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 Topic: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.

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  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #120 - November 20, 2008, 04:18 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 20, 2008, 04:12 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 20, 2008, 12:15 AM
    I'm not sure what you mean by referring to 'the bible' as evidence.


    What is the evidence for the truth of Christianity?


    Why, the Turin shroud of course! Wink
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #121 - November 20, 2008, 04:20 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 20, 2008, 12:21 AM
    The problem is that I don't believe that you will ever be able to accept that.


    Maybe - maybe not.

    But not finding a situation satisfactory is hardly a good reason to  believe in something else one finds unsatisfactory.

    Quote from: sparky on November 20, 2008, 12:21 AM
    it's easy on an internet forum to present nihilistic arguments that morality and values don't exist but actually to live that way?


    I do believe in morality and values - whether these are my own subjective decisions - or something more - I don't know.

    I certainly don't need Christianity or the Bible to be a moral person.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #122 - November 20, 2008, 04:21 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 20, 2008, 12:23 AM
    Quote from: Hassan
    Quote from: sparky
    You still haven't given me any reason to think that a world without God makes anything but less sense.


    That's because I don't think the world without God makes more sense.

    Doesn't mean it's not actually the case though.


    Shouldn't we believe the things that make the 'most sense'?


    Which is why I believe in God - because it makes sense - to me.

    But I'm not arrogant enough to insist that others must see it the way I do - and I have to also admit that I may be wrong in my belief and there may indeed be no God.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #123 - November 20, 2008, 05:11 PM
    Quote from: Hassan
    Quote from: sparky
    The problem is that I don't believe that you will ever be able to accept that.



    Maybe - maybe not.

    But not finding a situation satisfactory is hardly a good reason to  believe in something else one finds unsatisfactory.


    The situation is rationally unsatisfactory.  If there is a rational alternative then I think that is a pretty good reason to believe in it.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #124 - November 20, 2008, 05:16 PM
    Quote from: Hassan
    Quote from: sparky
    it's easy on an internet forum to present nihilistic arguments that morality and values don't exist but actually to live that way?

    I do believe in morality and values - whether these are my own subjective decisions - or something more - I don't know.

    I certainly don't need Christianity or the Bible to be a moral person.


    If morality and values are your own subjective decisions, you have no more reason for believing them as a part of reality than you do the 'fairies at the bottom of the garden'.  Subjective morality is rationally indistinguishable from nihilism.

    From what you have said so far you have no way of knowing what a 'moral person' is at all so I have no idea how you can claim to be one!  I suspect that you mean that you think of yourself as a 'moral person'.  But as far as I know, an axe murderer could feel that way about himself as well.  If you're setting your own standards, it's hardly surprising that you find yourself 'moral'.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #125 - November 20, 2008, 05:23 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 20, 2008, 04:21 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 20, 2008, 12:23 AM
    Quote from: Hassan
    Quote from: sparky
    You still haven't given me any reason to think that a world without God makes anything but less sense.


    That's because I don't think the world without God makes more sense.

    Doesn't mean it's not actually the case though.


    Shouldn't we believe the things that make the 'most sense'?


    Which is why I believe in God - because it makes sense - to me.

    But I'm not arrogant enough to insist that others must see it the way I do - and I have to also admit that I may be wrong in my belief and there may indeed be no God.

    Who is 'insisting'?

    What kind of characteristics does the God that you believe in have?  How do you know them?  Is he personal or not?  Does he/has he communicated with people?  Is he the creator?  Is he good?  Is he knowable?  Can we relate to him?
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #126 - November 20, 2008, 06:11 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 20, 2008, 05:11 PM
    The situation is rationally unsatisfactory.  If there is a rational alternative then I think that is a pretty good reason to believe in it.


    Good plan - let me know when you find a rational alternative  Afro
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #127 - November 20, 2008, 06:26 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 20, 2008, 05:16 PM
      If you're setting your own standards, it's hardly surprising that you find yourself 'moral'.


    I make moral decisions as best I can using my conscience, heart and mind. I admit it is not perfect.

    But it is better than any alternative - imho.


  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #128 - November 20, 2008, 06:28 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 20, 2008, 05:23 PM
    What kind of characteristics does the God that you believe in have?  How do you know them?  Is he personal or not?  Does he/has he communicated with people?  Is he the creator?  Is he good?  Is he knowable?  Can we relate to him?


    I don't know the answer to any of these questions.

    Do you?

