Yet another 'Apostate'

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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #30 - November 12, 2008, 10:24 AM

Elle, Allah abrogated some of them himself.

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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #31 - November 12, 2008, 10:26 AM

Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 10:20 AM
OK, heartbomb. The Qur'an is the world of Allah. If anyone abrogates or denies any one of Allah's commands, as in the Qur'an, is he blaspheming Allah? And is such a person an apostate?

I've got to go shopping in a few minutes so I'll be back later! Hope you can give me a definitive answer and not vague run-around. I think that is straight enough a question for you?

Actually, elle for practising Muslim, apostate is a very heavy word. And they generally don't throw it just like that. Denying some comand etc. constitutes sin, some minor sins, some major sins. Like some people don't pray five times a day, or few don't fast in Ramadhan. According to Muslims, they are sinning but they are not apostate. Denying existence of Allah, denying status of Mohammed as a prophet etc. will make the person as apostate.
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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #32 - November 12, 2008, 10:32 AM

Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 10:20 AM
OK, heartbomb. The Qur'an is the world of Allah. If anyone abrogates or denies any one of Allah's commands, as in the Qur'an, is he blaspheming Allah? And is such a person an apostate?

I've got to go shopping in a few minutes so I'll be back later! Hope you can give me a definitive answer and not vague run-around. I think that is straight enough a question for you?

An apostate is someone who completely denies the religion. If someone comes upto you and says "I am an ex Muslim", then he is an apostate. Same goes for ex Christian, ex Jew, etc.

Abrogation is different to denial. I know of many Muslims who break one small rule in the religion often don't think of it as a big deal (and the extent of it is dependent on themselves). For example, I have a Muslim friend who is very much into his religion, yet he has no problem with trying alcohol. I guess it's not about apostacy or abrogation in these cases, more about hypocrisy?

I think learn2bcalm summed it up pretty nicely.
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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #33 - November 12, 2008, 10:37 AM

Short version for Elle: if you deny the shahada you're an apostate. Otherwise you're just a naughty Muslim.

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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #34 - November 12, 2008, 11:01 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on November 12, 2008, 10:37 AM
Short version for Elle: if you deny the shahada you're an apostate. Otherwise you're just a naughty Muslim.

Yeah, The same way I am a naughty hindu
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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #35 - November 12, 2008, 12:47 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on November 12, 2008, 10:24 AM
Elle, Allah abrogated some of them himself.

Yes, that is right but Mohammed was the last of the Prophets of Allah. He was the Seal of the Prophets. So His abrogation were the last of the abrogation. No one else has the right to abrogate the Qur'an? Is that incorrect or correct?
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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #36 - November 12, 2008, 01:01 PM

Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 12:47 PM
Quote from: osmanthus on November 12, 2008, 10:24 AM
Elle, Allah abrogated some of them himself.

Yes, that is right but Mohammed was the last of the Prophets of Allah. He was the Seal of the Prophets. So His abrogation were the last of the abrogation. No one else has the right to abrogate the Qur'an? Is that incorrect or correct?

Correct no one can abrogate the koran. But it is not so simple and definitive. You will have people arguing as to what abrogates what or whether a certain abrogation is valid.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #37 - November 12, 2008, 01:05 PM

Quote from: learn2bcalm on November 12, 2008, 10:26 AM
Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 10:20 AM
OK, heartbomb. The Qur'an is the world of Allah. If anyone abrogates or denies any one of Allah's commands, as in the Qur'an, is he blaspheming Allah? And is such a person an apostate?

I've got to go shopping in a few minutes so I'll be back later! Hope you can give me a definitive answer and not vague run-around. I think that is straight enough a question for you?

Actually, elle for practising Muslim, apostate is a very heavy word. And they generally don't throw it just like that. Denying some comand etc. constitutes sin, some minor sins, some major sins. Like some people don't pray five times a day, or few don't fast in Ramadhan. According to Muslims, they are sinning but they are not apostate. Denying existence of Allah, denying status of Mohammed as a prophet etc. will make the person as apostate.

The worst Three sins in islam are Murder (killing the wrong person), Adultery and Apostasy (and everything leading to apostasy).

* Murder you can buy pay your way out of it in some conditions.
* For Adultery you are screwed. Koran recommends flogging but muhammad stoned. So flogging is now considered a lower bound punishment.
* For apostasy/denial of allah/denial of nabi, koran stated that allah can forgive any sin except this one.

Muslims are brought up believing that monotheism is more important then air, and that the islamic god is the only option. Even though some grow not to believe the ruse, they still do not throw the word lightly and they often refuse to commit to the step of apostasy.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #38 - November 12, 2008, 03:48 PM

Baal, please define precisely, "killing the wrong person." Who is a "Wrong Person?"
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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #39 - November 12, 2008, 03:51 PM

Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 03:48 PM
Baal, please define precisely, "killing the wrong person." Who is a "Wrong Person?"

An innocent, the most innocent being a male muslim, the least being a female idolatrous slave

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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #40 - November 12, 2008, 04:37 PM

kafir or unbelievers are never innocent.

