone else should also consider it to be 'good'. If God exists, I can see a reason for believing that something might be objectively good. If you think that the world makes more sense without God then my question is 'what is your evidence for what you think is 'objectively good''? If you can't provide this evidence, then your notion of 'good' only exists inside your head - i.e. it is subjective - not objective. No different to any other personal preference you might have.

The people who killed my friend also thought they were doing something 'good'. Why should your notion of 'good' be correct and theirs false?

To be honest, this is a bizaare time to talk about man being 'good enough'. If someone can shoot my friend in broad daylight, I make no assumptions about man being 'good enough' at all.

And pain teaches me only that certain things cause me pain. Some people seem to actually like being caused pain so it doesn't seem that I can generalise my dislike of pain to everyone. In addition, it doesn't teach me whether I should prioritise my avoidance of pain over anothers nor does it teach me whether avoiding someone else's pain should be more important than persuing other goals I might have.

This isn't new, Berbs. Have a look at the threads about morality over at RDnet. Let me know when you find an atheist who has managed to find a true objective morality.

Cheers,
sparky
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #115 - November 20, 2008, 10:55 AM

Don't tell me some of them are daft enough to keep trying to find one. Should have more bloody sense.

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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #116 - November 20, 2008, 10:58 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on November 20, 2008, 10:55 AM
Don't tell me some of them are daft enough to keep trying o find one. Should have more bloody sense.

Couldn't agree more.

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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #117 - November 20, 2008, 11:01 AM

Who was the nutter c 1900 who tried to reason out a rationally consistent moral code from scratch? I think it was Kant but I CQR. Very intelligent bugger but also colossally stupid. Really he should have known better, but that was before Godel when everyone was religious about logic.

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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #118 - November 20, 2008, 03:12 PM

Quote from: sojournerlumus on November 20, 2008, 10:58 AM
Quote from: osmanthus on November 20, 2008, 10:55 AM
Don't tell me some of them are daft enough to keep trying o find one. Should have more bloody sense.

Couldn't agree more.

And yet you can't help talking about 'worst excesses'. Go figure!
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Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
Reply #119 - November 20, 2008, 04:12 PM

Quote from: sparky on November 20, 2008, 12:15 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by referring to 'the bible' as evidence.

What is the evidence for the truth of Christianity?
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