    How?
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #129 - November 20, 2008, 06:49 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 20, 2008, 06:28 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 20, 2008, 05:23 PM
    What kind of characteristics does the God that you believe in have?  How do you know them?  Is he personal or not?  Does he/has he communicated with people?  Is he the creator?  Is he good?  Is he knowable?  Can we relate to him?


    I don't know the answer to any of these questions.

    Do you?

    How?


    I think the 'unknowable' is about right, which cancels all the others. I think he means how do you 'see' God, even with an unknowable God, you can't help but imagine and form ideas.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #130 - November 20, 2008, 07:30 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 20, 2008, 09:29 AM
    Quote from: sojournerlumus on November 16, 2008, 07:16 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 15, 2008, 07:52 PM
    Quote from: sojournerlumus on November 14, 2008, 08:55 PM
    Plain as a pikestaff. A best-fudge construct to counteract our apparent, worst excesses at this stage in our long evolution.

    There are no 'worst excesses' though.

    Of course there are. This is not to impute blame via a subjective morality though.
    I'd say that deliberately killing or creating the conditions for the killing of an awful lot of Armenians, Jews, Cambodians, Tutsi, Darfuri, etc is a tad excessive. Or the useless slaughter of 9 million men in the tranches of WW1, 2 million in Iran/Iraq, etc. I could give other egs.
    The fact is though, we seem to breed like rabbits after such excesses, rather excessively in fact, and end up doubling the population within 2 generations. We are born to excess and some are worse than others.

    Excessive as compared to what?  Why should killing lots of people be 'excessive' and a few people not?  'Excessive' means 'more than the norm'.  What is the 'norm' and what is your evidence that it should be considered the 'norm'.

    And you used the word 'worst'.  'Worst' compared to what?  Those who did the killing often thought they were doing something good.  Why should your behavioural preference prevail over theirs?

    You appear to have overlooked the word 'apparent'. Would you like to reconsider your last post in the light of that?
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #131 - November 20, 2008, 08:01 PM
    btw Sparky you have yet to explain how your objective source for what is right and wrong is communicated to you? Does God whisper it to you? Do you spin a bottle and God stops it at the right place? How does it work in practice and on specific issues?

    Let's take Gay Bishops for example - is it right or wrong for the church to allow them? Exactly how does God tell you?
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #132 - November 21, 2008, 05:24 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 20, 2008, 06:11 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 20, 2008, 05:11 PM
    The situation is rationally unsatisfactory.  If there is a rational alternative then I think that is a pretty good reason to believe in it.


    Good plan - let me know when you find a rational alternative  Afro


    Like I said.  I've yet to find a reason not to believe what I believe....
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #133 - November 21, 2008, 05:31 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 20, 2008, 06:26 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 20, 2008, 05:16 PM
      If you're setting your own standards, it's hardly surprising that you find yourself 'moral'.


    I make moral decisions as best I can using my conscience, heart and mind. I admit it is not perfect.

    But it is better than any alternative - imho.


    'Not perfect' is nonsensical.  With no objective right and wrong there is no 'perfect'.  There is just 'behaviour' and no way to classify it.  It is also nonsense to call it 'better' because there is nothing to compare it to.  There is just 'behaviour'.

    You choose your 'conscience, heart and mind', someone else chooses the life of a 'prophet' 1400 years ago.  Neither of you has evidence why one should be followed rather than the other and neither of you can claim to be 'better' than the other.

    Unless the God you believe in is actually relevant for your moral decisions, I can't see how your life makes any more sense than the atheists.

    Cheers,
    sparky
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #134 - November 21, 2008, 05:33 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 20, 2008, 06:28 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 20, 2008, 05:23 PM
    What kind of characteristics does the God that you believe in have?  How do you know them?  Is he personal or not?  Does he/has he communicated with people?  Is he the creator?  Is he good?  Is he knowable?  Can we relate to him?


    I don't know the answer to any of these questions.

    Do you?

    How?

    You said that it made more sense to you for God to exist.  In what sense does the God you believe in help to resolve the problem of right and wrong?
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #135 - November 21, 2008, 05:50 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 20, 2008, 08:01 PM
    btw Sparky you have yet to explain how your objective source for what is right and wrong is communicated to you? Does God whisper it to you? Do you spin a bottle and God stops it at the right place? How does it work in practice and on specific issues?

    Let's take Gay Bishops for example - is it right or wrong for the church to allow them? Exactly how does God tell you?


