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 Topic: Mo, not a pedophile?

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  • Mo, not a pedophile?
     OP - October 29, 2008, 09:49 PM

    http://apostate.wordpress.com/2007/01/21/islams-lolita/
    Quote
    Islam’s Lolita
    Posted on January 21, 2007 by apostate

    53-year-old Muhammad’s marriage to 9-year-old Aisha has been the subject of much debate. This is my take on the Aisha problem in Islam. For it is a huge problem.

    Muhammad was not a pedophile — and although I recognize that he could still possibly have behaved like one in one instance in a lifetime, he did not do so in Aisha’s case. If Aisha had NOT developed secondary sexual characteristics when Muhammad “consummated his marriage” with her, he would be guilty of that aberrant behavior. Yes, she was unusually young. But she was inescapably pubescent and the word ‘pedophile’ is simply inaccurate. Also, his relationship with her lasted into her adulthood and was evidently the most sexual as compared with the rest of his wives. He was moved by her youth — but not by her childishness. Sounds like a normal sexuality to me.

    The moral crime really lies in Muhammad’s role as a setter of precedent. With Aisha’s early initiation into sex and marriage, he set the precedent for all future followers in all ages that the onset of menstruation marks sexual readiness in girls: this is a medically, socially and psychologically harmful position to hold.

    That’s Muhammad’s moral crime, of which he was of course completely unaware, not being the prophet of God. And that’s what Muslims have to face and refute: a prophet of god setting a harmful precedent.

    There was a more immediate moral crime in his marriage to Aisha, and that was the harm caused to Aisha herself. This is trickier territory, but I will take my cue from a highly sensitive rendition of the internal life of a modern-day Aisha:

    Lolita.

    She was a ‘nymphet,’ as I suspect Aisha was — girls who are early on not so much aware of their sexuality, but have hit puberty and almost unconsciously adopt certain womanly traits as they move towards becoming women. They hold a certain sexual attraction for say, ephebophiles, who are far more common than pedophiles and whose sexuality is also more fluid between pubescent children and adult women.

    [Almost all traditional Arab men, in my experience, are ephebophiles and to a certain extent, this could be a culturally learned attitude.]

    But the moral crime in Lolita is not early sexualization of her by an adult man, as she was already experimenting sexually and was very sexually self-aware. The moral crime was the adult act of inhibiting her sexuality to be restricted ONLY to him, preventing her from even socializing because of jealous fears (ring a bell?). Essentially, she was a child; emotionally, she wasn’t ready for a full-fledged ‘relationship’ with an adult with all the power imbalance of such an arrangement. She was robbed of a normal childhood.

    Much the same can be said for Aisha: she was robbed of a childhood. She was initiated without consent into a cult, both of polygamy and of Islam, and made to bear the burden of that for the rest of her life — she couldn’t have a sexual relationship after Muhammad’s death (when Aisha was only 18) and so for most of her long life, she was deprived of that which had formed the cornerstone of her most formative years (sex). That’s a moral crime. And for what? Posthumous jealousy.

    I feel morally appalled by what Muhammad did to Aisha. At the same time, I cannot help but acknowledge that my being (subjectively) morally outraged at it has about the same relevance in a debate about religion and ethics as say, the moral outrage some people feel when I say I have sexual desire for men twice my age. Still, the fact that people of ordinary morality are immediately shocked by the act of an alleged prophet of God, speaks volumes.

    The Muslims who try to excuse Muhammad’s act, and the non-Muslims who are ‘understanding’ of his weakness, allege that this was a common thing in that era, hence couldn’t be “immoral” as morality is a social construct that changes with time and place. I agree with that last bit but the gall of Muslims using moral relativism is astounding - people who believe in an eternal religion suddenly abandon absolute morality when it suits them.

    I’ll be the first to admit that in matters of sex and sexuality, the lines are arbitrary; the morality is fuzzy. But fuzzy morality is OUR prerogative, as infidels. Not the Muslims’.

    For extremely well-researched and concrete Islamic refutations of those who’d rather deny the evidence of the ahadith than admit that Aisha was a child when Muhammad took her to his bed, see here.



    I came across this blog and it's interesting but I don't know what to make of this entry. What do you think?

    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #1 - October 29, 2008, 09:54 PM

    She makes sense, I argued this years ago. She's a feminist too. I'd hit that.
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #2 - October 29, 2008, 09:55 PM

    Umm..since when did you dig feminists?

