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 Topic: Your Muslim background

 (Read 25236 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Your Muslim background
     OP - October 24, 2008, 09:40 PM
    I posed this question to Zeaphon(?) in the my introduction thread, but thought it might be better placed here - as an open question to all.

    The notion of "leaving" islam, for me, is a strange one. I move in all sorts of muslim and non-muslim circles - meeting the deeply irreligious, and the fanatically devout in the process. But not once, in my 23 years on this planet, have I met any man, women or child who has left the faith. I understand this could be for a number of reasons for this - fear of reprisal, losing family and freinds, general apathy towards critical thinking exhibited by muslims etc but I still find it odd that I am yet to meet an x-muslim. Even deeply secular Iranians (common as muck in the UK) seem to express, however loosely, an allegience to Islam. 

    In light of the above, I wanted to establish the relationship the x-muslim had with his religion? Was it indifference from the start? Was it a culturally oppressive practise, misunderstood as islamic, which triggered the "defection"? Were your parents religious? If so, how do you define their religiousity? What is your cultural background? WHat type of freinds did you have? Were you beaten by Mullahs at the mosque?

    Thanks,

    Hassan1
    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #1 - October 24, 2008, 09:57 PM
    Quote from: Hassan1
    Even deeply secular Iranians (common as muck in the UK) seem to express, however loosely, an allegience to Islam.

     Really?

    Maybe you didn't meet the right type. The first taxi driver I've met when I was in Germany was an Iranian expat, who was extremely critical of Islam. In his scant English, he tried to explain that Allah does not exist. The opposition forums are full of apostates who want to rid Iran from Islam forever. In their nationalist language, Islam is a legacy of the Arab invaders who destroyed their Persian civilisation. There are plenty of apostates in Turkey too. If you inspect any dedicated secularist closely enough, chances are that you'll find a closet apostate.

    Apostates exist, it's just that there's too much pressure on them, not to mention frequent death threats. See this comment from the website below:

    "How we never learn from history. To think that these goons will have a fate worse that the previous regime. The only good thing is that with the removal of the Islamic regime, Islam and Mohamadism will be possibly forever removed from Persia."

    http://www.iranian.com/
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #2 - October 24, 2008, 09:58 PM
    Zaephon posted this elsehwere, but I thought it would be better answered here - for sake of continuity.

    Quote from: Zaephon on October 24, 2008, 09:25 PM
    Hello Hassan1,

    I have to admit my family was not quite that religious, but I have some pretty conservative kin, so I had my share of Islam at childhood. I don't think the results would be different if my family were more religious, to be honest, I would just suffer more. Back then, some things about Islam just didn't feel right. The actual apostasy came later.


    The emboldned is an interesting point. Although you mention that the outcome would have been apostacy - regardless of your up-bringing - im not necessarily sure that this would be the case. It seems to me that anybody totally and completley immersed in a way of life is far less likely to "stray" than say, somebody who hasnt been.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #3 - October 24, 2008, 10:01 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on October 24, 2008, 09:57 PM
    Quote from: Hassan1
    Even deeply secular Iranians (common as muck in the UK) seem to express, however loosely, an allegience to Islam.

     Really?

    Maybe you didn't meet the right type.



    I obviously havent :-) Though I dont think the views of secular UK-based iranians is in any way indicative of the religiosity of Iranians currently living in Iran...meh. Maybe im wrong..something for another topic me thinks.
    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #4 - October 24, 2008, 10:04 PM
    Quote from: Hassan1 on October 24, 2008, 09:58 PM
    Zaephon posted this elsehwere, but I thought it would be better answered here - for sake of continuity.

    Quote from: Zaephon on October 24, 2008, 09:25 PM
    Hello Hassan1,

    I have to admit my family was not quite that religious, but I have some pretty conservative kin, so I had my share of Islam at childhood. I don't think the results would be different if my family were more religious, to be honest, I would just suffer more. Back then, some things about Islam just didn't feel right. The actual apostasy came later.