    I don't understand why you feel the need to be facetious.  If you don't want to discuss further, just say so.

    But I answered the question already:

    Quote from: sparky
    I said it was the Christian God, so yes, the information about the Christian God is in the bible.  What's there is a pattern of love for mankind as shown in the life of Jesus that we are called to reflect in our behaviour towards others.  Right is loving others, wrong is not loving them.  It's not more complicated than that.


    Yes, in the bible there are more specific instructions as well but each of these is working out that principle of sacrificial love that is shown in the life of Christ.  It's a principle that I find highly practical and useful in daily life and resolves almost all daily moral choices.

    Cheers,
    sparky
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #136 - November 21, 2008, 06:42 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 21, 2008, 05:31 PM
    You choose your 'conscience, heart and mind', someone else chooses the life of a 'prophet' 1400 years ago.  Neither of you has evidence why one should be followed rather than the other and neither of you can claim to be 'better' than the other.


    And you choose, Christ the son of God.

    So what is your evidence?
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #137 - November 21, 2008, 06:43 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 21, 2008, 05:33 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 20, 2008, 06:28 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 20, 2008, 05:23 PM
    What kind of characteristics does the God that you believe in have?  How do you know them?  Is he personal or not?  Does he/has he communicated with people?  Is he the creator?  Is he good?  Is he knowable?  Can we relate to him?


    I don't know the answer to any of these questions.

    Do you?

    How?

    You said that it made more sense to you for God to exist.  In what sense does the God you believe in help to resolve the problem of right and wrong?


    I don't know.

    Now could you answer the questions I asked.

    Do you know the answers to the questions you asked above?

    How do you know?
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #138 - November 21, 2008, 06:47 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 21, 2008, 05:50 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 20, 2008, 08:01 PM
    btw Sparky you have yet to explain how your objective source for what is right and wrong is communicated to you? Does God whisper it to you? Do you spin a bottle and God stops it at the right place? How does it work in practice and on specific issues?

    Let's take Gay Bishops for example - is it right or wrong for the church to allow them? Exactly how does God tell you?


    I don't understand why you feel the need to be facetious.  If you don't want to discuss further, just say so.

    But I answered the question already:

    Quote from: sparky
    I said it was the Christian God, so yes, the information about the Christian God is in the bible.  What's there is a pattern of love for mankind as shown in the life of Jesus that we are called to reflect in our behaviour towards others.  Right is loving others, wrong is not loving them.  It's not more complicated than that.


    Yes, in the bible there are more specific instructions as well but each of these is working out that principle of sacrificial love that is shown in the life of Christ.  It's a principle that I find highly practical and useful in daily life and resolves almost all daily moral choices.

    Cheers,
    sparky


    I'm not being facetious - and you didn't answer the question. Your answer above does not explain how you know what is right from wrong in specific situations.

    For example: Gay Bishops.

    Please tell me if it is right or wrong?

    And tell me how do you know?

    You are the one claiming that your objective source is superior to my use of conscience.

    So let me hear you answer the question.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #139 - November 21, 2008, 07:35 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 21, 2008, 05:24 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 20, 2008, 06:11 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 20, 2008, 05:11 PM
    The situation is rationally unsatisfactory.  If there is a rational alternative then I think that is a pretty good reason to believe in it.


    Good plan - let me know when you find a rational alternative  Afro


    Like I said.  I've yet to find a reason not to believe what I believe....

    But have you found a reason to believe it? You don't have to find a reason not to believe it.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #140 - November 22, 2008, 09:27 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 21, 2008, 06:42 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 21, 2008, 05:31 PM
    You choose your 'conscience, heart and mind', someone else chooses the life of a 'prophet' 1400 years ago.  Neither of you has evidence why one should be followed rather than the other and neither of you can claim to be 'better' than the other.


    And you choose, Christ the son of God.

    So what is your evidence?

    I've already answered that also.  Firstly because the world makes 'more sense' if it is true and secondly because people say they saw him live, die and rise again and went to their deaths maintaining their testimony.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #141 - November 22, 2008, 09:31 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 21, 2008, 06:43 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 21, 2008, 05:33 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 20, 2008, 06:28 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 20, 2008, 05:23 PM
    What kind of characteristics does the God that you believe in have?  How do you know them?  Is he personal or not?  Does he/has he communicated with people?  Is he the creator?  Is he good?  Is he knowable?  Can we relate to him?


    I don't know the answer to any of these questions.

    Do you?

    How?