    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #3 - October 29, 2008, 09:56 PM


    Quote
    Islam’s Lolita
    Posted on January 21, 2007 by apostate

    53-year-old Muhammad’s marriage to 9-year-old Aisha has been the subject of much debate. This is my take on the Aisha problem in Islam. For it is a huge problem.

    Muhammad was not a pedophile — and although I recognize that he could still possibly have behaved like one in one instance in a lifetime, he did not do so in Aisha’s case. If Aisha had NOT developed secondary sexual characteristics when Muhammad “consummated his marriage” with her, he would be guilty of that aberrant behavior. Yes, she was unusually young. But she was inescapably pubescent and the word ‘pedophile’ is simply inaccurate. Also, his relationship with her lasted into her adulthood and was evidently the most sexual as compared with the rest of his wives. He was moved by her youth — but not by her childishness. Sounds like a normal sexuality to me.


    Wrong, Islam forbids dolls to anyone over the age of puberty and yet Aisha would play with her dolls and her friends whilst married to Mohammed.  She was pre pubescent.

    Quote



    There was a more immediate moral crime in his marriage to Aisha, and that was the harm caused to Aisha herself. This is trickier territory, but I will take my cue from a highly sensitive rendition of the internal life of a modern-day Aisha:

    Lolita.

    She was a ‘nymphet,’ as I suspect Aisha was — girls who are early on not so much aware of their sexuality, but have hit puberty and almost unconsciously adopt certain womanly traits as they move towards becoming women. They hold a certain sexual attraction for say, ephebophiles, who are far more common than pedophiles and whose sexuality is also more fluid between pubescent children and adult women.


    there is nothing to suggest that this was the case with Aisha, she even speaks of how little she knew when he came for her, plus of course she played with her dolls.



    I think other than that it's a good article, she isn't trying to mislead anyone and admits it was wrong but the moral arguement is weak.

    It was an immoral act by our standards, we are judging him by our standards, if we judge things by the old standards nothing would be immoral about it and we would have progressed nowhere.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #4 - October 29, 2008, 10:18 PM

    So if you played with a doll, and I had sex with you, it would mean you are prepubescent.

    *Shakes head* INFP logic.

    Furthermore, people with a paraphilia have an nonexistent capacity for affectionate, reciprocal emotional and sexual intimacy with a partner. If we refer to the hadith we can understand Mohamed did not show any of these characteristics. In fact this is one of the most successful men in history if he had a paraphilia he would not be able to function basically he would have been a bum we've never heard of the fact that 1400 years on we are debating about the life of the prophet Mohamed proves he was not a pedophile.

    Even for the sake of argument we agree on this that pedophiles are attracted to children and adults. It still means 'children' Mohamed was married to only ONE Aisha. It was not like he was scared he would be arrested he could have had sex with more 'children' you know there is a difference in children and child. You don't become a pedophile when you like it, its not like a light switch if you're a pedophile you're always a pedophile and prefer children. Therefore based on the definition of a pedophile we cannot claim Mohammad was a pedophile as he does not fit the definition, I challenge anyone to prove me wrong, only using logic.

    Pedophilia is a preference for sexual activity with prepubertal children see ref for longer definition. Paraphilias are recurrent, intense, sexually arousing fantasies, urges, or behaviors that are distressing or disabling and that involve inanimate objects, children or other nonconsenting adults, or suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner.

    Ref-1: Merck Manual Professional - Paraphilias: Sexuality and Sexual Disorders: Pedophilia.


    Above, I have used the medically general accepted definition of pedophilia. This is the widely used definition and comes from MERCK MANUL which is accepted as one of the best medical manuals available.

    And in essence this is what she is trying to say! the term "pedophilia" does not fit.
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #5 - October 29, 2008, 10:22 PM

    Umm..since when did you dig feminists?


    Ha! good one. I don't discriminate on ideological differences when there is a shag on the plate!
    *Terms and Conditions Apply*
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #6 - October 29, 2008, 11:34 PM

    So if you played with a doll, and I had sex with you, it would mean you are prepubescent.

    *Shakes head* INFP logic.

    For a bloke who claims to ave an IQ of 147 you are remarkably obtuse at times.

    No Tut. However since Islam prohibits dolls for any girl who has hit puberty and since Mohammed was, shall we say, rather Islamic in his outlook and since Aisha was still playing with dolls not just on her wedding day but well after that I think it's fair to say that Aisha was pre-pubsecent when Mohammed first fucked her.