    The emboldned is an interesting point. Although you mention that the outcome would have been apostacy - regardless of your up-bringing - im not necessarily sure that this would be the case. It seems to me that anybody totally and completley immersed in a way of life is far less likely to "stray" than say, somebody who hasnt been.





    yes I agree. For a voiciferous 'apostate' Zaephon seems to have been a rather weak muslim.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #5 - October 24, 2008, 10:08 PM
    Quote from: Hassan1
    The emboldned is an interesting point. Although you mention that the outcome would have been apostacy - regardless of your up-bringing - im not necessarily sure that this would be the case. It seems to me that anybody totally and completley immersed in a way of life is far less likely to "stray" than say, somebody who hasnt been.

     Perhaps. It is futile to discuss scenarios that have never taken place, and never will. I know Turkish apostates who were born into much more religious circles, but who oppose Islam just because they despise their parents. I can recall another example where one brother became a fundamentalist fanatic, and the other an atheist --the children of moderately conservative parents. Such things happen.
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #6 - October 24, 2008, 11:13 PM
    Quote from: Hassan1 on October 24, 2008, 09:58 PM
    It seems to me that anybody totally and completley immersed in a way of life is far less likely to "stray" than say, somebody who hasnt been.




    Not really, my parents were extremely Islamic and I was immersed in that way of life for all of my childhood and all the way up until 29 yrs old. 

    You also have another member here called hassan who was an islamic school teacher and again compltely immersed in that way of life and yet here we are, ex muslims.

    Perhaps the truth is that "out there" in the real world you are even less likely to have a conversation with an ex muslim in which they would immediately admit to it?

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #7 - October 25, 2008, 03:10 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on October 24, 2008, 11:13 PM

    Not really, my parents were extremely Islamic and I was immersed in that way of life for all of my childhood and all the way up until 29 yrs old. 

    You also have another member here called hassan who was an islamic school teacher and again compltely immersed in that way of life and yet here we are, ex muslims.

    Perhaps the truth is that "out there" in the real world you are even less likely to have a conversation with an ex muslim in which they would immediately admit to it?



    May I ask how you define "immersion" within this context? Did you pray 5 times a day, fast, visit the mosque etc? If yes, did you do this of yor own accord? Or were you coerced into it by overzealous parents/siblngs?
    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #8 - October 25, 2008, 03:11 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on October 24, 2008, 10:08 PM
    Perhaps. It is futile to discuss scenarios that have never taken place, and never will. I know Turkish apostates who were born into much more religious circles, but who oppose Islam just because they despise their parents. I can recall another example where one brother became a fundamentalist fanatic, and the other an atheist --the children of moderately conservative parents. Such things happen.


    Agreed. Hypothetical scenarios (coulda, woulda, shoulda) are normally not worth discussing.
    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #9 - October 25, 2008, 03:19 PM
    Quote from: Hassan1 on October 25, 2008, 03:10 PM


    May I ask how you define "immersion" within this context? Did you pray 5 times a day, fast, visit the mosque etc? If yes, did you do this of yor own accord? Or were you coerced into it by overzealous parents/siblngs?


    Well I went through phases where I did it with my whole heart and of my own accord, where I truly felt like I touched something when I prayed and there were times where it was forced upon me, either by husband, parents, or simply the fear of hell.

    I was a naive believer, a hopeful optimist and it was a severe lack of education that ever made it possible for me to believe wholeheartedly at times, for had I known then what I know now I would have given up the battle sooner.

    I covered up willingly and played my part with belief in my heart at times, but then the people around me would become more forceful in educating me and reminding me of my status, of what it means to be a woman in islam, and so I decided to prove these people wrong, to find proof in the original islamic texts that they were wrong and that Islam was beautiful and supportive of women, it was an eye opening journey after that and of course one that led me to reject it all and to reject them all.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #10 - October 25, 2008, 03:41 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on October 25, 2008, 03:19 PM
    Well I went through phases where I did it with my whole heart and of my own accord, where I truly felt like I touched something when I prayed and there were times where it was forced upon me, either by husband, parents, or simply the fear of hell.

    I was a naive believer, a hopeful optimist and it was a severe lack of education that ever made it possible for me to believe wholeheartedly at times, for had I known then what I know now I would have given up the battle sooner.