    You said that it made more sense to you for God to exist.  In what sense does the God you believe in help to resolve the problem of right and wrong?


    I don't know.

    Now could you answer the questions I asked.

    Do you know the answers to the questions you asked above?

    How do you know?

    I answered that already as well.  The character of God is revealed in the bible.

    The credibility of the bible is established by the person of Jesus Christ.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #142 - November 22, 2008, 09:37 AM
    Quote from: sojournerlumus on November 20, 2008, 07:30 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 20, 2008, 09:29 AM
    Quote from: sojournerlumus on November 16, 2008, 07:16 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 15, 2008, 07:52 PM
    Quote from: sojournerlumus on November 14, 2008, 08:55 PM
    Plain as a pikestaff. A best-fudge construct to counteract our apparent, worst excesses at this stage in our long evolution.

    There are no 'worst excesses' though.

    Of course there are. This is not to impute blame via a subjective morality though.
    I'd say that deliberately killing or creating the conditions for the killing of an awful lot of Armenians, Jews, Cambodians, Tutsi, Darfuri, etc is a tad excessive. Or the useless slaughter of 9 million men in the tranches of WW1, 2 million in Iran/Iraq, etc. I could give other egs.
    The fact is though, we seem to breed like rabbits after such excesses, rather excessively in fact, and end up doubling the population within 2 generations. We are born to excess and some are worse than others.

    Excessive as compared to what?  Why should killing lots of people be 'excessive' and a few people not?  'Excessive' means 'more than the norm'.  What is the 'norm' and what is your evidence that it should be considered the 'norm'.

    And you used the word 'worst'.  'Worst' compared to what?  Those who did the killing often thought they were doing something good.  Why should your behavioural preference prevail over theirs?

    You appear to have overlooked the word 'apparent'. Would you like to reconsider your last post in the light of that?

    Not at all.  If there are no 'worst excesses' in an objective sense then they are not 'apparent' at all.  If you are just talking about what is 'apparent' to you, then your statement is entirely meaningless.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #143 - November 22, 2008, 09:54 AM
    Quote from: sparky on November 22, 2008, 09:27 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 21, 2008, 06:42 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 21, 2008, 05:31 PM
    You choose your 'conscience, heart and mind', someone else chooses the life of a 'prophet' 1400 years ago.  Neither of you has evidence why one should be followed rather than the other and neither of you can claim to be 'better' than the other.


    And you choose, Christ the son of God.

    So what is your evidence?

    I've already answered that also.  Firstly because the world makes 'more sense' if it is true and secondly because people say they saw him live, die and rise again and went to their deaths maintaining their testimony.


    I also think the world makes more sense if there is a God - but it seems I am not as certain about it as you are. However I do not see how this is evidence for Christianity.

    How does it support the belief that Jesus is God's son and we are born into sin because of the sin of Adam, that we needed God to send his son to die on the cross to save us etc... To me the specific claims of Christianity make little or no sense and is one of the most compelling reasons to reject Christianity.

    As for the "evidence"  of the testimonies of people who witnessed him, I'm sorry but I have no way of knowing that these people even said what they are reported to have said - let alone whether they are telling the truth.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #144 - November 22, 2008, 09:58 AM
    Quote from: sparky on November 22, 2008, 09:31 AM

    The credibility of the bible is established by the person of Jesus Christ.


    What do you mean - I don't understand?
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #145 - November 22, 2008, 10:00 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 21, 2008, 06:47 PM
    You didn't answer the question. Your answer above does not explain how you know what is right from wrong in specific situations.

    For example: Gay Bishops.

    Please tell me if it is right or wrong?

    And tell me how do you know?

    You are the one claiming that your objective source is superior to my use of conscience.

    So let me hear you answer the question.


    I just thought I'd re-post these questions in case you missed them.

    Gay Bishops?

    Right or Wrong?

  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #146 - November 22, 2008, 12:51 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 21, 2008, 06:47 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 21, 2008, 05:50 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 20, 2008, 08:01 PM
    btw Sparky you have yet to explain how your objective source for what is right and wrong is communicated to you? Does God whisper it to you? Do you spin a bottle and God stops it at the right place? How does it work in practice and on specific issues?

    Let's take Gay Bishops for example - is it right or wrong for the church to allow them? Exactly how does God tell you?


    I don't understand why you feel the need to be facetious.  If you don't want to discuss further, just say so.