    Bear in mind that she was nine years old and forget all the rubbish about girls reaching puberty earlier in hot climates. There was that recent case of the girl in Yemen who demanded and got a divorce from her abusive husband. She was only Aisha's age and looking at her photo it is blatantly obvious that she hasn't hit puberty. She's just a normal little nine year old girl.

    If normal little nine year old girls are like that in Yemen, they'll be like that in Arabia.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #7 - October 30, 2008, 10:24 AM

    She had not developed secondary sexual traits.

    The marriage contract which was struck since she was 6 did not mention anything about her reaching puberty.
    Koran does not stipulate that puberty has to be reached.
    Few years later, when aisha started getting her period, we have muhammed explaining to aisha that the period is a curse on women.

    cheers,

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #8 - November 01, 2008, 01:02 AM

    Wrong, Islam forbids dolls to anyone over the age of puberty and yet Aisha would play with her dolls and her friends whilst married to Mohammed.  She was pre pubescent.

    Quote

    Is there a prohibition of playing with dolls post-puberty in islam? If so, where in the islamic texts is this stated?






    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #9 - November 01, 2008, 02:26 AM

    I don't have the reference myself (assuming Berbs is correct) but let's assume there is no such prohibition. You're still left with a man in his fifties screwing a nine year old girl. How is this a perfect example for all men for all time?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #10 - November 01, 2008, 02:48 AM

    I don't have the reference myself (assuming Berbs is correct) but let's assume there is no such prohibition. You're still left with a man in his fifties screwing a nine year old girl. How is this a perfect example for all men for all time?

    Of course it's not but this is a bit of technicality.

    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #11 - November 01, 2008, 03:30 AM

    How so? Do you mean the bit about dolls is a technicality or do you mean something else is?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #12 - November 01, 2008, 04:44 PM


    Is there a prohibition of playing with dolls post-puberty in islam? If so, where in the islamic texts is this stated?




    Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151: Sahih al Bukhari

    Narrated 'Aisha:

    I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

    Book 008, Number 3311: Sahih Muslim

    'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #13 - November 01, 2008, 06:30 PM

    How so? Do you mean the bit about dolls is a technicality or do you mean something else is?

    Whether or not Aisha was actually sexually mature doesn't change the fact that she was a 9 year old. That's what I see as a technicality because even if she did start menstruating, I doubt she was fully developed. I don't think it's possible be fully mature at the age of 9. And the primitive idea of how sexual 'maturity' equals real maturity. I think not.

    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #14 - November 01, 2008, 07:50 PM

    The mere fact that anyone, except a certain party whose grip on reality is tenuous to say the least, is talking technicalities about whether it's OK to have sex with a child just goes to show how lamentably behind modern morals, decency and notions of Human Rights  Islam still is.
    Get your heads out of that mouldy fucking book you depraved saddos and have a look at the UN  and EU Charters on Human Rights.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #15 - November 06, 2008, 10:18 PM


    Is there a prohibition of playing with dolls post-puberty in islam? If so, where in the islamic texts is this stated?




    Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151: Sahih al Bukhari

    Narrated 'Aisha:

    I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

    Book 008, Number 3311: Sahih Muslim

    'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.


    Berbs, your fucking stupid at times, do you even know how to interpret what you quote? words in the brackets are (commentary) which was added later, much later in fact.

    playing with dolls was the only "entrainment" folks had back then, the prohibition was on dolls with painted faces, dolls which had faces, such as eyes, mouth, nose etc, that is what was prohibited, not the actual playing with a dolls. Its your lack of understanding of Islam which is the problem....   
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #16 - November 06, 2008, 10:23 PM

    the prohibition was on dolls with painted faces, dolls which had faces, such as eyes, mouth, nose etc, that is what was prohibited, not the actual playing with a dolls. Its your lack of understanding of Islam which is the problem....   


    Okay, Mr.Sweetgenius..where is your proof? 

    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #17 - November 06, 2008, 10:43 PM

    the prohibition was on dolls with painted faces, dolls which had faces, such as eyes, mouth, nose etc, that is what was prohibited, not the actual playing with a dolls. Its your lack of understanding of Islam which is the problem....   


    Okay, Mr.Sweetgenius..where is your proof? 


    Images are forbidden in Islam, due to them having human features such as face, in Islam images of the face is banned, but not the body parts. Hence where ever you see Islamic vandalism on Buddhist/Pagan idols you will see the heads removed or faces scratched out.