    I covered up willingly and played my part with belief in my heart at times, but then the people around me would become more forceful in educating me and reminding me of my status, of what it means to be a woman in islam, and so I decided to prove these people wrong, to find proof in the original islamic texts that they were wrong and that Islam was beautiful and supportive of women, it was an eye opening journey after that and of course one that led me to reject it all and to reject them all.


    So to summarise, it was the attitudes of the people you lived with - your most treasured and trusted - who forced you on to a crash course against the religion?

    Was it soley the apparent "lack" of womens rights in islam that forced you to leave? Or was that just the proverbial straw that broke the camels back? Did you have any deeply phillosophical contentions with the underlying teachings of islam (strict monotheism)?
    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #11 - October 25, 2008, 03:58 PM
    Quote from: Hassan1 on October 25, 2008, 03:41 PM


    So to summarise, it was the attitudes of the people you lived with - your most treasured and trusted - who forced you on to a crash course against the religion?


    No not against, it was a crash course FOR, I had no idea that I was about to open pandoras box.  What they said about Islam upset me, what I found out was they were right.

    Quote

    Was it soley the apparent "lack" of womens rights in islam that forced you to leave? Or was that just the proverbial straw that broke the camels back? Did you have any deeply phillosophical contentions with the underlying teachings of islam (strict monotheism)?


    It wasn't quite the proverbial straw, because I was raised to be a self hating woman, "can I go out and play mum" = "no, you are not a boy" you soon begin to resent being a female, if you are riased being told women are stupid, then you may find it easier to stomach being second rate and meaningless, the only value in your virginity, ability to breed and ability to please your husband.

    No, see what broke the camel/straw/back was the life of mohammed, was the role model I was meant to wish for in a husband, was the intolerance to those choosing a path outside of abraham, was the hatred towards all things Jewish (human), was the sanctifying of slavery when waging war in the name of Islam. 

    Even the monotheism, the idea of god was a difficult concept to fully embrace, always asking if one made us then who made the one, if we can not exist without creation, then doesn't the same apply to "him".  But you can dismiss those musings at times with a mental squish on those ideas, "I can not understand everything with my human mind"

    Once the religion fell apart in pieces so did the belief in god.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #12 - October 25, 2008, 04:14 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on October 25, 2008, 03:58 PM
    It wasn't quite the proverbial straw, because I was raised to be a self hating woman, "can I go out and play mum" = "no, you are not a boy" you soon begin to resent being a female, if you are riased being told women are stupid, then you may find it easier to stomach being second rate and meaningless, the only value in your virginity, ability to breed and ability to please your husband.



    I wanted to share a very different perspective of a muslim woman.

    My darling sister, 5 years my senior, was always the smart one of the family. She was the kindest. The prettyest. The second mum. The strong woman - encouraged into education and employment by a doting father who loved her dearly. She was from a Muslim family who valued the role of women. And there are many more like her today. My family and extended family is testament to that.

    May I ask what your relationship with your family is now?


    Quote
    No, see what broke the camel/straw/back was the life of mohammed, was the role model I was meant to wish for in a husband, was the intolerance to those choosing a path outside of abraham, was the hatred towards all things Jewish (human), was the sanctifying of slavery when waging war in the name of Islam. 

    Even the monotheism, the idea of god was a difficult concept to fully embrace, always asking if one made us then who made the one, if we can not exist without creation, then doesn't the same apply to "him".  But you can dismiss those musings at times with a mental squish on those ideas, "I can not understand everything with my human mind"

    Once the religion fell apart in pieces so did the belief in god.

     

    I'll address this later.
    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #13 - October 25, 2008, 04:16 PM
    Quote from: Hassan1 on October 24, 2008, 09:58 PM
    It seems to me that anybody totally and completley immersed in a way of life is far less likely to "stray" than say, somebody who hasnt been.

    Not spoken to your namesake on these boards then, have you!?
    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #14 - October 25, 2008, 04:23 PM
    Quote from: Pazuzu on October 25, 2008, 04:16 PM
    Quote from: Hassan1 on October 24, 2008, 09:58 PM
    It seems to me that anybody totally and completley immersed in a way of life is far less likely to "stray" than say, somebody who hasnt been.

    Not spoken to your namesake on these boards then, have you!?