    But I answered the question already:

    Quote from: sparky
    I said it was the Christian God, so yes, the information about the Christian God is in the bible.  What's there is a pattern of love for mankind as shown in the life of Jesus that we are called to reflect in our behaviour towards others.  Right is loving others, wrong is not loving them.  It's not more complicated than that.


    Yes, in the bible there are more specific instructions as well but each of these is working out that principle of sacrificial love that is shown in the life of Christ.  It's a principle that I find highly practical and useful in daily life and resolves almost all daily moral choices.

    Cheers,
    sparky


    I'm not being facetious - and you didn't answer the question. Your answer above does not explain how you know what is right from wrong in specific situations.

    For example: Gay Bishops.

    Please tell me if it is right or wrong?

    And tell me how do you know?

    You are the one claiming that your objective source is superior to my use of conscience.

    So let me hear you answer the question.

    Your 'spinning the bottle' comment was a facetious one.

    Where have I claimed that my 'objective source is superior'?  I have claimed that it is 1. objective, and 2. true.  I have also explained the reasons why I think that it is true.

    I have also told you the source of my morality.  I have no intention of spelling out the morality of particular scenarios for you and certainly not 'Gay Bishops' which would be a thread derailer.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #147 - November 22, 2008, 01:19 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 22, 2008, 12:51 PM
    Where have I claimed that my 'objective source is superior'?  I have claimed that it is 1. objective, and 2. true.  I have also explained the reasons why I think that it is true.

    I have also told you the source of my morality.  I have no intention of spelling out the morality of particular scenarios for you and certainly not 'Gay Bishops' which would be a thread derailer.


    Is it right or wrong to allow Gay Bishops is not a thread derailer.

    I need to see how your claim to know right from wrong using your objective source works in practise. If you can't tell me how it works in practise - then how can I take your claim to know what is right and wrong seriously.

    You are the one that came into this thread picking apart Berbs post and calling her claims "absurd" and you are the one who made the claim that one cannot know right from wrong unless they use God as their objective source.

    You need to back-up that claim with specifics and show me that your 'objective source' is not also absurd.

    You have been asked many times - but your answers always deal in generalities and do not answer the question of how exactly you know.

    Gay Bishops is a specific example that would help me understand how this 'objective source' of yours helps you to 'know' what is right and wrong.
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #148 - November 22, 2008, 01:24 PM
    Quote from: sparky on November 22, 2008, 09:31 AM
    The credibility of the bible is established by the person of Jesus Christ.


    I asked what you mean by this - but you didn't elaborate.

    Do you mean the Bible is true because Jesus was a wonderful guy? (And we know that Jesus was a wonderful guy - how?)
  • Re: Why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation.
     Reply #149 - November 22, 2008, 01:44 PM
    Quote from: Hassan
    I also think the world makes more sense if there is a God - but it seems I am not as certain about it as you are.


    And yet when I asked you specifically about how the world makes more sense if there is a God, you said 'I don't know'.  Apparently what you observe indicates that God should exist but doesn't tell you anything about what he might be like.

    Quote from: Hassan
    However I do not see how this is evidence for Christianity.

     

    Because Christianity presents a picture of reality in which the problems of right and wrong that we face in every day life 'make sense'.  I haven't found any other explanation that achieves the same.

    Quote from: Hassan
    How does it support the belief that Jesus is God's son and we are born into sin because of the sin of Adam, that we needed God to send his son to die on the cross to save us etc... To me the specific claims of Christianity make little or no sense and is one of the most compelling reasons to reject Christianity.


    Because these are all element of that reality - each linked to the other - which, taken as a whole, 'make sense' of what I see around me and 'in' me.

    You've mentioned this problem with being 'born into sin' before.  For me that's one of the most obvious.  That's what my conscience tells me all the time!  I am in fact a git.  And my 'gitiness' goes deep.  Moreover, I see the same traits in pretty much everyone else I have ever met.  Someone tells me 'well that's no surprise because that's the way all people have been since Adam' and suddenly it 'makes sense'.  We are this mix of dignity and gitiness.  So if someone else tells me 'there is no right and wrong except what you have made up in your own head' and my conscience is effectively lying to me by claiming that I have broken some kind of 'law' and the world makes signficantly less sense.

    Quote from: Hassan
    As for the "evidence"  of the testimonies of people who witnessed him, I'm sorry but I have no way of knowing that these people even said what they are reported to have said - let alone whether they are telling the truth.


    Ok.  I don't agree that you have 'no way of knowing' but you asked for how I know.  I can't speak for you.
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