    In Pakistan, there are dolls which don't have eyes, nose, mouth, and ears, but none the less dolls, these are the dolls which Aisha played with... Only dolls with which were anthromorphic where phorbitten.   
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #18 - November 06, 2008, 10:45 PM

    In Islam anthropomorphizing is banned, that is my proof.
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #19 - November 07, 2008, 08:13 AM


    Is there a prohibition of playing with dolls post-puberty in islam? If so, where in the islamic texts is this stated?




    Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151: Sahih al Bukhari

    Narrated 'Aisha:

    I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

    Book 008, Number 3311: Sahih Muslim

    'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.


    Berbs, your fucking stupid at times, do you even know how to interpret what you quote? words in the brackets are (commentary) which was added later, much later in fact.

    playing with dolls was the only "entrainment" folks had back then, the prohibition was on dolls with painted faces, dolls which had faces, such as eyes, mouth, nose etc, that is what was prohibited, not the actual playing with a dolls. Its your lack of understanding of Islam which is the problem....   

    Very nice language there Tuts. I have learned that muslims will always swear when they are "Ala Hafa Shiffa Min Narin" "At the edge of a pit of fire", and you are no exception to them. Just as Stupid and dumb and subdued as your religion wants you and your family and future kids to be.

    Where does the shape of the doll matter in Berb's argument?
    Where does it matter if the doll had facial features or not?


    And for that you called another person "fucking stupid"?
    Can we get rid of this useless blogger already?

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #20 - November 07, 2008, 11:15 PM



    This is Mohamed, the face is blanked out, this is what I am talking about. The actual images were not banned, but the faces were banned, same with dolls, later this was radicalized and total ban was placed on images, these images were drawn by Muslims sometime in the 16th century.
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #21 - November 07, 2008, 11:57 PM

    Bollocks. It is common in early Islamic art for other people's faces to be depicted but Mohammed's face to be obscured, either by a veil or sometimes by flames/halo.

    You appear to have deliberately chosen a misleading example.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #22 - November 08, 2008, 02:01 AM

    It started from there, when Muslims saw Mo's face blanked out, they started implementing later on to blank out anyones face, which eventually led to total ban on images.
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #23 - November 08, 2008, 04:09 AM

    Perhaps, in which case you're still knackered regarding Aisha's dolls. Since she came from the very earliest part of the Islamic period her dolls would not have been affected by later prohibitions.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #24 - November 08, 2008, 04:32 AM

    I think Berbs' point was that dolls, with or without faces, were only allowed for pre-pubescent girls.  Which makes Tutsie's whole posting history in this thread a huge, long, red herring.


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #25 - November 08, 2008, 04:49 AM

    Yes I know. I was just shooting holes in his rubbish about faces for amusement.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #26 - November 08, 2008, 11:02 AM

    I think Berbs' point was that dolls, with or without faces, were only allowed for pre-puescent girls.  Which makes Tutsie's whole posting history in this thread a huge, long, red herring.



    There was no ban on dolls at all, that is a later addition to the hadith, that is commontry on the hadith.
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #27 - November 08, 2008, 02:49 PM

    http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Aisha's_Age_of_Consummation

    Indepth look at the whole doll issue, the commentary and where it comes from etc etc.

     Roll Eyes

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #28 - November 08, 2008, 09:16 PM

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    This is Mohamed, the face is blanked out, this is what I am talking about. The actual images were not banned, but the faces were banned, same with dolls, later this was radicalized and total ban was placed on images, these images were drawn by Muslims sometime in the 16th century.

    You are engaging in a Red Herring. It does not matter if the dolls had a face or not. Berberella's point is not based on whether the dolls had a face or not. Her point is based on the fact that dolls existed in the little girl's hands.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Mo, not a pedophile?
     Reply #29 - November 08, 2008, 10:01 PM

    http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Aisha's_Age_of_Consummation

    Indepth look at the whole doll issue, the commentary and where it comes from etc etc.

     Roll Eyes


    Is this wiki not owned by a dude who claims to be an atheist and believes in UFOs and Aliens? and whose members post comments such as "nuke Muslims babies", "nuke mecca", "kill Muslims"? quoting a partisan website which lacks credibility does not give any validity to your argument. Its also a website known to make hadith up... Such as Mo thining Aisha as a kid, which is categorically proven to be a falsified hadith.   
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