    I havent, no. But I am led to believe that he was quite the Muslim at one point in his life.
    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #15 - October 25, 2008, 04:23 PM
    Quote from: Hassan1 on October 25, 2008, 04:14 PM


    I wanted to share a very different perspective of a muslim woman.

    My darling sister, 5 years my senior, was always the smart one of the family. She was the kindest. The prettyest. The second mum. The strong woman - encouraged into education and employment by a doting father who loved her dearly. She was from a Muslim family who valued the role of women. And there are many more like her today. My family and extended family is testament to that.


    A modern muslim, a muslim who has changed what is islamically acceptable to fit their world view.  I know that perspective, I just never agreed with it, it always seemed so pointless.  Reinterpreting texts to maintain belief wouldn't work for me.

    Quote
    May I ask what your relationship with your family is now?


    I speak on the phone with my step mother once every 6 months or so, but my relationship with them is flat and dead.  They only continue to "accept" (and I use that term lightly) me because they are convinced I am insane and therefore not going to judged when I die lol  they don't want to accept my apostasy.

    But my relationship has always been strained with my family, it wasn't a happy family or happy memories, not by a long shot.  My relationship with my ex husband is murderous lol if he could get away with it I have no doubt he would end my life.





    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #16 - October 25, 2008, 04:36 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on October 25, 2008, 04:23 PM

    I speak on the phone with my step mother once every 6 months or so, but my relationship with them is flat and dead.  They only continue to "accept" (and I use that term lightly) me because they are convinced I am insane and therefore not going to judged when I die lol  they don't want to accept my apostasy.

    But my relationship has always been strained with my family, it wasn't a happy family or happy memories, not by a long shot.  My relationship with my ex husband is murderous lol if he could get away with it I have no doubt he would end my life.


    I genuinely feel for you. I cannot imagine what it must have felt like to have had to deal with such hostility in your life.



    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #17 - October 25, 2008, 09:40 PM
    This is amusing. Hassan1, you're taking the party line here. I understand why you're doing it but really it's a tired old game that all the apostates here have seen many times. You probably don't realise this and are not doing it on purpose, but the tired old game always starts with the assumption that people who left Islam were "never really Muslims". That's the initial aspersion and it goes on from there.

    You're now at the second stage where since you can no longer deny that some of these people would have met your criteria for being "real Muslims" you have to apportion the blame elsewhere (while of course still holding the "never a real Muslim" jibe in reserve for those that have not yet proved themselves to you).

    So now it becomes "the fault is not within Islam but with the people surrounding you who call themselves Muslims" combined with (explicitly or implicitly) "you were too weak/distracted/uneducated/stupid to see through this".

    This is all standard operating procedure for devout Muslims faced with the presence of apostates. Like I said it's quite understandable that you would react like this, but I thought you should be made aware of it. What you are displaying is merely your own set of defense mechanisms. I must say though that you are being particularly civil about it.

    ETA: I'll add, before you ask, that personally I do not have a Muslim background except very distantly (ie Muslim ancestors). I'm just commenting on what I've seen many times.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #18 - October 25, 2008, 09:51 PM
    Well done Os.

    I'm glad someone said this.

    I was thinking about Hassan1's posts on the way to Burger King this evening and the conclusion I came to was that yourself, Berbella and others on this forum are total saints.

    I hope Hassan1 appreciates the fact that you guys take the time to even type a response to this worn out tactic.

    And a message to Hassan1, in case you didn't know the approach you've taken comes across as both smartarsey and frankly a bit creepy.
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #19 - October 25, 2008, 09:57 PM
    Hassan1, I would like to have a discussion with you about any good thread or subject from the koran. Any from your choice, I do not want a silly verse, i want a subject that you think is good in the koran and you would like to talk about it.

    You are welcome to refer to stuff other people posted, but all the words you use from them have to be your own. Any subject you want, marriage, women, fascism, crime & punishment, morality, ethics, anything, I am sure there is at least One good subject you know from the koran. Let me know and I can open a thread or you can open a thread directly.

    6200 verses, written by a transcendent being. The book should be your strongest asset. Just take the book and open randomly at any page, maybe you will find a subject.