Qur'an:9:5   "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Qur'an:9:112   "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."

Qur'an:9:29   "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

Ishaq:325   "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious."

Qur'an:8:39   "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

Qur'an:8:39   "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."
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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #41 - November 12, 2008, 04:38 PM

Then why don't you convert already elle? (sarcasm)

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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #42 - November 12, 2008, 04:42 PM

Elle,
Quran is a book wher ein you can find whatever you want.

What do you think about this?

[060:008] God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just.
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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #43 - November 12, 2008, 04:43 PM

awais, Baal said,
"The worst Three sins in islam are Murder (killing the wrong person), Adultery and Apostasy (and everything leading to apostasy)."

I was just clarifying who the wrong person might be. Now I have stated, all Kafir are fair game. Kafir are never innocent because they are unbelievers. Am I incorrect?
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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #44 - November 12, 2008, 04:45 PM

yes, and 9/11 and 7/7 were just. (sarcasm)

no, you're wrong.

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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #45 - November 12, 2008, 04:46 PM

Nopes, If you study fiqh of Hanafi Madhab, death of Kafir is also punishable by death unless the Kafir forgives it in the lieu of bloodmoney. Other 3 Madhabs don't support that.
Blood money paid for Kafir is less than that of Muslims.

Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 04:43 PM
awais, Baal said,
"The worst Three sins in islam are Murder (killing the wrong person), Adultery and Apostasy (and everything leading to apostasy)."

I was just clarifying who the wrong person might be. Now I have stated, all Kafir are fair game. Kafir are never innocent because they are unbelievers. Am I incorrect?
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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #46 - November 12, 2008, 04:47 PM

Quote from: learn2bcalm on November 12, 2008, 04:46 PM
Blood money paid for Kafir is less than that of Muslims.

Exactly what I meant.

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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #47 - November 12, 2008, 04:49 PM

Quote from: learn2bcalm on November 12, 2008, 04:42 PM
[060:008] God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just.

That is exactly the verse we used to understand that a muslim may not fight against the 'kaafir' country that hosts him. Terrorism and shit are haram.

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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #48 - November 12, 2008, 04:49 PM

Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 04:43 PM
all Kafir are fair game. Kafir are never innocent because they are unbelievers. Am I incorrect?

Yes, you are incorrect.
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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #49 - November 12, 2008, 04:52 PM

Awais,
It is strange, out of the whole world I am acting as an Islamic apologetic. But honesty can not be and should not be compromised.

Quote from: awais.x on November 12, 2008, 04:49 PM
Quote from: learn2bcalm on November 12, 2008, 04:42 PM
[060:008] God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just.

That is exactly the verse we used to understand that a muslim may not fight against the 'kaafir' country that hosts him. Terrorism and shit are haram.
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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #50 - November 12, 2008, 04:53 PM

I know, innit weird? If only the muslims could see this.

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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #51 - November 12, 2008, 04:57 PM

Quote from: Hassan on November 12, 2008, 04:49 PM
Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 04:43 PM
all Kafir are fair game. Kafir are never innocent because they are unbelievers. Am I incorrect?

Yes, you are incorrect.

Thank you Hassan for that comment!
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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #52 - November 12, 2008, 05:00 PM

Quote from: awais.x on November 12, 2008, 04:53 PM
I know, innit weird? If only the muslims could see this.

Yeah, Where is Goldie and Hassan1?
Awais, I am critical to all the faiths however I would really like to understand what they actually say, rather than what I believe of them. I am on this forum because I defend the people's right to make their choices: let them be Islamic apostates, or gays or a female under taliban or a low caste Hindu. And this forum looks like a good platform and good mix of ppl to do that.
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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #53 - November 12, 2008, 05:05 PM

"Maashaa' Allah"

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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #54 - November 12, 2008, 05:07 PM

Quote from: awais.x on November 12, 2008, 05:05 PM
"Maashaa' Allah"

JazakaAllahKhair Awais
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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #55 - November 12, 2008, 05:07 PM

wa iyyak

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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #56 - November 12, 2008, 05:10 PM

Quote from: awais.x on November 12, 2008, 05:07 PM
wa iyyak

Awais, I just read that you want to flirt some females. That is a major sin bro, these ideas are whispers of shaytan. Bro, please lower the gaze and avoid the fitna. If you fear Zina, then get married to a pious sister in Islam.
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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #57 - November 12, 2008, 05:12 PM

Quote from: learn2bcalm on November 12, 2008, 05:10 PM
Awais, I just read that you want to flirt some females. That is a major sin bro, these ideas are whispers of shaytan. Bro, please lower the gaze and avoid the fitna. If you fear Zina, then get married to a pious sister in Islam.

:D

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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #58 - November 12, 2008, 05:15 PM

There is no sin in flirting? show me chapter and verse.
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Re: Yet another 'Apostate'
Reply #59 - November 12, 2008, 05:19 PM

elle, take it easy. We are not concerned about sin.

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