    I am also curious to know, in practice, who do you know, other then the first arabs ammawids/abbasids who got the koran in their society and it improved them? It made them better? Which Khalifa or muslim ruler from the last 1400yrs, you would want to bring back? what is this book that, anytime a society gets in their midst, that society deteriorates. what is up with that?
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #20 - October 26, 2008, 09:36 AM
    Quote from: speaklow
    I hope Hassan1 appreciates the fact that you guys take the time to even type a response to this worn out tactic.

     He's pretty civil, though. Let's just point out to the errors in the same civil language. Besides, I believe he's pretty genuine about what he's saying, it's just that he's unaware yet his reactions are just defence mechanisms.
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #21 - October 26, 2008, 09:50 AM
    Quote from: Hassan1 on October 25, 2008, 03:10 PM
    May I ask how you define "immersion" within this context? Did you pray 5 times a day, fast, visit the mosque etc? If yes, did you do this of yor own accord? Or were you coerced into it by overzealous parents/siblngs?


    I was a convert of a little more than five years. I sincerely believed with all my heart, mind, and soul that Islam was the truth. And I didn't disbelieve due to ignorance, or some emotion. I was heartbroken when Islam broke for me. I finally feel I have recovered, but it's taken a long time for me to mourn the death of God.

    Here is a list of my problems with Islam. Some of it are just points I've made without citing references, if there is anything specific you want more clarification I will get them for you, I've just been lazy.

    Those have been my obstacles to Iman, my stack of questions with no answers. If you think you can answer them, please, I welcome you to.
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #22 - October 26, 2008, 07:35 PM
    Hassan,

    I was raised by educated, middle class Iraqi Muslim parents who had come to Britain in their late 20s, fleeing Saddam. I've had a comfortable and happy upbringing and am one of four siblings, second oldest. My parents taught us Islam at home, and sent us to sunday schools and eventually a faith school, which I attended for 8 years until I graduated onto university. My parents are quite progressive, and so never hit us once, and were also permissive, so we never had strict bed times, didn't get grounded or sent to our rooms and ate whatever and whenever we wanted by their own encouragement!

    I was a very zealous and idealistic child, so always prayed on time since the age of 4, even though I didn't have to. I was never 'told' to pray. I always did it by myself, and same with fasting. I even had to beg my mum to let me fast once when I had been sick, and I started wearing the hijab at the age of 8 of my own free will.

    My religiosity had a bit of a downturn as an adolescent. I started listening to music and delaying my prayers, going on about boys and sex like all teenagers. But that's as far as it ever went. After my adolescence, I wised up and became religious again, with a spiritual element and became interested in mystical schools of Islam. I also developed a more liberal and tolerant intepretation of the faith. I believed religious morals were a social good, but I didn't label and judge people. We were all God's children in my hippy world view. This state of being lasted until I was 19 when I began to seriously doubt that Islam was God's message to man, because, to summarise, it was all a bit too simplistic. I could never believe again that the Quran was God's perfect and most important message to man that he gave to the world by whispering it to Muhammed.

    I carried on as a cultural Muslim for 6 years until I decided to outwardly and fully deny Islam 5 months ago. I still live with my parents.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #23 - October 26, 2008, 08:35 PM
    Oh, and my parents are very devout and politically moderate, depsite the fact they were members of an Islamist party in Iraq and still think of Khomeini with fondness.

    So you could kinda say I was 'immersed' in Islam.  Afro
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #24 - October 26, 2008, 10:41 PM
    Hassan1,  What do u think now, after reading all these posts, did you met someone or still alone Huh?Huh?Huh?
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #25 - October 26, 2008, 11:23 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on October 25, 2008, 09:40 PM
    This is amusing. Hassan1, you're taking the party line here. I understand why you're doing it but really it's a tired old game that all the apostates here have seen many times. You probably don't realise this and are not doing it on purpose, but the tired old game always starts with the assumption that people who left Islam were "never really Muslims". That's the initial aspersion and it goes on from there.

    You're now at the second stage where since you can no longer deny that some of these people would have met your criteria for being "real Muslims" you have to apportion the blame elsewhere (while of course still holding the "never a real Muslim" jibe in reserve for those that have not yet proved themselves to you).

    So now it becomes "the fault is not within Islam but with the people surrounding you who call themselves Muslims" combined with (explicitly or implicitly) "you were too weak/distracted/uneducated/stupid to see through this".

    This is all standard operating procedure for devout Muslims faced with the presence of apostates. Like I said it's quite understandable that you would react like this, but I thought you should be made aware of it. What you are displaying is merely your own set of defense mechanisms. I must say though that you are being particularly civil about it.

    ETA: I'll add, before you ask, that personally I do not have a Muslim background except very distantly (ie Muslim ancestors). I'm just commenting on what I've seen many times.


    I have to go to bed soon, so I'll make this brief.

    My intentions for signing on to this forum are, I believe, sincere. I am not here to follow a party line, nor take a harsh dogmatic view on your lifestyle choices. I see this more as a fact-finding mission than anything else - something that I hope to learn and broaden my horizons from.

    Although it may seem as though I am playing a "tired old game", it is anything but for me. This is a new experience - I am talking to a subset of individuals who i wouldnt usually come accross in my day-to-day life - so please, bere with me. I will, no doubt post tired and old questions in the process, but thats just the fun that comes along with dealing with inquisitive so and so's!

    Hassan1
    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #26 - October 26, 2008, 11:35 PM
    That's fair comment. I just thought I'd point out that, as they say, "we've seen it all before".   
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #27 - October 30, 2008, 05:10 AM
    Quote

    It seems to me that anybody totally and completley immersed in a way of life is far less likely to "stray" than say, somebody who hasnt been.


    Uh, wrong.  As someone who is still Muslim, you must afford your own religion and it's people the same eye that you afford Christianity. By this, I am referring to the piles and piles of books and articles and so on that talk about how so and so was a devout Christian or staunch atheist before 'embracing' Islam.  Muslim dawahgandists often make a specific point of talking about how strong these converts were in their previous religion to circumvent any claim from others that the only reason they could have 'embraced' Islam is that they didn't know enough about Christianity or whatever to make an informed choice.

    In the interest of fairness, you need to do the same when confronted with the reality of the existence of former Muslims.

    Here is the truth, Hassan1.  Some ex Muslims were raised or lived completely secular 'hedonistic' lifestyles. Some ex Muslims are completely ignorant about the religion other than some vague notions about the five pillars. And some ex Muslims had full beards or wore niqab.  And some ex Muslims were very devout, even schooled in the religion beyond what the regular people learn. 

    You say that this isn't a game to you and it's all new to you, but for those of us on this side, not only is it stuff we've heard before but it is often stuff we've said to ourselves. If only we were more devout, if we could just learn a little more about the deen, if only we could do some more zikr, we wouldn't have these nagging doubts about Islam or the existence of God.  Believe me, we've all been here and done it before and often the toughest questions from a Muslim came from ourselves, not from those who not so secretly hope to bring us back into the fold.
    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #28 - October 30, 2008, 04:42 PM
    Well I guess I can add my 2 cents. As a convert I was very immersed in the religion, and completely of my own desire/choice (i.e. it wasn't my family that made me practice etc). For virtually my entire time as a Muslim, clear up until the very minute I finally realized it was all a joke, I sincerely believed it was the absolute truth and I was sure I would be a Muslim my entire life. I was shocked when I realized I didn't believe in it anymore, though not heartbroken or anything. Mostly just pissed off that I'd wasted so much of my life following such boring rules and rituals.

    Perhaps the fact that I converted and practiced on my own makes my de-conversion different from those ex-Muslims who were raised in the religion and have Muslim family. But for what it's worth, I am yet another previously devout Muslim who has indeed "left" Islam in the sense that I now know it's all utter nonsense, and I have no connection (nor desire to have) to the religion aside from a handful of Muslims who still don't know I've left and I'm sure will disown me as a friend once they find out.
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #29 - October 31, 2008, 07:15 PM
    In reponse to fading, I'm sure for some it's the opposite. It is their very devotion, not their lack of it, that brought them to realise the glaring truth: that religions are nothing other than political and social structures couched in supernatural mythology, created and developed by historical accident.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell
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